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New Race request/question - 6/10/2014 6:51:35 PM   
Nopkar

 

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Recently bought the game, love it to death. So much customization...such wow.

But on a personal note I'm not really in love with the races :(

This is probably just me but for some reason none of the races really jump out at me, more from an RP approach than an actual gameplay problem. I kinda like the Gizureans, they fit my playstyle on some days and for the other days there are the Ackdarians or Kaiden.

So many other races to pick from but I see one type is absent...where are the robotic AI races? Self Aware machines with a propensity to terminate meatbags and bring their version of utopian perfection to the galaxy...

I've attempted to scrounge up some info into making my own race, going as far as to outright copy another race and change the names but I seem to always do something wrong, breaking my game and forcing me to revert changes. It's going to take me time to create a few of these races myself, I'm patient so its not too much of a problem but I was wondering if there was a skilled modder out there that may have already thought of this for DW:U and has a couple ready to go or if anyone can direct me to a more comprehensive race creation guide?
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RE: New Race request/question - 6/10/2014 7:06:23 PM   
Darkspire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nopkar

Recently bought the game, love it to death. So much customization...such wow.

But on a personal note I'm not really in love with the races :(

This is probably just me but for some reason none of the races really jump out at me, more from an RP approach than an actual gameplay problem. I kinda like the Gizureans, they fit my playstyle on some days and for the other days there are the Ackdarians or Kaiden.

So many other races to pick from but I see one type is absent...where are the robotic AI races? Self Aware machines with a propensity to terminate meatbags and bring their version of utopian perfection to the galaxy...

I've attempted to scrounge up some info into making my own race, going as far as to outright copy another race and change the names but I seem to always do something wrong, breaking my game and forcing me to revert changes. It's going to take me time to create a few of these races myself, I'm patient so its not too much of a problem but I was wondering if there was a skilled modder out there that may have already thought of this for DW:U and has a couple ready to go or if anyone can direct me to a more comprehensive race creation guide?


Hi Nopkar, welcome to the forums

Race creation at its heart has not changed but with the release of Universe it has become more involved by utilizing the various moddable text files, components (making your own and adding them as a race specific component), resources (making your own and adding them as a racial bonus) etc.

The best way to learn is to have a read of the modding manual and then copy the race file you would like to make your own and edit each part and then playing and see what the change makes, see what the guide reads for the various parts of the file and then edit and backup your file.

Don't try to edit a swathe of things in one go, least not until you have become more confident with what the various sections do, if you go down that path you will only end up with a headache trying to work out what you have broken.

If you are still stuck then ask questions on here, there are many helpful folk on here, I will ask uncle Google as I have written a few before on race creation, the basics will be there but you will need to remember of the changes Universe has brought to the table.

Darkspire

< Message edited by Darkspire -- 6/10/2014 8:07:10 PM >


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RE: New Race request/question - 6/10/2014 7:10:55 PM   
Nanaki

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nopkar

So many other races to pick from but I see one type is absent...where are the robotic AI races? Self Aware machines with a propensity to terminate meatbags and bring their version of utopian perfection to the galaxy...


Well, there are the mechanoids, given they are not normally playable, but a simple modification could fix that.

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RE: New Race request/question - 6/10/2014 8:37:33 PM   
Cauldyth

 

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Haree's excellent Extended mod has some new mechanoid races, as well as some other very interesting ones. Highly recommended.

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RE: New Race request/question - 6/10/2014 11:28:19 PM   
Nopkar

 

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I'm actually going to try that tonight. I looked at that mod earlier and wasn't sure if there were any robotic races in that picture but I do like the art of some of them. worth a shot.

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Post #: 5
RE: New Race request/question - 6/11/2014 12:00:04 AM   
Unforeseen


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I like the Ortain.

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RE: New Race request/question - 6/11/2014 12:35:56 PM   
Solarius Scorch


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I must say I share the sentiment of not liking some of the vanilla races. I think it's one of the weak points of the game; they're neither hard-SF serious nor space opera fun, but somewhere in-between. Honestly, they're very flat and cartoonish; they're not only incapable of competing against designs in giants like Master of Orion 2, but even most other games like StarDrive.for example.

Therefore I'm in the process of substituting most vanilla races with alternatives. I think I'll also turn it into a Master of Orion mod. (If I ever get around to do it, anyway.)

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RE: New Race request/question - 6/12/2014 2:16:55 AM   
Antarian


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I'm also not a big fan of the stock races, and replace them immediately with Star Trek classics and other amazing races designed by the excellent crew present and accounted for on this deck.

I HIGHLY reccommend you download the Extended Races mod IMMEDIATELY, your game experience will shoot up from wow to 'I cannot stop playing this game'.

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Post #: 8
RE: New Race request/question - 6/15/2014 9:53:17 AM   
Cauldyth

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Solarius Scorch
they're not only incapable of competing against designs in giants like Master of Orion 2, but even most other games like StarDrive.for example.


Hmm, DW could use some plant races. Fungal too, like the Mycon in Star Control 2.

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Post #: 9
RE: New Race request/question - 6/15/2014 10:21:37 AM   
Tcby


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+1 for DW Extended. Regarding mechanoids it has the Ortain (exterminate) and the Napoar (peaceful expansion).

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Post #: 10
RE: New Race request/question - 6/15/2014 4:26:28 PM   
gerishnakov


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Taking inspiration from other SF franchises, whether game, movie, or book, is a great way to come up with things to add to the game.

I'm about 90% of the way toward completely modding in Mass Effect's Geth machine race, using the Mass Effect mod you can find here as a base to work from.

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Post #: 11
RE: New Race request/question - 6/15/2014 5:44:05 PM   
Nanaki

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Solarius Scorch

I must say I share the sentiment of not liking some of the vanilla races. I think it's one of the weak points of the game; they're neither hard-SF serious nor space opera fun, but somewhere in-between. Honestly, they're very flat and cartoonish; they're not only incapable of competing against designs in giants like Master of Orion 2, but even most other games like StarDrive.for example.


Hard sci-fi never really had a 'flavor' of alien race, as, the only things we know about alien races is what we can prove/disprove through chemistry (Note: Silicon-based lifeforms are improbable) and the liklihood that we are not alone. Most hard sci-fi just avoids the question entirely as hard sci-fi tends to accept the fact that FTL travel is impossible with our current understanding of astrophysics.

I like DW's races, but the art could use either redoing or improvement, the faux-3D currently reminds me too much of Master of Orion 3 which is not a good thing. If anything, I feel kind of sad. In terms of variety, the 4X genre peaked with Master of Orion 2 and went downhill since, it is like 4Xs almost universally decided to take a cue from MOO3 even though MOO3 was a big pile of garbage.

This opinion might be unpopular, but I dislike Extended's additional races (especially Xhuman) and I dislike the redone portraits even more, especially the space suited ones. Might just be my opinion, but the whole purpose of a racial portrait is to give you some idea of what that race looks like, and having it space suited completely defeats the purpose.

But, it is only an opinion, the only way you will know you will like something or not is to try it out for yourself.

< Message edited by Nanaki -- 6/15/2014 7:37:27 PM >


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RE: New Race request/question - 6/16/2014 12:24:04 AM   
Solarius Scorch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

Hard sci-fi never really had a 'flavor' of alien race, as, the only things we know about alien races is what we can prove/disprove through chemistry (Note: Silicon-based lifeforms are improbable) and the liklihood that we are not alone. Most hard sci-fi just avoids the question entirely as hard sci-fi tends to accept the fact that FTL travel is impossible with our current understanding of astrophysics.


It's hard to argue with. I didn't want to bring up this argument before, since it maybe a bit subjective, but I think all attempts of making "serious" space species in 4X games were spectacular failures, as shown by Master of Orion 3 (according to the devs, this was the plan). So why not do it in a bit more fabulous way?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki
I like DW's races, but the art could use either redoing or improvement, the faux-3D currently reminds me too much of Master of Orion 3 which is not a good thing. If anything, I feel kind of sad. In terms of variety, the 4X genre peaked with Master of Orion 2 and went downhill since, it is like 4Xs almost universally decided to take a cue from MOO3 even though MOO3 was a big pile of garbage.


Hear, hear.
As for the DW races, my problem with them isn't just graphics, but general concepts: they're often woefully flat and one-dimensional. Sure, maybe designs of Klackons or Darloks weren't particularly elaborated, but they were sufficiently vague to be just right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki
This opinion might be unpopular, but I dislike Extended's additional races (especially Xhuman) and I dislike the redone portraits even more, especially the space suited ones. Might just be my opinion, but the whole purpose of a racial portrait is to give you some idea of what that race looks like, and having it space suited completely defeats the purpose.


I think the problem with XHumans is that they stood out as an obvious duplication. In my current project, I decided to take it further and actually make three human factions, and with some humanoids to boot. I'm aiming for a set that may be more humanoid and perhaps even naive, but consistently so.

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RE: New Race request/question - 6/16/2014 1:07:51 AM   
Nanaki

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Solarius Scorch
It's hard to argue with. I didn't want to bring up this argument before, since it maybe a bit subjective, but I think all attempts of making "serious" space species in 4X games were spectacular failures, as shown by Master of Orion 3 (according to the devs, this was the plan). So why not do it in a bit more fabulous way?


Thing is, the whole concept of 'serious' space species went endemic after MOO3 and is one of the reasons why I avoided the 4X genre for so long. Aside from it boiling down to just making alien races 50 shades of eldrich abomination, which makes the races about as interesting as watching paint dry, the whole root concept reeks of arrogance, especially since there is the possibility we could be horribly wrong and aliens could end up looking more familiar than we would normally assume. The key factor is that we do not know.


quote:


Hear, hear.
As for the DW races, my problem with them isn't just graphics, but general concepts: they're often woefully flat and one-dimensional. Sure, maybe designs of Klackons or Darloks weren't particularly elaborated, but they were sufficiently vague to be just right.


I would say MOO2 was even worse in this regard, considering that DW actually subverts some of the normal stereotypes such as the warrior cats while DW mostly played all the tropes straight. Given, I would rather have stereotypes than the bland, uninteresting, 50 shades of ugly that has mostly permiated the genre since MOO3.

So far, I think the best ideas will be familiar races with interesting twists. DW sort of does that with the Zenox and a few others.

quote:


I think the problem with XHumans is that they stood out as an obvious duplication. In my current project, I decided to take it further and actually make three human factions, and with some humanoids to boot. I'm aiming for a set that may be more humanoid and perhaps even naive, but consistently so.


I am not a huge fan of seperate human 'factions' unless one is developing a game with deliberately few alien races, generally, there are barely enough interesting ideas to go between alien races that having multiple human factions sucking up ideas seems like a bad idea.

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RE: New Race request/question - 6/16/2014 10:14:58 PM   
Solarius Scorch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

Thing is, the whole concept of 'serious' space species went endemic after MOO3 and is one of the reasons why I avoided the 4X genre for so long. Aside from it boiling down to just making alien races 50 shades of eldrich abomination, which makes the races about as interesting as watching paint dry, the whole root concept reeks of arrogance, especially since there is the possibility we could be horribly wrong and aliens could end up looking more familiar than we would normally assume. The key factor is that we do not know.


100% agreed, at least regarding space games. In sci-fi literature it's a bit more complicated, since we can have the concept dissected and developed, but games can't do so (or at least shouldn't, since that's not why they're made for).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki
I would say MOO2 was even worse in this regard, considering that DW actually subverts some of the normal stereotypes such as the warrior cats while DW mostly played all the tropes straight. Given, I would rather have stereotypes than the bland, uninteresting, 50 shades of ugly that has mostly permiated the genre since MOO3.

So far, I think the best ideas will be familiar races with interesting twists. DW sort of does that with the Zenox and a few others.


Can't argue. :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki
I am not a huge fan of seperate human 'factions' unless one is developing a game with deliberately few alien races, generally, there are barely enough interesting ideas to go between alien races that having multiple human factions sucking up ideas seems like a bad idea.


I think it depends on the "What Measure Is a Non-Human?" factor. Going back to MoO2, I'd say one third of races can be considered as human variants. I would like to play on this a bit more, making human factions a bit more different from one another and adding some species that are also quite human ("space elves" and the like).

If you say that it's not very elegant - or just plain chauvinist - to have so many human-like species and only a similar number of various eldritch abominations, well, you'd be right. But I think games should primarily reflect what players can identify with or are excited to play as, not to make everything symmetrical. A good 4X game with aliens is one you like all races; a bad one is when you feel like sticking to one race (humans) and just beat the hell outta rest.

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RE: New Race request/question - 6/16/2014 10:44:54 PM   
ParagonExile

 

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Personally, I prefer science fiction where there are either very few, distinct aliens (Mass Effect) or only subfactions of Humanity (Foundation). Big assortments of random aliens (Star Wars, Star Trek) don't really appeal much when it comes to characterizing them; they just sort of fade together. More realistic too. It's unreasonable to assume Humans (and aliens) will align themselves with some monolithic species-wide government, at least continuously or without conflict. Divides, like with the Ortain and the... Ortain, or the Humans and XHumans, or the Napoar, brings a lot of depth in my opinion.

The Distant Worlds expanded roster is one of the only situations where I find myself liking the huge diversity. Hopefully some of them will be incorporated into the next game.

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RE: New Race request/question - 6/17/2014 12:17:23 AM   
Nanaki

 

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Mass Effect is not a good example, the number of species in the Mass Effect games quite easily approaches that of your average 4X, and, while it does occasionally lampshade or even outright subvert itself in individual examples (Wrex, Legion, etc), it mostly plays the tropes straight. You have your warrior race, your scientist race, your hot babe who likes to sex everything race, your merchant race, your omnicidal robots, et cetra et cetra. I probably would have considered it a better series if there were no reapers. Am I the only one who saw Mass Effect 3's lousy ending from lightyears away?

Well-done aliens are difficult to find. The only examples I can think of off-hand are virtually every single one from Starbound, the Iskai from Albion, the Treecats from Honor Harrington, and the Vell-os (okay, technically and aesthetically human, but split off from humanity thousands of years ago) from EV Nova.

Animals make great case studies, pick an animal, observe its behavior, the way it communicates, the way it reacts to threats, the way it reacts to its own kind, and try to build a civilization from that. Note that you actually have to observe the animal, because animals tend to act/react very differently than what humans assume. Note that you probably will realize somewhere along the line that, certain traits are simply required in order to naturally build a civilization out of. For example, you can take your average Terran cat, make it anthropomorphic, opposable thumbs, an equal if not superior intellect to humans, and in spite of that you probably will not get a civilization from the results simply because the concept of 'pack' or 'tribe' is simply absent from most felids. A single individual, no matter how talented, cannot build an entire civilization by himself or herself.

quote:


If you say that it's not very elegant - or just plain chauvinist - to have so many human-like species and only a similar number of various eldritch abominations, well, you'd be right. But I think games should primarily reflect what players can identify with or are excited to play as, not to make everything symmetrical. A good 4X game with aliens is one you like all races; a bad one is when you feel like sticking to one race (humans) and just beat the hell outta rest.


I think the best route is to have the entire sliding scale occupied. A few near-humans, a few eldrich abominations, and a few that are somewhere in between.

As for 'liking' and 'disliking' races, one of the reasons, in theory, that developers like to throw in a lot of races is because, chances are, different people have different tastes, and the general idea is that everyone will like at least one of the flavors. This theory does hold water, as Starbound, as well designed and interesting as its alien races are, there are a number of people who simply do not like any of the races. Luckily, in Starbound's case, there are mods to fill the gap.

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Post #: 17
RE: New Race request/question - 6/17/2014 1:55:18 AM   
Haree78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki
This opinion might be unpopular, but I dislike Extended's additional races (especially Xhuman) and I dislike the redone portraits even more, especially the space suited ones. Might just be my opinion, but the whole purpose of a racial portrait is to give you some idea of what that race looks like, and having it space suited completely defeats the purpose.


Don't worry you're entirely entitled to your opinion, we all like different things.
For me race portraits are the ambassadors, they are what the race looks like when they come to you to speak terms or discuss some trade agreement. If I was paying someone to create the art it might have been entirely a good idea to do a more anatomical picture of the alien for the Galactopedia, but I did not have that luxury.
I would have found it very strange having only naked aliens speaking to me given our (admittedly unreliably 1) sample set shows civilised beings like to clothe themselves. In distant worlds we see this image when the Aliens talk to us, although in English, in their own fashion, so I needed images that reflect how they may appear when this occurs.

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Post #: 18
RE: New Race request/question - 6/17/2014 10:39:54 AM   
Nanaki

 

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The assumption that civilized beings would like to clothe themselves may not necessarily be a true one, even among human civilizations there were quite a few whom placed lesser (or even none at all) value on clothing. Infact, the cultural differences between current western civilization and other civilizations also make an excellent case study when writing about alien races, it really is interesting how even among human civilizations there have been huge differences, unfortunately the death or conversion of virtually all of these civilizations has sort of dulled our senses as to how different humans can be.

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RE: New Race request/question - 6/17/2014 10:54:45 AM   
ParagonExile

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

The assumption that civilized beings would like to clothe themselves may not necessarily be a true one, even among human civilizations there were quite a few whom placed lesser (or even none at all) value on clothing. Infact, the cultural differences between current western civilization and other civilizations also make an excellent case study when writing about alien races, it really is interesting how even among human civilizations there have been huge differences, unfortunately the death or conversion of virtually all of these civilizations has sort of dulled our senses as to how different humans can be.



It may seem like a trifling issue, but cultures/species that don't value clothing will have their range of habitation reduced ten-fold on their home planet and elsewhere, which would both mean they are less likely to survive (fewer replacements)and slower to progress (less experience = less adaptation).

It may be an accident that the Europeans and Asians, two peoples which placed heavy emphasis on clothing, grew to dominate the planet, but I'm willing to say it wasn't.

Before even them; if our original African ancestors never used clothing, then the Ice Age would've effectively stopped them in their tracks when they tried to emigrate to the middle east and europe. This would've been disastrous, as Africa is a terrible place for technical civilization to both start and sustain itself.

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Post #: 20
RE: New Race request/question - 6/17/2014 11:17:46 AM   
Nanaki

 

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In the case of humans, yes, if only because humans sans clothing are not particularly well adapted to life outside the savannahs of Africa. Aside from that, there are a number of large and small animals whom have managed to adapt to a massive variety of climates without the use of clothing. Sure, none of them are as particularly adaptive as humans are, but there probably is not a whole lot of difference between a home range of 90% and a home range of 99%, and it is not like such species wont consider the use of clothing when travelling in the areas considered inhospitable. There is a difference between not placing a whole lot of cultural emphasis on clothing, and being hostile to the concept entirely.

As for dominating the planet, only Western European civilization managed to do that. The 'other' civilizations on the planet, Chinese, Middle Eastern, et cetra were simply those whom managed to avoid being destroyed or converted, either due to being too large or too well-equipped for European armies to destroy or dominate, or too small and far away from the Europeans for them to bother.

quote:


This would've been disastrous, as Africa is a terrible place for technical civilization to both start and sustain itself.


The Egyptians would probably beg to differ.

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Post #: 21
RE: New Race request/question - 6/17/2014 11:49:28 AM   
ParagonExile

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

In the case of humans, yes, if only because humans sans clothing are not particularly well adapted to life outside the savannahs of Africa. Aside from that, there are a number of large and small animals whom have managed to adapt to a massive variety of climates without the use of clothing. Sure, none of them are as particularly adaptive as humans are, but there probably is not a whole lot of difference between a home range of 90% and a home range of 99%, and it is not like such species wont consider the use of clothing when travelling in the areas considered inhospitable. There is a difference between not placing a whole lot of cultural emphasis on clothing, and being hostile to the concept entirely.


Fair enough, but you'd need to provide evidence of this. We don't know how much intelligence is related to physiology (if at all) beyond simple brain-to-body ratio. And unfortunately, we only know of one technical sapient race, us. It may be that the trade-offs between dexterity/intelligence and innate adaptability preclude each other to some extent or the other. I 'dunno

Keep in mind however, that Humans are the most abundant large animals on Earth by a large margin, and we outnumber even most small mammals and birds.

quote:

As for dominating the planet, only Western European civilization managed to do that. The 'other' civilizations on the planet, Chinese, Middle Eastern, et cetra were simply those whom managed to avoid being destroyed or converted, either due to being too large or too well-equipped for European armies to destroy or dominate, or too small and far away from the Europeans for them to bother.


I think that can be argued.

Japan for example, has never been totally overtaken by Europeans, only ever losing to the US with the use of a massively destructive war. Before that, they held sway over hundreds of millions of people. China, India and the Middle East were also seats of immense empires. European dominance in the 1000's was transitory.

quote:


The Egyptians would probably beg to differ.


The Egyptians, for all their accomplishments, were primitive simpletons.

Africa has no beasts of burden, has an inhospitable climate not conductive to farming, its natural mineral resources are difficult to reach without the aid of machines and so on. We originated there, but we were not made there. China, India and Europe were vastly more powerful and developed because they had what Africa didn't; ease of access to resources.

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Post #: 22
RE: New Race request/question - 6/17/2014 12:06:45 PM   
Mansen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile

Keep in mind however, that Humans are the most abundant large animals on Earth by a large margin, and we outnumber even most small mammals and birds.


That's an easy claim to make when there are so many subspecies of birds mammals and god knows what else on the planet.

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Post #: 23
RE: New Race request/question - 6/17/2014 12:37:35 PM   
ParagonExile

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mansen
That's an easy claim to make when there are so many subspecies of birds mammals and god knows what else on the planet.


I know Humans outnumber nearly all large animals (~human size animals) by leaps and bounds. I think the only exceptions are goats.

Smaller animals, while more common overall, are less common an a species-for-species basis. We outnumber many species of small animals, but are beaten by small animal genus' and demolished by their families. For example, there are more than ten times as many Humans as red squirrels, but their family of Sciuridae (spelling?) eclipses us by billions.

Then there's chickens, who number over ten billion, but screw chickens, they're dumb.

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Post #: 24
RE: New Race request/question - 6/17/2014 12:45:04 PM   
Mansen


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Exactly the point I was making - Stating such a claim is entirely useless because of how we decide to set apart species and genus in various ways.

Humans are no in way or shape dominant on this earth. We may rule it, but not through numbers.

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(in reply to ParagonExile)
Post #: 25
RE: New Race request/question - 6/17/2014 12:55:48 PM   
ParagonExile

 

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I actually don't understand what this conversation is about.

lol

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Post #: 26
RE: New Race request/question - 6/17/2014 2:53:58 PM   
Nanaki

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile
Fair enough, but you'd need to provide evidence of this. We don't know how much intelligence is related to physiology (if at all) beyond simple brain-to-body ratio. And unfortunately, we only know of one technical sapient race, us. It may be that the trade-offs between dexterity/intelligence and innate adaptability preclude each other to some extent or the other. I 'dunno


As for evidence that there are other cosmopolitan species other than humans, here you go. As for the brain, unfortunately, the only answer I can definitively provide is 'I do not know', the brain is by far the least understood organ, and there is still a lot of unaswered questions as to what exactly is necessary to have a sentient species. Note that there are likely a huge number of factors and brain-to-body ratio is only one of those, other major factors likely include total body mass and how the brain is wired/subdivided. Infact, you can create a non-human with exactly the same brain-to-body ratio and body mass as humans, but they may not necessarily be sentient due to how their brains are wired. However, it is not unreasonable to say that a non-human race can have the same brain-to-body ratio and body mass and can possibly be sentient as well.

quote:


Keep in mind however, that Humans are the most abundant large animals on Earth by a large margin, and we outnumber even most small mammals and birds.


This is largely a product of the agricultural revolution, and later the industrial revolution. Prior to the industrial revolution human population stayed below a billion, and before the agricultural revolution (and civilization), human populations were only in the 5-10 million level. sauce

quote:


I think that can be argued.


No, it cannot. The British, French, Portugese, Spanish, Dutch, and German empires came to span most of the globe. The Chinese empire never went past mainland China, and the Japanese empire never expanded far past its shores.
One Two and Three maps that show that most of the world, aside from China, Turkey, part of the Middle East, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran, were 'colonized' by Europeans at some point or another.

quote:


Japan for example, has never been totally overtaken by Europeans, only ever losing to the US with the use of a massively destructive war. Before that, they held sway over hundreds of millions of people. China, India and the Middle East were also seats of immense empires.


The Japanese empire only had about ~70-80 million people at its height, and then it was defeated, occupied, and culturally changed by the US in the aftermath of World War 2. You mention that they were never overtaken by Europeans, this is wrong, the US (European in itself) had.

quote:


European dominance in the 1000's was transitory.


Even to this day European-descended culture and values dominate the world. The places where Western culture does not dominate outright are few, and even in those places western culture is slowly seeping in with exception of violently isolationist cultures like the Sentinelese. Aside from a massive catastrophic collapse, like which would happen in a global nuclear war, that trend will continue.

quote:


The Egyptians, for all their accomplishments, were primitive simpletons.


You are forgetting Egypt, alongside the Tigris/Euphrates rivers set in the equally inhospitable Middle East, is where civilization originated. You are correct in that it was not the place of the industrial revolution, but we are not talking about the industrial revolution, we are talking about civilization.

< Message edited by Nanaki -- 6/17/2014 4:01:43 PM >


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(in reply to ParagonExile)
Post #: 27
RE: New Race request/question - 6/17/2014 4:40:19 PM   
ParagonExile

 

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Before I say anything else, plese keep in mind there is a language barrier here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki
As for evidence that there are other cosmopolitan species other than humans, here you go.


This was never an issue and I never objected to this. :3

quote:

As for the brain, unfortunately, the only answer I can definitively provide is 'I do not know', the brain is by far the least understood organ, and there is still a lot of unaswered questions as to what exactly is necessary to have a sentient species. Note that there are likely a huge number of factors and brain-to-body ratio is only one of those, other major factors likely include total body mass and how the brain is wired/subdivided. Infact, you can create a non-human with exactly the same brain-to-body ratio and body mass as humans, but they may not necessarily be sentient due to how their brains are wired. However, it is not unreasonable to say that a non-human race can have the same brain-to-body ratio and body mass and can possibly be sentient as well.


You mirror my own thoughts.

quote:


This is largely a product of the agricultural revolution, and later the industrial revolution. Prior to the industrial revolution human population stayed below a billion, and before the agricultural revolution (and civilization), human populations were only in the 5-10 million level. sauce


Absolutely correct.

Our ability to shape both the world and our tools (including clothes lol) is what gives us an edge. Again, no complaints.

quote:


No, it cannot. The British, French, Portugese, Spanish, Dutch, and German empires came to span most of the globe. The Chinese empire never went past mainland China, and the Japanese empire never expanded far past its shores.
One Two and Three maps that show that most of the world, aside from China, Turkey, part of the Middle East, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran, were 'colonized' by Europeans at some point or another.


In case you forgot, that's an immense number of people and huge tracts of land, and those areas never being dominated is a huge part of why they are distinct today.The map also includes Russia there, even though Russians are culturally, ethnically, linguistically and (mostly) geographically not European. Coincidentally, Russia is by far the world's largest nation, and much of Siberia is more-or-less ignored by everyone. You also neglected to mention Japan.

Even people that were colonized, such as the Native Americans or Indians, still maintained to keep their cultural identity and spread that to hundreds of millions of people, despite a foreign power nominally ruling over them.

quote:


The Japanese empire only had about ~70-80 million people at its height, and then it was defeated, occupied, and culturally changed by the US in the aftermath of World War 2. You mention that they were never overtaken by Europeans, this is wrong, the US (European in itself) had.


The Area formally controlled by Japan (Manchuria, parts of Korea, and the home islands) was that size, you're entirely correct. However, the extent of their conquest from the 1930s to 1943 put almost every nation on the Pacific at their mercy. Australia and the United States were only saved by sheer dumb luck that the American carrier groups were not docked when Hawaii was bombed. They also occupied and dominated much of coastal China.

The United States had its beginning in British settlers, but to call them Europeans is akin to calling me Arab because my 10th great-grandparents were from Arabia. It's strictly-speaking correct, but it's still wrong from a practical point of view. The Americans, Canadians and the remainder of the south are wholly distinct entities now.

quote:


Even to this day European-descended culture and values dominate the world.


There are about twice as many Asians living in the south-east of their continent, with a wholly different culture from us, than there are white Europeans and Americans total.

quote:

The places where Western culture does not dominate outright are few, and even in those places western culture is slowly seeping in with exception of violently isolationist cultures like the Sentinelese. Aside from a massive catastrophic collapse, like which would happen in a global nuclear war, that trend will continue.


If you're talking about capitalism or consumerism, then you're correct. That is, however, not the province of the countries we refer to as the west, it's an economic policy. Traditional cultures still exist in greater numbers than what we have here, and they incorporate that into what they already have.

I can imagine homogenization of culture in hundreds of years, or much sooner if we continue to improve interconnection, but I highly doubt it will be what we consider western.

quote:


You are forgetting Egypt, alongside the Tigris/Euphrates rivers set in the equally inhospitable Middle East, is where civilization originated. You are correct in that it was not the place of the industrial revolution, but we are not talking about the industrial revolution, we are talking about civilization.


What's the point of a civilization if it just ends up floundering in the sand?

You can invent math, build huge monoliths, dream up incredible pantheons and pioneer sweeping social change, but if you lack the ability to use them due to your circumstances you may as well not exist (Ignoring the obvious benefits they gave us with their experience).

Anyways, I don't understand why we're having this conversation, and I don't understand the relevance to Distant Worlds :D

(in reply to Nanaki)
Post #: 28
RE: New Race request/question - 6/17/2014 5:06:05 PM   
Nanaki

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 6/4/2014
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I would not say that Russia is not culturally European, maybe it was like this in ancient times, but ever since Peter The Great, Russia has most certainly imported a great deal of Western culture.

quote:


The Area formally controlled by Japan (Manchuria, parts of Korea, and the home islands) was that size, you're entirely correct. However, the extent of their conquest from the 1930s to 1943 put almost every nation on the Pacific at their mercy. Australia and the United States were only saved by sheer dumb luck that the American carrier groups were not docked when Hawaii was bombed. They also occupied and dominated much of coastal China.


Imperial Japan was certainly powerful, but even if it sunk the US Carrier groups it would have lost in the end, US manufacturing capability at the time was greater than the rest of the world combined, and Pearl Harbor also made a huge doctrinal change in the US, whom figured out first-hand just how important carriers would be, while the Japanese High Command had, even after the massive success of Pearl Harbor, still largely placed carriers secondary to battleships.

The only difference is that the the war would have been likely longer and bloodier, with more atomic bombs dropped.

quote:


The United States had its beginning in British settlers, but to call them Europeans is akin to calling me Arab because my 10th great-grandparents were from Arabia. It's strictly-speaking correct, but it's still wrong from a practical point of view. The Americans, Canadians and the remainder of the south are wholly distinct entities now.


The US is not so much a different entity as it represents an evolution of European culture that started with the Reformation, Industrial Revolution, and the rise of democratic government in the ashes of Europe's autocracies. European culture has hardly been monolithic, it has changed enormously since it first went global during the Age of Sail.

quote:


There are about twice as many Asians living in the south-east of their continent, with a wholly different culture from us, than there are white Europeans and Americans total.


Population =/= Power, and even in those areas, western culture is growing. China is by far one of the highest conversion rates for Christians, and India itself is having a lot of internal unrest as local culture clashes with western-imported culture.

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Post #: 29
RE: New Race request/question - 6/17/2014 6:58:03 PM   
Tehlongone


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I thought you were talking dominance of the West as opposed to specifically the geographic entity of Europe. In that case The USA is definitely both part of the Western Sphere and essentially European culture-wise with only a few differences.

Russia is culturally European and much of the most developed area is in Europe. The only reason they are not part of the Western Sphere is because they choose not to.

South America is culturally distinct but shaped enormously by European influence. Language, religion and much of their culture is essentially European.

India is pretty distinct but were dominated for quite a while and has had their culture changed to some degree.

China is fully distinct but was dominated (albeit without conquest) for a long time, same goes for the Middle East, except most of that was conquered.

Japan is very influenced by the west and so is most of the other East Asian nations.

How is that not dominance? You can't call Asians dominant just because some of them managed to avoid being overly dominated themselves. The amount of people in a country is not evidence of any kind of dominance if they never expand outside their own part of the world, at most evidence of resilience.

(in reply to ParagonExile)
Post #: 30
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