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DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/8/2014 7:27:05 PM

Tormodino

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Hello all!

I've played Distant Worlds since it first came out, and it's one of the most ambitious 4x projects ever made.

Having said that, after anticipating the release of Universe for a while, I am quite disappointed. I would go so far as to say that nothing significant has changed in DW since release.

This is not really a post-op, but more of a meandering text containing my various thoughts on what I feel is absent or limited in this game. These are primarily my opinions, so any perspectives that counter or add to these are very welcome.

A lot of what I present in the document are rather dramatic changes, other things are simply calls for refining mechanics already present in the game. Primarily, though, it is food for thought about an already very interesting game.

Here is the link to the doc for those who are interested (long read):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HlywzDeogcyXgUjmhURcPTdZglPOON0L_M7t4ws3v44/edit?usp=sharing

I will post this on Steam and Reddit as well to try to get as many people interested as possible.

Post #: 1

RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/8/2014 8:16:53 PM

Malorn

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Well, some of what you're suggesting is entirely possible with the current modding tools. Not all of it, but some of it.

I'd like more access to things like max population and other similar things, but overall the idea of a modding expansion is very welcome. I've told many games that I'd pay money for being able to mod, I'm happy one of them listened. Still, really wish I could get to max population especially.

(in reply to Tormodino)

Post #: 2

RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/8/2014 8:43:30 PM

Tormodino

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I am happy to hear that. I will try out some mods later to see what can be done with the tools.
When I read through the modding manual I got the feeling that a lot can be changed, but that the basics are firmly screwed in place.
I did not realise that the private sector was completely hands off, for example. And that policies and the AI cannot really be changed or scripted.

Many of my issues with the game stems from the fact that I can play the micro game, but I am facing AI opponents who operates at a scale that the model seems unable to cope with.
The simple fact that kicking pirate bases off planets is trivial for the player, but apparently extremely difficult for the AI, makes very little sense to me. Also, organising simple fleet to tackle local threats or invade rebelling colonies is just matter of gathering up the resources manually and doing it, but the AI will sit idly by while preventable threats will wreak havoc with their core infrastructure.

The tasks are very simple, but the constant re-evaluations of priorities as well as the sheer number of possible actions seem to confuse the heck out of the AI.

I have no real grounds for assuming that the solutions are simple, but limiting the staggering amount of AI action to a slightly less staggering amount seems very reasonable to me.
In short, they do retarded things like fly across the galaxy to blockade a planet when there are blindingly obvious concerns at home.

Rule in absence is a very good window into how utterly confused the AI actually is. And I am only pointing that out since it illuminates what is going on with all the non-player actors in the game.

(in reply to Malorn)

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RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/8/2014 10:47:12 PM

pycco

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tormodino

I did not realise that the private sector was completely hands off

there is a government that gives you full control of this

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Post #: 4

RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/8/2014 11:15:28 PM

Tormodino

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Hands off for modding to change how it works.

(in reply to pycco)

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RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/8/2014 11:22:36 PM

pycco

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by making a government in this manner you could easily change how the private sector is handled. making them however you wanted them to be, such as no private sector or have them in any diminished state of your choosing.

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Post #: 6

RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/8/2014 11:32:00 PM

Tormodino

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Ok. Can you make them do different things? Like fight as mercenaries, or what have you? I am a little confused, since I had the impression that the way the private sector worked could not be modded.

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Post #: 7

RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/8/2014 11:40:41 PM

Malorn

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It can't be modded, there are governments which disable the private sector. I've noticed that most of the older forum members seem to not be interested in backing a push for more modding. Perhaps they know more about the devs and assume that it simply won't happen. Perhaps they don't really see the need.

I agree that a lot more should be moddable, but I've never been able to find many people who agree with me. I certainly don't wish to be rude, which is the danger when asking for content.

(in reply to Tormodino)

Post #: 8

RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/8/2014 11:53:14 PM

pycco

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not directly but yes you could make them have a weapons and such this would require you to mod diplomacy to not have a - with military ships, along with making designs yourself, you could also make it so that civilians use a "special" FTL that travels uber fast so little to no transport time, change the transfer rate of docking bays would also make you able to have nearly instant transport ships. i have not found a way to make the mining stations "teleport" goods yet though. the limits of modding are based largely on ideas and how do you implement this or that. i would prefer to have no civilian ships and have to mining stations teleport the goods to the nearest SP.

the reason most don't want to do this is because it breaks the game/ai largely TBH. as the ai is taught how to play with them. taking away the civilian ship's entirely is problematic from all my experiments.

< Message edited by pycco -- 6/9/2014 12:55:15 AM >

(in reply to Tormodino)

Post #: 9

RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/9/2014 12:35:47 AM

Tormodino

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Sweet. You could simulate a spectacular resource teleportation system. Matter-Information Conveyor. Now that's a late game tech right there. :D Very nice.

The core idea behind what I wrote is that there are a lot of factors to tweak in DW. The more of the games mechanics are opened up as part of the modding infrastructure, the better the mods will be. By changing values, like you spoke of, you can create widely different scenarios within the games mechanics. Simply allowing the modder to change the way resources are interacted with within the simulation would be huge in a sandbox like this.
Also, allowing separate tech/development trees for each empire with a more freeform "research" format, or even tied to events, which could be more or less forced depending on race. I mean. A man can dream.

(in reply to pycco)

Post #: 10

RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/9/2014 4:05:02 AM

ehsumrell1

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From: The Briar Patch Nebula
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malorn

It can't be modded, there are governments which disable the private sector. I've noticed that most of the older forum members seem to not be interested in backing a push for more modding. Perhaps they know more about the devs and assume that it simply won't happen. Perhaps they don't really see the need.

Hello Malorn;
As a "older forum member" I've been involved with Distant Worlds and Elliot Gibbs (THE One man developer for those who didn't know that) since Return Of The Shakturi.
I can attest that Elliot IS interested in how people perceive his game and their wish to interject their ideas to improve it. I've watched Elliot receive information through the 'Modders Wishlist' and the 'Master Wishlist' and integrate it into DW. An open public space monster/creature contest was held (Thank 'Wizz' for the SilverMist btw). That is why and how the expansions were created. Players asked for Carriers & Fighters, they were added. Players asked for Characters, they were added. Players asked to increase the number of races, shipsets, and so on, Elliot did that. Next, players asked can you make images, shipsets, races, UI, planets...etcetera modable, Elliot has done it. Even though his assistants and test team was scattered across the world, even though Hurricane Sandy played havoc with his agendas, schedules and plans, Elliot has delivered.
With Eric and Matrix' help, players who basically DEMANDED Distant Worlds be available on Steam (which
made extra testing and release delays inevitable), Elliot did it.

So no Malorn, speaking for myself, as you stated above, I don't see the need (AT THE MOMENT) for Elliot to do ANYTHING more toward modding until he is satisfied that 'Vanilla' DW Universe is WAD and integrating well with player mods as is. Plus, I'm sure he needs a rest.
Three weeks after release is not enough time to start pacifying every thirteenth request to change the game to something similar to someone else's wishes. Bug hunt and kill, installation issues across different platforms, Steam related issues, that should be our focus first. Then, whether it's DW2 or more updates to Universe (and one hopefully final one for Shadows expansion), that's when all of these good comments should start getting organized and a new Master Wishlist and Modder's Wishlist be created. Hopefully Erik, Elliot, the OP and my other team members won't fuss at me too bad for this rant. Just had to get it off my chest because I have witnessed what Elliot (and Erik) has gone through the last few years. If you wish to know Elliot a bit more and how Distant Worlds came to be, here is an article worth reading:
http://truepcgaming.com/2011/10/28/4x-space-odyssey-distant-worlds-interview/

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malorn
I agree that a lot more should be moddable, but I've never been able to find many people who agree with me. I certainly don't wish to be rude, which is the danger when asking for content.

Ask away for your content Malorn! As long as discussions, questions and responses are civil, respectful and provided with a wee bit of common sense, it's fully welcomed in these forums.
That is also a good way to achieve the "old forum member" status!

< Message edited by ehsumrell1 -- 6/9/2014 5:07:54 AM >

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RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/9/2014 4:19:18 AM

pycco

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@ehsumrell1
very nice, good perspective there, cant wait to see where the game ends up.
care to explain why you feel that it does not need to be opened up, thoughts on why they did not make the civilian sector mod friendly?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tormodino

Sweet. You could simulate a spectacular resource teleportation system. Matter-Information Conveyor. Now that's a late game tech right there. :D Very nice.

The core idea behind what I wrote is that there are a lot of factors to tweak in DW. The more of the games mechanics are opened up as part of the modding infrastructure, the better the mods will be. By changing values, like you spoke of, you can create widely different scenarios within the games mechanics. Simply allowing the modder to change the way resources are interacted with within the simulation would be huge in a sandbox like this.
Also, allowing separate tech/development trees for each empire with a more freeform "research" format, or even tied to events, which could be more or less forced depending on race. I mean. A man can dream.

the civilian section is largely unmodable because of it complexity. TBH i have seen no game that does half as well with this aspect or even a much much smaller scale of a civilian section that functions with minimal "hiccups".

what were you thinking of doing with a fully modable private sector?

"darkverse" will be epic imo. Darkspire is adding manufactured materials that are produced by the planets population. this will add a huge aspect to the game and give a well developed empires a huge edge and make planets worth more than just $$.

< Message edited by pycco -- 6/9/2014 5:26:20 AM >

(in reply to ehsumrell1)

Post #: 12

RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/9/2014 5:06:10 AM

Darkspire

Posts: 1986
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quote:

"darkverse" will be epic imo. Darkspire is adding manufactured materials that are produced by the planets population. this will add a huge aspect to the game and give a well developed empires a huge edge and make planets worth more than just $$.

Having been down for a few months I am a tad behind, moved all the races from the Legends version, resources have been rebuilt from scratch, added items and stretched others on the tech tree, just finishing the race upgrades with all the new additions since Legends, took me a day or so to work out the race DNA value ranges, the five characteristics, they now seem, more than ever to be the linchpin that a race is defined from, I have that well in hand now that I know what the value ranges are. Graphics aside from troops are done, adding new graphics as and when needed throughout the theme. Galactopedia is coming along, still have a few things that I would like to add to the theme from other sections, like facilities and wonders, so that will need to be brainworked. I would say about 80% done, theme runs without problems so will need balancing and tweaking, finding a few discrete testers for feedback and edits will not be a problem methinks before a general release.

Darkspire

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RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/9/2014 5:28:29 AM

pycco

Posts: 345
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From: United States of America
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OMG that's great glad you are getting a grip on it, never expected you to give an update though very neat

cant wait to try it out no rush though, so excited now

(in reply to Darkspire)

Post #: 14

RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/9/2014 7:21:00 AM

ehsumrell1

Posts: 2529
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pycco

@ehsumrell1
very nice, good perspective there, cant wait to see where the game ends up.
care to explain why you feel that it does not need to be opened up, thoughts on why they did not make the civilian sector mod friendly?

Thanks pycco;

After the numerous hours of testing that our test team did just to upgrade Shadows to Universe, it's
a SCARY thought to think about how it would be to have the private section open also. Remember, Elliot
is one man! He has a family and has to have a life as well...like in eat and sleep!
I'm an old-school programmer (cause I'm old!) and I SHUDDER to think of all the logic path testing,
subroutine modeling, etcetera that would have to be tested across 4 different operating system platforms, 3 or more types of processor thoroughfare and whatever else.

But my largest concern...imagine how many problems/bugs/mishaps would have to be dealt with if the
civilian sector was open to modding. We can all see just the problems that are cropping up now. Players
mostly are jumping right into the modding guide trying to mod a game that they, in most cases, haven't
put more than 40 hours in playing the vanilla game or all its variations to fully understand how it works.
The game has only been out what, three and a half weeks or so!
Then when their mod doesn't interact without an error, "the game is broken", the AI sucks, I can't do this or that!
It would just be multiplied. In closing pycco, my opinion is that we aren't ready for that yet.
Neither I believe would Elliot want it to be. It's the one part of what makes Distant Worlds so unique!

P.S. I must state though, that Elliot never ceases to amaze me!

< Message edited by ehsumrell1 -- 6/9/2014 8:28:29 AM >

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Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...

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RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/9/2014 8:36:58 AM

pycco

Posts: 345
Joined: 5/28/2013
From: United States of America
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1

quote:

ORIGINAL: pycco

@ehsumrell1
very nice, good perspective there, cant wait to see where the game ends up.
care to explain why you feel that it does not need to be opened up, thoughts on why they did not make the civilian sector mod friendly?

Thanks pycco;

After the numerous hours of testing that our test team did just to upgrade Shadows to Universe, it's
a SCARY thought to think about how it would be to have the private section open also. Remember, Elliot
is one man! He has a family and has to have a life as well...like in eat and sleep!
I'm an old-school programmer (cause I'm old!) and I SHUDDER to think of all the logic path testing,
subroutine modeling, etcetera that would have to be tested across 4 different operating system platforms, 3 or more types of processor thoroughfare and whatever else.

But my largest concern...imagine how many problems/bugs/mishaps would have to be dealt with if the
civilian sector was open to modding. We can all see just the problems that are cropping up now. Players
mostly are jumping right into the modding guide trying to mod a game that they, in most cases, haven't
put more than 40 hours in playing the vanilla game or all its variations to fully understand how it works.
The game has only been out what, three and a half weeks or so!
Then when their mod doesn't interact without an error, "the game is broken", the AI sucks, I can't do this or that!
It would just be multiplied. In closing pycco, my opinion is that we aren't ready for that yet.
Neither I believe would Elliot want it to be. It's the one part of what makes Distant Worlds so unique!

P.S. I must state though, that Elliot never ceases to amaze me!

ya Elliot does an unbelievably amazing job.

that is what i thought the civilian aspect is terrifyingly complicated,the algorithms alone are so touchy that i could see myself screwing it up so bad i would have no idea how to fix it, then the amount of omg i broke my game help posts to follow. as i said i have yet to see anything come close to this level of detail and functionality as the private sector aspect of the game. let alone the whole game.....

ya i can imagine how many weeks it would take in testing to get even a basic modding aspect for the private sector.
im glad he realized this and decided to draw the line.

was just wondering if i had the right idea about why somethings are mod friendly and some are not.

GREAT GAME have not found one that even comes close in most aspects.

thx for the response ehsumrell1. do you have any plans for mods?

< Message edited by pycco -- 6/9/2014 9:39:55 AM >

(in reply to ehsumrell1)

Post #: 16

RE: DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion - 6/9/2014 7:18:19 PM

ehsumrell1

Posts: 2529
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pycco

thx for the response ehsumrell1. do you have any plans for mods?

Your welcome pycco!
Yes I do. I currently have a compilation mod that is in testing as we speak that a colleague and I
are soon putting out. In addition, there is one other major mod that I have been honored to take
over by the original creator that will be a total conversion mod and out in hopefully a week or so.
It often takes more than just copying files over to a new directory structure and expecting it to work.
If there is not enough attention paid to detail there can be errors. There will be an announcement
in the Design & Modding forum when they've each been fully tested and are to be released.

Hopefully, we also will hear something soon from Eva Lilith concerning her Eve Total Conversion mod
changeover to Universe. That, mine, and Darkspire's 'Darkverse' mod when it's ready will be exciting
and right up there along with Haree78's Expanded Mod.

< Message edited by ehsumrell1 -- 6/9/2014 8:19:42 PM >

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DW:Universe - Brainstorm document for discussion