Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an immobile base?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds 1 Series >> Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an immobile base? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an immobi... - 5/25/2013 3:33:44 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
Since increasing fuel cells on ships make them go farther but what good is it for immobile? Is it for more fuel storage? Is fuel stored in fuel cells or cargo holds?

_____________________________

Post #: 1
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 4:17:14 AM   
Castinar

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 12/18/2010
Status: offline
You need fuel to power your reactor (Caslon for fision reactor, for instance). The more reactors you have, and the higher the energy output requirement of those reactors, the more fuel you need. It isn't *just* used for movement.

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 2
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 4:42:42 AM   
towerbooks3192


Posts: 337
Joined: 8/12/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Galen

You need fuel to power your reactor (Caslon for fision reactor, for instance). The more reactors you have, and the higher the energy output requirement of those reactors, the more fuel you need. It isn't *just* used for movement.


Now I learned something new. Thanks!

So its basically like saying you need fuel for cars and fuel for something like heating homes and for cooking.

(in reply to Castinar)
Post #: 3
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 5:51:27 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
Also, you can use energy collectors to reduce fuel consumption. But you still need fuel on the stations, IIRC, the reactors will use fuel when in combat, even if you have more than the number of energy collectors needed.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to towerbooks3192)
Post #: 4
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 6:50:17 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Galen

You need fuel to power your reactor (Caslon for fision reactor, for instance). The more reactors you have, and the higher the energy output requirement of those reactors, the more fuel you need. It isn't *just* used for movement.


So you need as much fuel capacity as reactor power output?

_____________________________


(in reply to Castinar)
Post #: 5
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 6:54:55 AM   
arkhometha


Posts: 75
Joined: 5/18/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Also, you can use energy collectors to reduce fuel consumption. But you still need fuel on the stations, IIRC, the reactors will use fuel when in combat, even if you have more than the number of energy collectors needed.



If bases run out of fuel, they stop shooting? You could crippled then economically, in theory?

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 6
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 7:00:25 AM   
Canute0

 

Posts: 616
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: Germany
Status: offline
If they don't got fuel and no energy collector they don't got Energy, then they can't shoot.
If they got energy collectors and some surplus energy, they still can shoot but far behind that what they can do with full energy.

(in reply to arkhometha)
Post #: 7
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 7:02:18 AM   
arkhometha


Posts: 75
Joined: 5/18/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canute

If they don't got fuel and no energy collector they don't got Energy, then they can't shoot.
If they got energy collectors and some surplus energy, they still can shoot but far behind that what they can do with full energy.


Got it, will remember it next times I design a Defense base. Thank you very much!

(in reply to Canute0)
Post #: 8
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 8:46:20 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: arkhometha


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Also, you can use energy collectors to reduce fuel consumption. But you still need fuel on the stations, IIRC, the reactors will use fuel when in combat, even if you have more than the number of energy collectors needed.



If bases run out of fuel, they stop shooting? You could crippled then economically, in theory?


It doesn't stop the firing, but it will slow it down. If you are running at a deficit via collectors and run out of fuel, it might be a problem (I've never let this happen, I always put on extra collectors). The base designs should have enough collectors to cover the bases static needs with some to spare.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to arkhometha)
Post #: 9
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 10:10:38 AM   
Sithuk

 

Posts: 431
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline
Why do you believe that energy collectors do not power weapons? I'll have to have a playtest with a zero reactor station.

Energy collectors are expensive and resource intensive if I recall, thats why I have designed stations with energy collectors for the station baseload energy requirements, and a reactor to cover the weapons as weapons will be used infrequently.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 10
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 11:00:48 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

Why do you believe that energy collectors do not power weapons? I'll have to have a playtest with a zero reactor station.

Energy collectors are expensive and resource intensive if I recall, thats why I have designed stations with energy collectors for the station baseload energy requirements, and a reactor to cover the weapons as weapons will be used infrequently.


You can't build a zero reactor station, the game will not let you. All ships and bases must have a reactor.

I don't believe that they don't power weapons, what I said was if you do not have enough of them it will have an effect if the fuel cells run dry. It is always a bad idea to run out of reactor fuel. It is also a bad idea to leave off the energy collectors. You should always design with more energy collectors than is necessary.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Sithuk)
Post #: 11
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 1:50:15 PM   
Raap

 

Posts: 404
Joined: 1/12/2011
Status: offline
Energy collectors definitely power weapons; I try to keep my number of reactors down and fill up with those instead. That said, the reactors provide more energy per size, and energy collectors only work with suns around( though that's not a big deterrent). Generally, you'll want to have your 'collected' power and your 'surplus' power, when combined, match that of your total weapons usage.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 12
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 5:21:39 PM   
Spacecadet

 

Posts: 1780
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline
Your Reactors are basically like giant storage Batteries (Energy on the display).

Everything connects to the Reactor (ex):
- Collector output charges the Reactor (Energy display)
- Shield charge from the Reactor
- Weapon draw power from the Reactor

A good example would be if you have too many weapons, when they fire you will see your Energy level drop briefly and then start charging again.
I've even seen some designs that total drain the Energy and they never fully recharge while in combat.



_____________________________

CPU: Intel 2700K
RAM: 16 GB
GPU: GTX 970
OS: Windows 7 (64 bit)
Res: 1920 x 1200



(in reply to Raap)
Post #: 13
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 7:19:11 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet

Your Reactors are basically like giant storage Batteries (Energy on the display).

Everything connects to the Reactor (ex):
- Collector output charges the Reactor (Energy display)
- Shield charge from the Reactor
- Weapon draw power from the Reactor

A good example would be if you have too many weapons, when they fire you will see your Energy level drop briefly and then start charging again.
I've even seen some designs that total drain the Energy and they never fully recharge while in combat.




And those designs are the ones that actually can quit firing...no energy means no laser beams.

That is why I stress that both collectors and fuel cells (and multiple reactors) are a must.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Spacecadet)
Post #: 14
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 7:50:12 PM   
moonraker65


Posts: 556
Joined: 7/14/2004
From: Swindon,Wilts. UK
Status: offline
I also find it handy to have fuel on some bases to top up a ship or 2 if they happen to be naer by or patrolling in a system close by. Saves them having to go back to a Space Station every time

_____________________________


(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 15
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 7:56:27 PM   
Resan

 

Posts: 98
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: moonraker

I also find it handy to have fuel on some bases to top up a ship or 2 if they happen to be naer by or patrolling in a system close by. Saves them having to go back to a Space Station every time


Does that take from fuel tanks of the bases? I thought you need fuel in cargo holds to be able to transfer it to another ship

(in reply to moonraker65)
Post #: 16
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/25/2013 8:16:17 PM   
Spacecadet

 

Posts: 1780
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Resan


quote:

ORIGINAL: moonraker

I also find it handy to have fuel on some bases to top up a ship or 2 if they happen to be naer by or patrolling in a system close by. Saves them having to go back to a Space Station every time


Does that take from fuel tanks of the bases? I thought you need fuel in cargo holds to be able to transfer it to another ship


Should be only from Cargo.



_____________________________

CPU: Intel 2700K
RAM: 16 GB
GPU: GTX 970
OS: Windows 7 (64 bit)
Res: 1920 x 1200



(in reply to Resan)
Post #: 17
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/31/2014 9:07:20 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet


quote:

ORIGINAL: Resan


quote:

ORIGINAL: moonraker

I also find it handy to have fuel on some bases to top up a ship or 2 if they happen to be naer by or patrolling in a system close by. Saves them having to go back to a Space Station every time


Does that take from fuel tanks of the bases? I thought you need fuel in cargo holds to be able to transfer it to another ship


Should be only from Cargo.




Ah so fuel cells do not refuel ships cargo bays do? Then I still ask the question why do you need fuel cells other than to increase ship distance? What do they do on a base?

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 5/31/2014 10:11:46 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Spacecadet)
Post #: 18
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/31/2014 10:35:58 AM   
Spidey


Posts: 411
Joined: 12/8/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Ah so fuel cells do not refuel ships cargo bays do? Then I still ask the question why do you need fuel cells other than to increase ship distance? What do they do on a base?

Putting enough energy collectors onto a base to power all its weapons is a bit of a pain in the ass in terms of upkeep. The more efficient thing, in my opinion, is to have enough energy collectors to power the static needs and then rely on reactor capacity if weapons are needed.

If you look at the included screenshot, you'll see that it's an early LSP design. The upper right corner reveals that it collects 96 energy, its reactors can put out 240 energy, the static energy drain is 74, and that leaves 166 reactor energy to be spent on other purposes. You'll also notice that it has a fuel capacity of 390, an energy storage of 480, and that it uses a mere 2 fuel units per 1000 energy thanks to the very nice Quameno NovaCore reactors. Finally, if you look at the weapons section, you'll see that its weapons, a bunch of velocity shard torpedo launchers, have a maximum drain of 133 energy per second.

The way to make sense of these numbers goes like this. The reactor is feeding up to 240 energy per second into a battery with a capacity of 480. This costs 2 units of fuel per 1000 energy produced. The energy collectors can potentially feed 96 energy to the battery. The battery has a static charge loss of 74. When the weapons are firing, the charge loss can increase to (74+133 = ) 207 energy, which would drain the battery fairly quickly, even with the collectors. The reactors, however, can easily produce this much energy, at the cost of burning through fuel.

And that's where the fuel tanks come in. This design has 390 units of fuel stored away and at the cost of 2 units of fuel per 1000 energy, this translates into a reactor output of 195,000 energy, which is enough to cover a weapon-based power drain of 133 for (195k/133 = ) 1466 seconds, or close to 25 minutes.

In practice, I have an untested gut feeling that the fuel is drained a bit faster than this. I might be sensing ghosts or it might indicate that the reactors are being charged with the full 207 energy drain regardless of the collectors, which would bring down the running time to a mere 975 seconds or about 16 minutes.

You might ask why I'm not just covering the weapon drain by collectors. The answer is that collectors are sort of expensive and I'd honestly rather pay for the upkeep of some fuel cells and some fuel consumption than for having the energy collection potential necessary to keep my weapons powered up.

Final thing, keep in mind that fuel cells are relatively cheap and that pirates some times really don't know when to give it a rest and call it a day. And it would suck if a disruption in fuel deliveries caused your base to stop shooting and get shot to pieces, wouldn't it?




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 19
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/31/2014 10:43:34 AM   
Ralzakark


Posts: 225
Joined: 4/24/2012
Status: offline
Fuel cell - holds the fuel that powers the reactor of whatever the fuel cell is in, either ship or base.
Cargo bay - holds fuel that is being taken elsewhere, or being stored to be taken elsewhere (e.g. a gas mine where the mining engines will put the fuel into the cargo bays ready to be collected).

From memory you will also need a cargo bay in a base which is receiving fuel as it is staged through there to before ending up in fuel cells. So fuel arriving at a base in a freighter will effectively go docking bay > cargo bay > fuel cell, but others can confirm/refute that.

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 20
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/31/2014 10:46:28 AM   
Kantay

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 5/30/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet


quote:

ORIGINAL: Resan


quote:

ORIGINAL: moonraker

I also find it handy to have fuel on some bases to top up a ship or 2 if they happen to be naer by or patrolling in a system close by. Saves them having to go back to a Space Station every time


Does that take from fuel tanks of the bases? I thought you need fuel in cargo holds to be able to transfer it to another ship


Should be only from Cargo.




Ah so fuel cells do not refuel ships cargo bays do? Then I still ask the question why do you need fuel cells other than to increase ship distance? What do they do on a base?

Bases need ENERGY for all sort of thing. ENERGY is produced in two ways, one is from a REACTOR, which needs FUEL to produce energy. It is one of the reactor statistics, that says like "2.56 fuel for 1000 energy". So if you want to supply your base with energy from reactors, you should have some fuel cells there. If you instead power your base with collectors only, then you need one fuel cell and one reactor anyway because the game forces you to.

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 21
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/31/2014 6:14:24 PM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ralzakark

Fuel cell - holds the fuel that powers the reactor of whatever the fuel cell is in, either ship or base.
Cargo bay - holds fuel that is being taken elsewhere, or being stored to be taken elsewhere (e.g. a gas mine where the mining engines will put the fuel into the cargo bays ready to be collected).

From memory you will also need a cargo bay in a base which is receiving fuel as it is staged through there to before ending up in fuel cells. So fuel arriving at a base in a freighter will effectively go docking bay > cargo bay > fuel cell, but others can confirm/refute that.


Yes but Ive read elsewhere that bases over planets do not need cargo bays because the planet holds everything? Is this true?

_____________________________


(in reply to Ralzakark)
Post #: 22
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/31/2014 9:31:24 PM   
Tehlongone


Posts: 208
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline
Basically true but I think they sort of pick up the resources from the planet so it needs enough cargo to handle all the incoming contracts as contracts reserve the purchased products while having them still stashed on the station, if you have too little cargo space it would harm your ability to trade efficiently. That said, you don't need much cargo.

As for fuel if you have plenty of energy collectors you only need enough for weapons and the station can refuel itself from the planet so 1-2 works fine. If it's in space you might want a few more depending how long you want it to be able to defend itself.

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 23
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/31/2014 10:01:15 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
That is why I stress that both collectors and fuel cells (and multiple reactors) are a must.


I couldn't agree more, take note new players, this is very sound advice.

Always try and design your bases with excess energy capacity. Remember some weapons bypass shields and if you’ve streamlined your energy requirements so tightly that you only have the bare minimum needed, a single knocked out reactor can see your base go down ASAP. So design your bases with enough reserve power that a lucky hit or two won’t take it out of commission or reduce its firing rate so much it can’t adequately defend itself.

Jim



_____________________________


(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 24
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 5/31/2014 10:57:21 PM   
Tehlongone


Posts: 208
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline
I don't know, in my experience once the base's weapons are truly required it's usually too late anyhow. Better to have powerful shields to allow a fleet to rescue it, it should just have enough weapons to counter a casual fleet attack.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 25
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 6/1/2014 9:03:15 AM   
moonraker65


Posts: 556
Joined: 7/14/2004
From: Swindon,Wilts. UK
Status: offline
A lot depends on how you play the game. I find that to expand further in to a Galaxy you will certainly need some refueling facilities for Explorers and for Fleets especially if you're going after Independent Colonies that are just out of reach early game

_____________________________


(in reply to Tehlongone)
Post #: 26
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 6/1/2014 10:48:18 AM   
Draakon

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 3/29/2014
Status: offline
Do note that Energy Collectors are also useful on ships that stay static for long periods of time. That way, their static energy consumption doesn't waste all their fuel on life support and sensors and such.

< Message edited by Draakon -- 6/2/2014 2:58:45 PM >

(in reply to moonraker65)
Post #: 27
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 6/1/2014 12:48:16 PM   
Mansen


Posts: 352
Joined: 5/3/2013
Status: offline
Is surplus energy converted into fuel or does it have to be spent at the spot?

_____________________________

Currently Working On:
X-Universe Conversion (Hiatus)

(in reply to Draakon)
Post #: 28
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 6/1/2014 11:43:58 PM   
Spidey


Posts: 411
Joined: 12/8/2013
Status: offline
Surplus energy isn't actually spent, as far as I know. If a ship isn't doing anything then the only power drain is the static energy and then that's all the reactor is producing. If it is doing something then what it's doing is added to the static energy drain.

(in reply to Mansen)
Post #: 29
RE: Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an im... - 6/2/2014 7:10:34 AM   
Kizucha

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 6/3/2013
Status: offline
I have a little question to energy collectors and the static energy. The static energy is the energy ships&bases use even if they sit still? Is it possible to cover that with energy collectors? I also always use enough energy collectors to cover the static energy but i think i'm doing anything wrong, because they burn fuel.

Is this only working with a few more collectors than needed? I only use as many collectors that the static energy is coverd and not more.

Thank you for anwers.^^

(in reply to Spidey)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds 1 Series >> Why would you need more than one fuel cell at an immobile base? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.938