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RE: Getting Started

 
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RE: Getting Started - 5/30/2014 6:22:50 PM   
HailRider

 

Posts: 86
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Status: offline 		I did instruct the unit to not fire. Another unit fired. The contact was red prior to them firing.

< Message edited by HailRider -- 5/30/2014 7:33:59 PM >

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Post #: 31
RE: Getting Started - 5/30/2014 9:19:41 PM   
HailRider

 

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Status: offline 		I am wondering why my ship is continuously engaging a whale? I turned off engage opportunity targets.

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Post #: 32
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 4:16:10 AM   
HailRider

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/11/2014
Status: offline 		Sorry, guys, but I was getting rather frustrated. I've since figured out a few things.

To stop pursuing a whale, mark it as Neutral.
The best info about the missiles is not from the boat description (i.e. mounts) where they give the maximum range, but rather the missile description where they give surface vs air ranges.

I still don't understand who does the illuminating. The firing unit? Can another unit illuminate for a second unit that actually launches the missile?

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Post #: 33
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 5:48:03 AM   
Tomcat84

 

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Status: offline 		That also depends on the weapon. Some weapons don't require illumination the whole time (mostly modern weapons) but there are many older weapons that need continuous illumination and in that case it generally needs to be the firing unit. But there are so many different weapons I guess it can be a bit confusing. If you post a few weapon types you are wondering about we could tell you a bit more about how the process works.

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Post #: 34
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 12:52:33 PM   
HailRider

 

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Status: offline 		But what is illumination?

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Post #: 35
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 1:07:29 PM   
Dimitris

 

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Status: offline 		Please read here for a primer on semi-active radar guidance and other related guidance methods:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-active_radar_homing
http://firecontrolman.tpub.com/14099/css/14099_26.htm
http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Radar-AAMs.html

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Post #: 36
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 1:42:34 PM   
HailRider

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/11/2014
Status: offline 		Seriously? There is no documentation, guidance, or easy way to explain it? Is this the case with other weapon systems, units, etc? Do you have to go to a military academy to play this game?

No wonder I'm having such a hard time with this game.

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Post #: 37
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 1:49:06 PM   
HailRider

 

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Status: offline 		I looked at the wiki. Illumination means that there is a radar shining on the target and is being reflected to the missile, right?

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Post #: 38
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 2:09:10 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
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Status: offline 		We have always pitched this game as an advanced air and naval warfare simulation because that is what it is. If you can find a post that says otherwise let me know.

That being said your point isn't lost. We should look into doing some modern air and naval warfare 101 type documentation at some point. Our challenge is finding the time while continuing to develop which is more important to 98 percent of our customers at this point. Can anybody in the community take this up? Maybe just a post explaining missile guidance types to start. We would greatly appreciate it. If not we'll take this up as soon as we can fit it in.

Thanks!

Mike


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Post #: 39
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 2:11:48 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HailRider

I looked at the wiki. Illumination means that there is a radar shining on the target and is being reflected to the missile, right?


Yes.

This article is a little better I think

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_guidance

Mike

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Post #: 40
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 4:17:00 PM   
HailRider

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/11/2014
Status: offline 		I understand what you are saying. Your current clients want more under the hood. So would/will I. But new clients want to learn how to drive. New clients will bring in more revenue, not old clients.

I really liked Harpoon, and I am an avid wargamer. I like complicated games, especially those with ongoing development. But without more instruction, reference, and guidance, this game may turn a lot of people off after 10 or so hours of trying. A few clear tables and point form instructions should do it.

As an example, I also play Combat Mission. It is quite complicated, but there is tons of documentation.

Thanks for listening.

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Post #: 41
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 4:18:59 PM   
HailRider

 

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Status: offline 		So, please confirm. Is illumination simply lighting up a target with any radar (including it's own)?

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Post #: 42
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 5:43:06 PM   
HailRider

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/11/2014
Status: offline 		Really, I am so close to giving up on this game.

$100 got me very poor documentation and clunky controls. Maybe under the hood is good, but I cannot find out how to play it. I have spent hours and hours trying to figure it out. (really, maybe 30 hours!!)

Now, I am stuck trying to figure out what illumination is, because without illuminating my target, my missiles won't fly. Using AI shooting, the missiles all go, but all miss the target. Then the target comes after me and my ship goes down.

The articles you both suggested were rather general. I need to know how to illuminate a target, and what illumination is.

The radar from my ship is on, does that not illuminate the target?

Really, I need some guidance here (pun intended)

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Post #: 43
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 5:46:03 PM   
RoryAndersonCDT

 

Posts: 1830
Joined: 6/16/2009
Status: offline 		I run a chatroom located here https://jabbr.net/#/rooms/baloogan and we could definitely help you out!

Illumination is kinda tricky and complicated; there are many different cases. The two main types of illumination is for semi active radar homing (Sparrow missiles) and laser guided bombs (laser illumination).

Usually the plane that launched the missiles has to stay mostly pointed at the target to guide them in. With laser guidance the plane that drops the bombs doesn't need to stick around if there are some helpful SEALs nearby with a laser.

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Post #: 44
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 6:01:07 PM   
HailRider

 

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Joined: 5/11/2014
Status: offline 		Thanks for trying to help.

So, illumination is not just a radar image. What is it?

I am playing coral magpie. The ship is a DDG guided missile destroyer. The missiles are a RIM 66M, and RIM 162A ESSM

Often I can't shoot because of 'OODA loop limitation'. (Something else not documented and totally confusing)
But the main question is 'no directors are able to illuminate this target'. What does this mean? The target is only 12nm away. F1 let's them fly, but they don't hit.
What is an operator, and how do I get him to illuminate the target?

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Post #: 45
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 6:22:36 PM   
RoryAndersonCDT

 

Posts: 1830
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Status: offline 		What are you trying to shoot at? If I had to guess you are trying to shoot a ship. Those missiles you listed are mostly for surface to air attacks. Radar illumination requires line of sight, and 12 nautical miles away your target could be below the horizon.

"OODA loop limitation" is a compressed way of saying "you need to wait before taking the shot". Older ships and less elite navies have longer times they need to wait before firing. OODA stands for something like "Observe o-something decide act" it means it takes a few seconds from seeing a missile to being able to attack that missile just due to how slow people are. For battleships in the 1950s these ooda loops are a minute and a half.






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Post #: 46
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 6:43:58 PM   
HailRider

 

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Status: offline 		I am shooting at a ship.
The missiles both have anti air and anti surface ranges on the description in the game. I assumed that meant you could shoot it at a surface ship (25nm). Is this not true?
If they are not for ships, what can I use for a ship? I can't use the Tamahawks (it took me a while to figure that out!!). The RUM is a torpedo, but you need to get close. The rest are guns. Are you saying this Guided Missile Destroyer does not carry any anti ship missiles?

OODA never seems to go away, even after the 10 seconds it tells me I have to wait. I can never shoot!!


Again, what is an illuminater, and how do I turn it on?

Thanks again

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Post #: 47
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 6:55:29 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
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Status: offline 		Frankly if you have been playing Harpoon and can't use google to figure out what illumination is, you probably have the wrong game. I played Harpoon and some flight simulators for about 10 years, but have not done so in 7-8 years. I know what illumination is. I found a definition of it within 1 minute of searching.

I also double-checked Harpoon manuals and there is very little in there on it. I think you're kind of sunk if you expect any complicated naval wargame to get down into those very basic concepts. Do the devs have to define the terms floating, guns, shell, etc. At some point, you might need to actually use the tutorials that Baloogan built for this express purpose.

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Post #: 48
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 6:59:46 PM   
HailRider

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/11/2014
Status: offline 		WOW. That's helpful.

You found out what it is in 1 minute, but won't tell me. Why not?

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Post #: 49
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 7:01:27 PM   
RoryAndersonCDT

 

Posts: 1830
Joined: 6/16/2009
Status: offline 		Yes, the USN doesn't have any good anti ship missiles right now. Lots of DDGs have no Harpoons. If the USN wants to sink a ship they call up the nearest sub.

An illuminator is a type of radar or laser that paints a target with energy for something else to track it with. Illuminator radars are automatically turned on. Basically an illuminator is a big bright light that other weapons know to track.

AEGIS ships with a SM-6 data link can pass off missiles to likewise equipped ships. This is a unique ability only available to top of the line american built ships. This is where illuminators get complicated. American ships can 'buddy lase' for other american ships. That is where the 25 nm figure comes from.

Using a top of the line USN DDG SAM in an anti surface role is pretty much the most complicated place to start with command.

You might need to turn on the doctrine for using SAM in an anti surface role, under the ctrl-f9 doctrine window. Needing to do this is not documented anywhere yet



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Post #: 50
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 7:01:36 PM   
HailRider

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/11/2014
Status: offline 		I'm pretty sure I know what it is. Just read back this thread a bit.

What I want to know is how do I turn it on. Or better yet, how do I fire the weapon?

< Message edited by HailRider -- 5/31/2014 8:01:53 PM >

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Post #: 51
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 7:03:18 PM   
RoryAndersonCDT

 

Posts: 1830
Joined: 6/16/2009
Status: offline 		I also have a tutorial here about ASuW warfare, I use a DDG without harpoons or anti ship missiles and use it to sink subs, aircraft and other ships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UGqKubLJwY&list=PLgRuKky0mojaJHd2wM4jcTox_jSkmFJil

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Post #: 52
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 7:05:59 PM   
RoryAndersonCDT

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HailRider

I'm pretty sure I know what it is. Just read back this thread a bit.

What I want to know is how do I turn it on. Or better yet, how do I fire the weapon?

You don't need to turn on illuminators in command, they turn themselves automatically on. Most likely the reason why you can't illuminate your target is because planet earth is between you and it

To fire the weapon (SAM from a DDG at another ship) successfully you need to get closer till your ship can literally see the other ship to point your illuminators at it. And then you have to go into the doctrine window (ctrl f9) and turn the last option to Yes. That option restricts your ships from using SAM against other surface targets.

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Post #: 53
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 7:15:50 PM   
HailRider

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/11/2014
Status: offline 		Baloogan, thank you for a great set of information. I now understand a number of things clearly.

In this scenario, there is no sub. It looks like the anti ship weapons I have available are torpedoes from ships or helicopters. I tried both, but you need to get too close, and that doesn't work. So I tried the missiles, with great effort.
I suppose what you are waying is that this is not a good intro scenario. (that was the intent this thread - asking about good intro scenarios)

I tried 2 of the suggestions mikkey made (South China Clash, Coral Magpie) and both were too complicated. I'm going on the assumption the others he suggested are too complicated too (Novi Pazer Pursuit, Nerve Hydra, and Op Lingkod Timog), so I won't bother.

So far, the following have been helpful:

The Shark
Operation Trident
Wooden Leg
The Vanatu Crisis
Stand Up

Downtown looks like a bit much too.

Any suggestions? I am really feeling overwhealmed here. The lack of documentation and instruction is really astounding. For $100, I figured I'd be able to play this game out of the box.

Thanks again Baloogan! You obviously know your stuff.

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Post #: 54
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 7:16:57 PM   
thewood1

 

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Status: offline 		I didn't put the definition up on purpose. Teach a man to fish...

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Post #: 55
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 7:18:20 PM   
HailRider

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baloogan
You don't need to turn on illuminators in command, they turn themselves automatically on. Most likely the reason why you can't illuminate your target is because planet earth is between you and it



Really? That is what all this was about. No need for the wiki articles and all that after all...

Thanks again, Baloogan.

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Post #: 56
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 7:20:35 PM   
HailRider

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I didn't put the definition up on purpose. Teach a man to fish...



Seriously, if you are unwilling to be helpful, then please don't make any comment.

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Post #: 57
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 7:21:49 PM   
HailRider

 

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Status: offline 		Again, any suggestions for easy scenarios would be appreciated.

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Post #: 58
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 7:33:55 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Status: offline 		Stand up is pretty straight forward.

Mike

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Post #: 59
RE: Getting Started - 5/31/2014 7:39:04 PM   
thewood1

 

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Status: offline 		The comment is about advice to not berate the developers about how detailed the instructions need to be. The question you are asking is pretty basic to naval warfare. The devs put some pretty good links up. A guy who did tutorials chimed in and pointed his tutorials. Yet you still came in and claimed to not understand. My helpful advice was if that stuff isn't good enough to get you there, you might not want to spend much more time on the game.

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Post #: 60
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