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RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 2:59:16 PM

mikmykWS

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As a general statement we do know there are haters out there who do leverage the ambiguity of the internet to stir up trouble etc. This is not some new thing they cleverly invented. Our view is that the best tool we have to deal this is the community itself as they eventually do call bs when they see it. We deeply appreciate this as it keeps us on task doing the work what needs to be done. Our job is to advance the product, make our customers happy with it and not get into it with trolls.

Thanks!

Mike

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Post #: 31

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 2:59:37 PM

SSN754planker

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Id like to think that back 10 years ago or so that a printed huge thick manual was more important than maybe the actual game itself. (the legendary Harpoon II manual comes to mind) But now, we have so many other outlets for information on a game that a manual or even a e manual has gone a few rungs down the ladder of importance. There is a nice manual provided with CMANO that lays out more than enough information to get started. There are literally DAYS of content available on YouTube that provide even more in depth info on features that have arrived since the manual was printed. Baloogan's videos are at the forefront of that. The info is there in the build changes. There is a very nice wiki (also provided by Baloogan) that gives you even more information. There is probably more out there that i am missing. I prefer going through those rather than thumbing a paper manual any day. It keeps my eyes on my screen.

But trashing the sim just because you're frustrated you haven't seen the second coming of the Harpoon II manual is silly. CMANO is THE best simulation in this genre ever IMO, and provides so much more than what we had before.

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Post #: 32

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 3:06:53 PM

cuthbo2001

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I don't think we disagree Wood,but lets not be so quick to dismiss. Mike has it right these are still Betas.I forget how spoiled we are by having access to the betas, but you know what they say about feeding the beast!

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Post #: 33

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 3:09:02 PM

thewood1

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I have been saying they are betas...that is my entire point. If you can't handle working on what is declared an early release beta build, stick with the official 1.00 or 1.03 official release.

btw, the Harpoon manuals never kept up with the developments. I think there was maybe one major update and then a bunch of readmes.

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Post #: 34

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 3:10:01 PM

thewood1

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I say we add manual updates to the feature poll and see where that takes us.

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Post #: 35

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 3:30:11 PM

HailRider

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I don't even want a refund. I am happy to pay for development. But I am getting frustrated with the response of certain members, just see above or in a previous thread. The amount of arrogance is astounding. Since this is such a complicated game with poor documentation, the forum managers should really stop people from the berating new players asking for help. Simply saying 'Google it' is not helpful. Especially when they are wagging their finger at you and saying' I know the answer but I won't tell you.' That is just simply unacceptable.

If you are going to rely on the forum and community resources for documentation, then the forum needs to be friendly and open to ignorant questions. Of course the questions are ignorant, otherwise we wouldn't be asking them.

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Post #: 36

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 3:38:11 PM

jdkbph

Posts: 339
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From: CT, USA
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I wonder if part of the problem, at least, is that Matrix doesn't do a great job defining the complexity levels of the games they sell. For instance, CMANO is labeled Complexity: Advanced, Expert in their catalog. But what does that mean?

To some it might mean "I'll have to read the manual because intuition is not going to be enough". To me it indicates that player subject knowledge above and beyond the mechanics of the game is required.

Realistically a game manual can only ever be expected to address the mechanics. For a Beginner level game, perhaps this is enough. For an Intermediate level game, I could imagine a separate but all-in-one type resource, such as a strategy guide, might suffice. However, when you get to the Advanced/Expert level - and I'm thinking CMANO or WITP:AE as examples - even that is not enough. You need to study the subject... read books... becomes knowledgeable not only of the game, but of the real world strategies, tactics, technologies and applications represented in the game.

I think that's where the disconnect is with the frustrated individuals posting to the thread. No manual, nor even a strategy guide (although good comprehensive documents along these line would help), can ever hope to provide that to a player.

Perhaps the Matrix catalog should explain this?

The down side, obviously, is that you may scare away potential customers. Not being the one depending on sales for my livelihood, it's easy for me to say it's better that than frustrated and dissatisfied customers running amok in forums like these. I don't know. Tough call...

JD

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Post #: 37

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 3:41:21 PM

mikmykWS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HailRider

I don't even want a refund. I am happy to pay for development. But I am getting frustrated with the response of certain members, just see above or in a previous thread. The amount of arrogance is astounding. Since this is such a complicated game with poor documentation, the forum managers should really stop people from the berating new players asking for help. Simply saying 'Google it' is not helpful. Especially when they are wagging their finger at you and saying' I know the answer but I won't tell you.' That is just simply unacceptable.

If you are going to rely on the forum and community resources for documentation, then the forum needs to be friendly and open to ignorant questions. Of course the questions are ignorant, otherwise we wouldn't be asking them.

Yes this isn't a star thread that is for sure

I have faith the community will work this out. We trust you guys and really need to be working on what matters not being the forum nannies

Thanks!

Mike

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Post #: 38

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 3:58:21 PM

thewood1

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There is some serious disingenuous-ness going on here...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3613883&mpage=2&key=

Someone asked specifically what illumination was...

A few links were provided...

That same person said that wasn't good enough...

Another link was provided...

It was suggested googling it if those FOUR links weren't good enough...

Boolegan stepped in and still seemed to get ignored...

Finally, an actual paragraph was provided from the manual that explained what illumination was...

I am not quite sure what is expected. That person claimed to be a long-time Harpoon user and still couldn't figure it out. He has the wrong game. It happens. It has happened to me. It happens to everyone.

The above poster is being incredibly disingenuous in saying he was only given a google suggestion. He was given four links and an offer of a website wit dozens of tutorials.

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Post #: 39

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 4:02:07 PM

SSN754planker

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+1 to that thewood1

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Post #: 40

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 4:07:17 PM

thewood1

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What really set me off on this tirade is players that want someone else to do the work of learning for them. In a lot of games like Command, the learning is the fun part. When the community does so much work to guide and educate people and it's not only ignored but dismissed, it cheeses me off.

If you aren't willing to put at least a little effort in learning the subject, you probably are playing the wrong game and should remove Matrix from your bookmarks.

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Post #: 41

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 4:22:12 PM

Sardaukar

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Maybe the game just is not for those who cannot distinguish between "illumination" and "Illuminati"...

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Post #: 42

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 5:29:38 PM

HailRider

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Joined: 5/11/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

quote:

ORIGINAL: HailRider

Its not a matter of hate, from my part. It is a matter of playability for new, non seasoned, players. If you don't care about us new players, offer a refund, and I will be on my way. So will all the new players.

You're always welcome to pursue a refund We do feel though we have a great product and a great relationship with our player base and hope you will stick around.

I'm really getting fed up with this whole thing. All I want to do is play your game. I am being berated by theWood1, without any repercussion to him. This is not fun. Games are meant to be fun.

I have asked for a refund, but, as you likely are aware, they refuse.

What is the next step in getting a refund, please.

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Post #: 43

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 5:33:16 PM

HailRider

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Joined: 5/11/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
don't update with betas.

I am in no way referring to the betas. I am referring to the game as a whole.

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Post #: 44

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 5:35:37 PM

HailRider

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/11/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

As a general statement we do know there are haters out there who do leverage the ambiguity of the internet to stir up trouble etc. This is not some new thing they cleverly invented. Our view is that the best tool we have to deal this is the community itself as they eventually do call bs when they see it. We deeply appreciate this as it keeps us on task doing the work what needs to be done. Our job is to advance the product, make our customers happy with it and not get into it with trolls.

Thanks!

Mike

Who are you calling a troll? theWood1?

If you think I am one, then I am even more shocked than I was before. I just want some information and theWood1 caused this whole backlash. Please read the other thread "Getting Started". He has been rude, arrogant, and just plain childish.

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Post #: 45

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 5:43:55 PM

HailRider

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/11/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

There is some serious disingenuous-ness going on here...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3613883&mpage=2&key=

Someone asked specifically what illumination was...

A few links were provided...

That same person said that wasn't good enough...

Another link was provided...

It was suggested googling it if those FOUR links weren't good enough...

Boolegan stepped in and still seemed to get ignored...

Finally, an actual paragraph was provided from the manual that explained what illumination was...

I am not quite sure what is expected. That person claimed to be a long-time Harpoon user and still couldn't figure it out. He has the wrong game. It happens. It has happened to me. It happens to everyone.

The above poster is being incredibly disingenuous in saying he was only given a google suggestion. He was given four links and an offer of a website wit dozens of tutorials.

Again, you make way too many assumptions. Reread the thread.

Baloogan gave me an answer. Short and to the point, and explaining many things in addition to what I asked. I thanked him.

You are causing this trouble.

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Post #: 46

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 5:52:43 PM

thewood1

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I really don't know what you expected...you initially dismissed his offer to help and just went on. Did you even look at his website when he stepped in?

You asked specifically "What is illumination"...you were given several answers. I was totally surprised that someone who claimed have played a lot of Harpoon didn't know that. You asked what OODA is. It is pretty clearly outlined in the manual. Yet you still seem to struggle with it. Did it really take one of the best community contributors to get you to the answers? There has to be some self-service.

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Post #: 47

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 6:18:31 PM

HailRider

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/11/2014
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Why are you continuing. You are the problem here. Can't you see that?

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Post #: 48

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 6:26:03 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HailRider

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

quote:

ORIGINAL: HailRider

Its not a matter of hate, from my part. It is a matter of playability for new, non seasoned, players. If you don't care about us new players, offer a refund, and I will be on my way. So will all the new players.

You're always welcome to pursue a refund We do feel though we have a great product and a great relationship with our player base and hope you will stick around.

I'm really getting fed up with this whole thing. All I want to do is play your game. I am being berated by theWood1, without any repercussion to him. This is not fun. Games are meant to be fun.

I have asked for a refund, but, as you likely are aware, they refuse.

What is the next step in getting a refund, please.

Playing the game and playing on with our forum are two different things.

Most of our players never post at all or pay much mind to what goes on here. They're just focused on the playing the game.

If you don't feel comfortable with the audience feel free to email or pm. We do respond.

Mike

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Post #: 49

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 6:31:43 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HailRider

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

As a general statement we do know there are haters out there who do leverage the ambiguity of the internet to stir up trouble etc. This is not some new thing they cleverly invented. Our view is that the best tool we have to deal this is the community itself as they eventually do call bs when they see it. We deeply appreciate this as it keeps us on task doing the work what needs to be done. Our job is to advance the product, make our customers happy with it and not get into it with trolls.

Thanks!

Mike

Who are you calling a troll? theWood1?

If you think I am one, then I am even more shocked than I was before. I just want some information and theWood1 caused this whole backlash. Please read the other thread "Getting Started". He has been rude, arrogant, and just plain childish.

Sorry buddy we're not taking a side on this. As mentioned our focus is not on forum stuff but developing software.

What I can say is I'm not sure what's going on should be as dramatic as it is. Perhaps just agreeing to disagree might be the best path forward.

Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 6/1/2014 7:33:54 PM >

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Post #: 50

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 6:36:04 PM

HailRider

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Agreed. Done.

I just hope he doesn't pipe in again when I ask my next question, assuming I don't get the refund.

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Post #: 51

RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 6:47:32 PM

mikmykWS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HailRider

Agreed. Done.

I just hope he doesn't pipe in again when I ask my next question, assuming I don't get the refund.

You're not social engineering up a ban for the Wood and this string has really taken a goofy turn.

Time for the devs to exit stage left on this.

Mike

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Post #: 52

RE: Updated manual - 6/2/2014 7:09:27 PM

smudge56

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Omg all you have to do is ask a question in the forum's. People are there to answer whatever you like. Every time I've had an issue some kind, patient sole has been there to help.

An example I noticed that in one post, I forgot the persons name kept asking about illumination and what it was. It was answered by numerous people they were also pointed in the direction of baloogans website and videos. This is a great place to learn.

I am no expert at this game. I'm always asking questions. I've always been made to feel welcome.

This game has been constantly updated, bug fixed more time than most of the main streammgames probably over their lifetime. The developers are active in both forums and even hang out in baloogans chat room and been on his live streams in the past.

This is a first rate game and I'd prefer updates and fixes to a updated manual anyday.

Perhaps this calls for some more Baloogan live streams 'hint hint' for newcomers to hang out and learn some tips, tricks etc from the community.

Again dont feel stupid asking a question in the forums people are more than happy to help.

Guys keep up the great work I definitely appreciate what you are all doing.

Smudge

< Message edited by Blighty56 -- 6/2/2014 8:16:01 PM >

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Post #: 53

RE: Updated manual - 6/2/2014 8:21:15 PM

Dannyp19

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Holy cow guys. Sorry to bring this up.

I'm an old fashioned RTFM guy. I like to sit down and read a manual. Reason I brought this up was I, haven't been able to play as much as I would like due to RL. I had forgotten a lot of the new features and was wanting to brush-up.

Is three a page or resource I can find to get this info?

Edit: strike that above question. I'm a dumb ass. Of course Boologans site has all the build documentation I need.

As to refunds. I've bought probably a thousand dollars worth of software I didn't like, etc. (Windows ME an example) and never got a refund. What gives?

Didn't expect this to become a flame war. Was just asking a question/request.

Sorry again.

< Message edited by Dannyp19 -- 6/2/2014 9:30:47 PM >

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Post #: 54

RE: Updated manual - 6/2/2014 8:36:43 PM

smudge56

Posts: 667
Joined: 1/17/2009
From: UK
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Baloogan is the best place for learning the basics from his vids :)

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Post #: 55

RE: Updated manual - 6/2/2014 11:44:36 PM

thewood1

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Joined: 11/27/2005
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There is actually a supplement to the manual that came out with the official 1.03 release. That will take you to 1.03. Everything after that is beta and you'll have to read the release notes.

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Post #: 56

RE: Updated manual - 6/3/2014 12:46:29 AM

Mgellis

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Joined: 8/18/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

There is actually a supplement to the manual that came out with the official 1.03 release. That will take you to 1.03. Everything after that is beta and you'll have to read the release notes.

Was it bundled with the 1.03 update or is it a link? Sorry for the dumb question...I just could not find it. Thanks.

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Post #: 57

RE: Updated manual - 6/3/2014 1:20:15 AM

Mgellis

Posts: 2054
Joined: 8/18/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

Omg all you have to do is ask a question in the forum's. People are there to answer whatever you like. Every time I've had an issue some kind, patient sole has been there to help.

An example I noticed that in one post, I forgot the persons name kept asking about illumination and what it was. It was answered by numerous people they were also pointed in the direction of baloogans website and videos. This is a great place to learn.

I am no expert at this game. I'm always asking questions. I've always been made to feel welcome.

This game has been constantly updated, bug fixed more time than most of the main streammgames probably over their lifetime. The developers are active in both forums and even hang out in baloogans chat room and been on his live streams in the past.

This is a first rate game and I'd prefer updates and fixes to a updated manual anyday.

Perhaps this calls for some more Baloogan live streams 'hint hint' for newcomers to hang out and learn some tips, tricks etc from the community.

Again dont feel stupid asking a question in the forums people are more than happy to help.

Guys keep up the great work I definitely appreciate what you are all doing.

Smudge

I have to agree. Both the game and the support provided by the development team are remarkable.

I have a feeling that part of what has been frustrating some people is this...Command is a rich, robust game, but it does have a bit of a learning curve. The manual offers a very good explanation of what the various controls in Command do, but it does not spend as much time on how to do certain things or why certain things work the way they do. I suspect what people are hungry for is more stuff like the sections on submarine depth layers and how to build air bases. I've probably spent more time reading those five pages than any other fifty-page chunk of the manual.

Perhaps what needs to be done is to take all the excellent advice that has appeared in the forums and other places and put together an official or quasi-official FAQ covering things like tactics, design issues, why weather can foul up guided weapons, etc.

(No, I am NOT volunteering to do this. I just think it would be a good idea.)

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Post #: 58

RE: Updated manual - 6/3/2014 9:54:23 AM

thewood1

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Just search your Command directory for a pdf, one of the results is a whats new doc.

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Post #: 59

RE: Updated manual - 6/3/2014 5:16:33 PM

Casinn

Posts: 343
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I agree with Mgellis on more detailed (community driven?) explanation of complicated facets of the game,

As just a player of others scenarios, I'm yet to even read the manual, and have had no issues keeping up with all the fabulous changes just from the patch notes, guess I just like to learn by trial and error... old fashioned I guess.
First starting out I had a number of questions, but Baloogan's vids and other peoples questions on boards answered them all fine.

Those that want to jump right into making giant simulations of full scale conflict should accept they will need to do some learning first, imo.

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Post #: 60