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air skill for bomber pilots - 6/1/2014 12:29:41 PM   
AirGriff


Posts: 701
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline 		Do bomber crews use air skill when trying to run through CAP? All these years I've been playing and I don't think I ever really thought about that. I just told my bomber pilots to go straight and steady and hope for the best.

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RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/1/2014 12:58:33 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		My understanding is yes and they also use their ONE maneuver band in terms of calculating what the outcome will be in the "dog fight" if you will. If a pilot of the bomber has a high skill value and the bomber has good defenses (mainly US 4 engine bombers) you can likely end up with an Ace for a bomber pilot.

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RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/1/2014 1:03:46 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		IMO it's Exp & Def skills for a bomber pilot - not Air skill.

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RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/1/2014 1:11:13 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
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From: Covington LA via Montreal!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

IMO it's Exp & Def skills for a bomber pilot - not Air skill.

So would Air Skills be used in determining effective bombing? Or would it simply be a factor in their ability to avoid crashes?

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RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/1/2014 1:54:13 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		IME, Exp + GrdB determines effective bombing, Exp + Def resists enemy CAP, Exp improves a damaged bomber's chances to return & land at its base (or at least to have the pilot survive a write-off crash landing).

Add in a healthy dose of random dice-god action for all of these actions!

The 'how to choose leaders' post indicates that Ldr & Admin skills are relevant to all airgroup, but the leader's Air & Agg skill only apply to fighter groups. Some attention to leader qualities will be needed.

Much earlier in my current game, I was alerted to the early-'44 increase in USArmy bomber groups' size increase in plenty of time to switch training of most of my CONUS fighter-training groups to ground attack at 5k' alt. Most of those pilots had Exp / Air / Def skills in the high 60's, & I had 4 months to train them in GrdB. I went so far as to cull all the 81-Exp fighter pilots to TRACOM, then transfer them to rear-area fighter & bomber groups for GrdB training. This move really paid off for me - I was able to populate many new or enlarged B-24 & B-29 groups w/ high-Exp pilots.

I found that training groups gain skills better when each groups pilots' Exp differential is < 5. It's truly a click-fest to get the pilots organized, & on more than one occaision my game has crashed after extensive pilot-transfers. Make interim saves when you're trading pilots between groups!

It's always a smile when a bomber pilot achieves ace status.

< Message edited by jmalter -- 6/1/2014 3:00:34 PM >

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RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/1/2014 2:29:20 PM   
EHansen


Posts: 360
Joined: 12/6/2013
Status: offline 		This is interesting:

I found that training groups gain skills better when each groups pilots' Exp differential is < 5.

I will have to do some major clicking tonight.

< Message edited by EHansen -- 6/1/2014 3:29:47 PM >

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RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/1/2014 6:06:00 PM   
Gaspote


Posts: 303
Joined: 6/30/2013
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EHansen

This is interesting:

I found that training groups gain skills better when each groups pilots' Exp differential is < 5.

I will have to do some major clicking tonight.


Having 80+ pilot help, especially as flying leader with pretty high leadership it's even better.

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Post #: 7
RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/1/2014 10:10:21 PM   
kbfchicago


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/17/2009
From: NC, USA
Status: offline 		+1 Gaspote & Jmiller.

If you let your training unit get a large delta of skills (i.e. brand new 25-30 mixed with partially training 50-60s) the high level guys will slack off with few increases over time. So...if you're going to periodically cull or you have pressing need to bring the best trained forward. The easy follow up is just call pilots out of flight school to replace those you just culled to bring the unit back to peak strength. However, as JMiller notes, and you will see...mixing skill levels in your training sqdns does not work well... To keep from "clicking till my fingers fall off.." I rotate whole squadrons when I can, when that will not work, back fill the training unit that I cherry picked guys out of with the least trained from the Reserve pool (or those at about the same training level) to keep the sqdn skill delta around +/- 5ish. Generally you'll have a number of these mediocre guys in reserve due to sqdns that had to disband/withdrawal.

While I've seen posts in the past that contended to prove one way or the other if having one highly experienced pilot (in addition to a leader with good leadership) helps train faster, my experience is they do help. As soon as feasible I move one +80 skill pilot into each of the home station training sqdns. No scientific analysis...but it sure looks to me like those with an expert come up to speed much faster than those without.

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RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/2/2014 4:00:01 PM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline 		Yes. I do the same. Fill the training Squadron with a full load of unskilled pilots. They all train at the same level that way. GP

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RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/3/2014 12:49:06 PM   
AirGriff


Posts: 701
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks guys. I always knew it was best to cross train, just didn't take it far enough. And I can add to the consensus that similar experience leveled pilots train at a more even rate.

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RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/3/2014 3:40:19 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		hi kbfchicago - I'm jmalter, not jmiller. But no worries, mate - twice at least in the past months I've referenced Albert as Alfred!

I've no opinion on the 'include 1 experienced pilot' issue, but I'll give it a try in my next game.

I really am convinced on keeping an airgroup's pilots Exp levels as close as possible - less than 5% differential, except for the command pilot, his Ldr/Insp skill is more important. If I've got a decent commander, I'll keep him - let's say I've trained up a medium bomber group to 70 ASW, but the commander's ASW is <20. When this group goes operational, I'll put the commander on group reserve - he won't fly missions, but his Ldr/Insp stats remain in effect.

For training groups, if Exp levels are v. similar, the pilots train the selected skill more uniformly - lesser-skilled pilots get more attention than higher-skilled pilots. If their Exp level difference is too great, the higher-Exp pilots get less training improvement.

For operational groups, the higher-Exp pilots fly missions more often than the lower-Exp pilots, even if the lower-Exp pilots have = or > mission skill. This can lead to a higher accrual of group fatigue & morale loss.

Another of my personal rules - I always keep my groups at 133% pilot strength, even if I must add lower-Exp pilots to an operational group.

While I try to optimize pilots on a semi-regular basis, sometimes I have to do a yoogly click-fest, involving dozens of airgroups & 1 or 2 thousand pilots. If I don't make interim saves during this procedure, I often get a game-crash when I run the next game-turn. Take note! All your non-saved changes are lost, & you'll have to do the pilot-transfers all over again.

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Post #: 11
RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/3/2014 4:00:59 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		Logical thing from the game design point of view wrt Air skill would be to calculate aerial fight bonuses universally for any kind of the plane, using Air skill as a multiplier for airframe maneuver rating. If that's the case, given 2-4E bombers' abysmal maneuver, Air skill would matter very little. For fighter-bombers things might turn out noticeably different
I don't have empirics to back my hypothesis with though.

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Post #: 12
RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/3/2014 4:21:52 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

If that's the case, given 2-4E bombers' abysmal maneuver, Air skill would matter very little.


If that line of reasoning were correct, then passenger airliners would not benefit from pilots with good flying skills. But obviously from real life examples it makes a great deal of difference.

Assuming that the game designers did it the way you suggest might be correct or incorrect, but I disagree with your reasoning.

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Post #: 13
RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/3/2014 8:23:12 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		The following linked thread from the main AE forum is really a mirror image of this War Room thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3625025

Both threads are excellent exemplars of the recent decline in quality in threads.  Seems no one cares if silly questions are asked; silly because the answers are easily found in the manual or because someone is trying to game/find loopholes in the game and expect to be accommodated.  Worse still are the conflicting answers provided by various respondents where accuracy is not considered important.  How newbies are to make any sense totally escapes me.  Time to get some facts right.

1.  The Air skill of a pilot is taken into account in the air combat matrix of algorithms.  Fighter, torpedo bomber, heavy bomber, or strapped to a kite whilst eating an icecream, if engaged in air combat the air skill of the pilots is a component in determining the outcome.  This is an offense trait which allows more effective "hunting".  Kill a plane, there is a chance the air skill will increase.

2.  The Defence skill of a pilot is taken into in the air combat matrix of algorithms.  Be it a fighter, torpedo bomber, heavy bomber, or strapped to a kite pilot.  This is a defence trait which allows for a more effective "escape".  When you see the message "pilot X evaded ...", the defence skill played a role and there is a chance that it will increase.

3.  Maneuverability and speed are connected.  Read very carefully what s.7.4.2 of the manual says about the relationship.  A faster plane may reduce by up to 1/2 the manoeuvre rating of the enemy.  Again the air skill plays a major role in the air combat matrix of algorithms.

4.  The manoeuvre rating of a bomber is also a significant factor in avoiding flak (see s.7.4.2.2 of the manual).  Not too many bombers have a high enough manoeuvre rating and speed to expect to dogfight with a fighter.  Combined with usually having a low air skill, not too many bomber pilots become aces.  Even if you placed a 90 air skill pilot in a bomber they would be handicapped in air combat.

5.  JFBs consistently lament that it is pointless having better defensive firepower in later bomber models as they never kill any Allied fighter.  They obviously don't look at the combat animation to see what really happens.  Japanese defensive fire does result in:

(a) forcing individual Allied fighters to cease prosecuting their attack.  That is one more Japanese bomber left to prosecute it's bombing run.

(b) damaged Allied fighters.  Just as combat damaged Allied 4E are more prone to become operational losses, so are combat damaged Allied fighters.

(c) if you pay close attention, every so often the message "a critical hit on Allied fighter x" will flash during the combat animation.  You don't normally see a critically hit airplane going down but normally such a plane will crash on the return trip

That Japanese bomber pilots are not credited with kills, unlike the occasional Allied bomber pilot (almost always a 4E) is due to both having a lower durability value and less firepower, is the result of not being able to stay in the fight long enough to get a clean kill.

6.  Pilot training is being consistently misrepresented.  You should all reread the "Pilot Addendum" which came out with one of the very early patches.  It is in everyone's directory.  It is the delta between the various skills and experience which matters, not having all with the same experience level.  Plus squadron leader stats.

Alfred

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Post #: 14
RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/3/2014 10:02:18 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  The Air skill of a pilot is taken into account in the air combat matrix of algorithms.  Fighter, torpedo bomber, heavy bomber, or strapped to a kite whilst eating an icecream, if engaged in air combat the air skill of the pilots is a component in determining the outcome.  This is an offense trait which allows more effective "hunting".  Kill a plane, there is a chance the air skill will increase.

Alfred


Does this then open up a gamey tactic for AFBs? Could an allied player train up some fighter pilots to 70ish Air skill, then transfer them to a bomber squadron? This seems like a way to produce some serious Japanese-fighter-killing beasts. Fighter pilot skills and a gun rating of 50 - pretty deadly combination.

In real life, this definitely would not have been done. A basic flight trainer would have been followed by an old-model plane of the basic category the pilot was being trained to fly for real. Then it would have been off to the front in a modern plane of a type consistent with the pilot's training.

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RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/3/2014 10:15:49 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  The Air skill of a pilot is taken into account in the air combat matrix of algorithms.  Fighter, torpedo bomber, heavy bomber, or strapped to a kite whilst eating an icecream, if engaged in air combat the air skill of the pilots is a component in determining the outcome.  This is an offense trait which allows more effective "hunting".  Kill a plane, there is a chance the air skill will increase.

Alfred


Does this then open up a gamey tactic for AFBs? Could an allied player train up some fighter pilots to 70ish Air skill, then transfer them to a bomber squadron? This seems like a way to produce some serious Japanese-fighter-killing beasts. Fighter pilot skills and a gun rating of 50 - pretty deadly combination.

In real life, this definitely would not have been done. A basic flight trainer would have been followed by an old-model plane of the basic category the pilot was being trained to fly for real. Then it would have been off to the front in a modern plane of a type consistent with the pilot's training.

If that would work (not established) why would that be solely open to Allied player use?

BTW, plenty of FB crews have good air ratings but still get chewed up by IJ fighters. Not exactly the same, but it's enough to give me doubt that the theory is correct.

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RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/3/2014 10:33:05 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  The Air skill of a pilot is taken into account in the air combat matrix of algorithms.  Fighter, torpedo bomber, heavy bomber, or strapped to a kite whilst eating an icecream, if engaged in air combat the air skill of the pilots is a component in determining the outcome.  This is an offense trait which allows more effective "hunting".  Kill a plane, there is a chance the air skill will increase.

Alfred


Does this then open up a gamey tactic for AFBs? Could an allied player train up some fighter pilots to 70ish Air skill, then transfer them to a bomber squadron? This seems like a way to produce some serious Japanese-fighter-killing beasts. Fighter pilot skills and a gun rating of 50 - pretty deadly combination.

In real life, this definitely would not have been done. A basic flight trainer would have been followed by an old-model plane of the basic category the pilot was being trained to fly for real. Then it would have been off to the front in a modern plane of a type consistent with the pilot's training.

If that would work (not established) why would that be solely open to Allied player use?

BTW, plenty of FB crews have good air ratings but still get chewed up by IJ fighters. Not exactly the same, but it's enough to give me doubt that the theory is correct.


You're right, the Japanese player could put fighter pilots into some Bettys and Helens, but what would be the purpose? Japanese bombers have gun ratings around 12-16 or so. There wouldn't be any advantage in doing this.

For the allied player, some of those 4Es have gun ratings around 50 or even 60 (I think). They make nice fighter-killing platforms with all of those guns (even when flown by pilots with 40ish Air skills). Add to that an Air skill of 70 or so and you have a very good sweeper. Why bother sweeping with P-47s (which are very mortal against Franks and Georges) when you can throw some fighter pilots into B-24s or B-29s (which are relatively indestructible) instead?

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Post #: 17
RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/3/2014 10:38:23 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		In the 4EB I've never seen gun ratings that high. They max out in the ballpark of 30. You might be thinking of some of the attack bombers that have big packages of guns for strafing.

Still, I really doubt that the game code treats bombers the same as it treats fighters in air to air combat. You can try it and see what results it yields!?

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Post #: 18
RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/3/2014 11:33:05 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1610
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From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

In the 4EB I've never seen gun ratings that high. They max out in the ballpark of 30. You might be thinking of some of the attack bombers that have big packages of guns for strafing.

Still, I really doubt that the game code treats bombers the same as it treats fighters in air to air combat. You can try it and see what results it yields!?


You're right. I was thinking of one of the B-25 attack bombers. Other 4Es are in the mid thirties.

Just did a little test (tiny sample size - n=1) and found air skill to have a very large effect on the performance of 4Es against Japanese fighters. However, it was a very negative effect.

I opened the Downfall scenario head-to-head and sent a B-24 unit to bomb Kagoshima. I also set one Japanese A6M8 to 100% CAP. With bomber pilots from the start of the scenario, 4 bombers were shot down and one Zero was shot down. I reopened the scenario and swapped out the bomber pilots for some top-notch fighter pilots. I kept everything else the same and the fighter pilots got spanked. Seven bombers were shot down with no Zeros lost.

So, I guess with bombers vs fighters, Air rating might not be all that big of a factor.

I do recognize the sample size was quite small. But I don't have too much time to spare. (It took me almost an hour just for n=1). Anyone with a four or five days to spare can go ahead and crunch out some more trials to get a higher degree of confidence if they'd like.

< Message edited by Icedawg -- 6/4/2014 12:33:44 AM >

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Post #: 19
RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/3/2014 11:37:06 PM   
EHansen


Posts: 360
Joined: 12/6/2013
Status: offline 		Interesting topic. I do not remember any of my bomber pilots gaining any air to air skill, even when they shot down an opposing fighter. I do think I rememberseening them gain defensive skill.

blue text is my edit.

< Message edited by EHansen -- 6/4/2014 1:51:08 AM >

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Post #: 20
RE: air skill for bomber pilots - 6/4/2014 8:29:28 AM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline
quote:

strapped to a kite whilst eating an icecream


Or to give it its proper name, "flying a Ki-27 Nate"

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