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Weapon Ranges - 3/19/2001 2:25:00 AM

troopie

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Are the weapon ranges in SPWAW meant to be maximum range or effective range? I ask because the Mauser and Enfield rifles have max ranges of 1800 metres, that's about 36 hexes. But of course, you seldom see a target at that range and very, very few people can hit anything at that range. troopie

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- 3/19/2001 2:29:00 AM

Latka

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When I was trying to qualify for a high-power shooting team in the Marine Corps we'd shoot the M-1 out to 600 yards. I heard guys in the CONUS would shoot on 1000yd ranges. We would have done it out here (Hawai'i), but just didn't have the space. When I cranked the elevation up to the max (1000?) It sure pointed the barrel skyward. Can't imagine using it for anything other than area shooting at that range though. -Andy

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- 3/19/2001 4:54:00 AM

troopie

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I have hit stationary targets, size of a man on a horse, at 800 metres with an unoptimised Mauser 98 and I am not onsidered an exceptional shot. I admit the target was not shooting at me. I have read of .50 cal. Barrett snipers hitting targets at 1500 metres. During the Boer war, Boer snipers hit British mounted scouts at over a mile, and routinely hit British soldiers at 750 metres. (A noted instance was at Colenso, where a Boer sniper amused himself by shooting the drones off a bagpiper's pipes.) In WW2 ranges were much shorter. I know most temperate climate combat happens at 350 metres or less. It's about 100 metres or less in thick bush. I just wondered what the ranges were meant to simulate. troopie

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- 3/19/2001 5:38:00 AM

Latka

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...another thing on ranges in the game. I was playing as the Germans in '41 the other day. Looked at my 88s and noticed that they had a range of something like 80(!) or something equally as high. I think it'd be a very rare battle indeed where the visiblity was that high, correct? Even when I place them on top of "height 20" hills I still only can shoot out to 20 or 30 hexes. Nothin' like gettin a tank kill at that range though! :) -Andy

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- 3/19/2001 6:33:00 AM

Paul Vebber

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effective range

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- 3/19/2001 6:39:00 AM

Latka

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Hahaha... a simple, yet elegant answer, Paul :) =A

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- 3/19/2001 9:16:00 AM

troopie

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Baie Dankie, Paul. I got the answer I was looking for. troopie

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- 3/19/2001 10:39:00 AM

USMCGrunt

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quote:

Originally posted by Latka: When I was trying to qualify for a high-power shooting team in the Marine Corps we'd shoot the M-1 out to 600 yards. I heard guys in the CONUS would shoot on 1000yd ranges. We would have done it out here (Hawai'i), but just didn't have the space. When I cranked the elevation up to the max (1000?) It sure pointed the barrel skyward. Can't imagine using it for anything other than area shooting at that range though. -Andy

You must have tried quite a while ago Latka if you were still using M1s. I was on the MCAGCC Base Rifle Team in 92 and we were using Match Accurized M14s/M1As. Yes we did fire from the 600yd line, however I am not aware of any military high power matches firing at the 1000yd line. At 29 Palms that was strictly used for sniper team requal's. While the M14 has the capability to engage point targets out to 1000 yards (Uses the same 7.62mm round as the m40a1 sniper rifle), you run into the limitation of the human eye. A man sized target is nearly indiscernable at that range for targeting purposes without some type of optical enhancement.

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- 3/19/2001 11:36:00 AM

MindSpy

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[MindSpy This almost sounds like the long range firing done in WW2 with the German tnks. A platoon would form up and one units would fire off a spotting round which would then be corrected. Then the platoon would be assigned the gun sight values and the unit would fire on the distant tank targets as a group. Certainly the later Soviet's practice of such formation firing for their tanks is a good sign that it is effective (for it's day) but it is a long way from from what we can do in the game since only individual gun fire is depicted. i guess you could say that this would be a good kind of suppression fire tactic as several rounds impacting a tank would have a greater effect on tank crew morale then individual shots that also don't penetrate too often at such ranges. to boot just to even try to return fire on such a formation that is platoon firing on selected tanks in your formation is pretty demanding . one you have to stop and form up two your opp if prficient will have placed their tanks so that only portion of their frontal armour is targetable and three it plain and simple much more difficult to successfuly return fire at these ranges without the superlative optics that the german tanks poossess. Seems pretty unfair. A hell of a tactic though. MINDSPY

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- 3/19/2001 12:10:00 PM

Pack Rat

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At one point in the games evolution it did model benifit from group fire. It was added in to the percent to hit if it was the same target that was shoot at by a unit in the same group. I might be wrong on this , but I seem to recall it I think in SP1.

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- 3/20/2001 10:54:00 AM

Kluckenbill

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I have a sizeable collection of old military rifles and I have always been amused at the incredible long range sights on the WW1 and (some) WW2 era guns. If you max out the rear sight on some of the old Mausers, Mannlichers, Mosin's etc, its like shooting a howitzer. I've always assumed that these sights were holdovers from the days of massed infantry maneuvering and that it was deemed practical to shoot at large masses of men at great (1500 meter plus) ranges in 1914. I can't imagine hitting a running or hiding infantryman at anything much above 200 meters, but then, I'm not much of a rifle shot.

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- 3/20/2001 11:26:00 AM

AmmoSgt

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One of my Friends ( a class C license holder) has a primo Maxium watercooled HMG with a set of Trench sights thats allows for indirect MG fire into trenches ...That was WW1 .. Doctrine Changes , but some Old Stuff hangs on ..ask a Leatherneck ..why they are called Leathernecks..1000m sights and 30-06 makes a much sense as 5.56 and 500m sure why not ...Fired and quailified with a G3/GSG-9 sniper rifle but that was 300m and with a 3x-9x variable scope ..I know there are National NRA matches for 1000m ...I can't imagine ....

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- 3/20/2001 12:23:00 PM

USMCGrunt

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quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt: One of my Friends ( a class C license holder) has a primo Maxium watercooled HMG with a set of Trench sights thats allows for indirect MG fire into trenches ...That was WW1 .. Doctrine Changes , but some Old Stuff hangs on ..ask a Leatherneck ..why they are called Leathernecks..1000m sights and 30-06 makes a much sense as 5.56 and 500m sure why not ...Fired and quailified with a G3/GSG-9 sniper rifle but that was 300m and with a 3x-9x variable scope ..I know there are National NRA matches for 1000m ...I can't imagine ....

Not to impune the Army AmmoSgt. but the Marine Corps regularly qualifies (yearly for every Marine) at the 500yd line with the M16A2 firing at man sized targets from the prone position. Personally, that was my "money" line as I always attained a perfect score at the 500. The 800yd setting on the M16A2 is for "area" targets such as troop concentrations or vehicles. The actual maximum range for the M16A2 is 3534 yards. Although I really seriously doubt you're going to do much out that far.

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USMCGrunt Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll! -Rudyard Kipling-

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- 3/20/2001 1:05:00 PM

Latka

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Grunt... Now I'm confused :) It was recent, like '92-93. It wasn't an accurized M1A, just the standard. Then again, it could have been an M14. I can't recall the difference between the two other than one had the capability to go full auto. Regarding the range - yup... even with my glasses I'd have to remember which target # I was and then count down. Thankfully the target numbers were alternating black and white - I'd go down till I found my target, divide the blur in half, and shoot. I never really got anywhere, but I'd manage to hit the target :) Andy

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- 3/20/2001 4:52:00 PM

USMCGrunt

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quote:

Originally posted by Latka: Grunt... Now I'm confused :) It was recent, like '92-93. It wasn't an accurized M1A, just the standard. Then again, it could have been an M14. I can't recall the difference between the two other than one had the capability to go full auto. Andy

Latka, Just for reference, the M1A is the semiauto only version of the M14. This is the model sold by Springfield Armory for civilian use. It's an excellent rifle (I have one of my own) and very accurate as-is. The Marine Corps adds the following modifications for Rifle Team use. Glass bedded fiberglass stock, match trigger, and match sights. The main differences between the M1 and M14 was the addition of a removable 20rnd magazine on the M14, a muzzle brake/flash hider on the barrel, and some minor internal changes.

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USMCGrunt Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll! -Rudyard Kipling-

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- 3/20/2001 4:56:00 PM

Latka

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I remember the Warrant Officer at the range (also the OIC of the shooting team) talking about either an M1D or M14D...something like that. Jeez, now my memory goes foggy - something about if you won a specific number of medals (DCM medals?) in shooting matches you'd get awarded an M1, and some guys were lucky enough to get the model with the adjustable cheekpiece, etc, etc, etc. Quite an impressive weapon, indeed. The only thing I wasn't too fond of was the thin metal buttplate and the fact that if I fired it with my glasses on in the offhand position I'd have to fire the weapon, and then reach up with my forward hand to catch my glasses. :) Eventually I got smart and bought a little strap for 'em. Hahaha...only got "M1 Thumb" once. Man...that HURTS to have the bolt slam home on it! -Andy

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- 3/21/2001 1:20:00 AM

edppcli

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Just FYI The Canadian Infantry uses a heavy barrelled, full auto only version of the M16. Standard max range for qualification is man sized targets at 600m. Light infantry units use iron sights, while motorized infantry and other combat units use a 1.5x scope (good in low light, due to tritium inserts-but deadly to your own fireteam doing advace to contacts because of the limited field of view). 2 SAWs (FN Minimi) cover ranges out to 1000m. Beyond that you have to go to the platoon weapons det for MAG, light mortar, .50cal, and AT rockets. Snipers use 7.62mm Parker-Hale and are expected to qualify at 1200m but they do have access to a spotting scope.

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- 3/21/2001 1:20:00 AM

edppcli

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- 3/21/2001 5:42:00 AM

john g

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quote:

Originally posted by troopie: Are the weapon ranges in SPWAW meant to be maximum range or effective range? I ask because the Mauser and Enfield rifles have max ranges of 1800 metres, that's about 36 hexes. But of course, you seldom see a target at that range and very, very few people can hit anything at that range. troopie

An Enfield with volley sights goes out further than that. Mine is a Australian model built in 1940 and the sights go out to 2000 yds. However you can't really shoot at anything at that range. You are just shooting at an area. Check out the movie "The Lighthorsemen" to see how you can screw up with volley sights. Effective range for rifles is now accepted as 600 yds or less (12 hexes). That is why several armies went to small caliber munitions fired out of short barreled assault weapons. A .22 caliber long rifle round box has the warning that it has an extreme range of 1.25 miles, but with bullet drop, you might not ever get the round to go that far unless you are firing down hill from the side of mountain. Beyond 1000 yds on my Enfield I can't use the sight firing from my shoulder. The butt of the stock drops down into your armpit when extreme ranges are set, and I wouldn't like to try firing it that way. thanks, John.

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- 3/21/2001 6:13:00 AM

Latka

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Wow... 2000yards? Hey, isn't that why they have artillery? :)

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- 3/21/2001 8:12:00 AM

troopie

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I've never tried putting my Mauser 98 up all the way. I don't have access to an area that is safe to shoot larger than one klick. After that, it goes into a hill. I've hit targets on semi auto at 650 metres with an R-1, also called an FN-FAL but the R-1 really isn't made for long range sniping. (It's a bugger to control on full auto, so I'm not really sure what it was made for. But it was my service rifle.) troopie

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- 3/23/2001 11:31:00 AM

troopie

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quote:

Originally posted by Kluckenbill: I have a sizeable collection of old military rifles and I have always been amused at the incredible long range sights on the WW1 and (some) WW2 era guns. If you max out the rear sight on some of the old Mausers, Mannlichers, Mosin's etc, its like shooting a howitzer. I've always assumed that these sights were holdovers from the days of massed infantry maneuvering and that it was deemed practical to shoot at large masses of men at great (1500 meter plus) ranges in 1914. I can't imagine hitting a running or hiding infantryman at anything much above 200 meters, but then, I'm not much of a rifle shot.

What weapons do you have? Are they in firing condition? Have you got the 7mm Mle 96 Mauser, (the Boer War Mauser)? I've seen them in museums and collections, but never fired one. I'm told they're a sweet handling weapon. troopie

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- 3/23/2001 11:58:00 AM

Pack Rat

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Way back when I was growing up there was a monthly gun magazine where the center always had a two page ad for WW2 arms. You name it they had it, seems strange now to think they are on the rare side. I traded a friend a toy replica I had for a .303 Enfield. My parents weren't too happy with me, but did let me keep it after talking to his folks to make sure they weren't upset. He didn't want it as guns in my area were and are common and the ammo expensive for him. The first time I fired it I tied it to a cement structure and put a string around the trigger :), it didn't blow up and I still have it.

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- 3/23/2001 12:17:00 PM

Kluckenbill

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quote:

Originally posted by troopie: What weapons do you have? Are they in firing condition? Have you got the 7mm Mle 96 Mauser, (the Boer War Mauser)? I've seen them in museums and collections, but never fired one. I'm told they're a sweet handling weapon. troopie

I have about 30 old military rifles. I started collecting back when I was a kid in the late '60s, some for less than $20. I had the idea that since Civil War era guns were already expensive by then, that eventually the WW1 era stuff would be valuable too. It didn't really work out that way, since you cabn still buy a lot of these guns for about $150 or so, but I enjoy them anyway. I've shot almost all of them a few times although its hard to get ammo for some, like the Austrian Mannlicher and the old style (round point) 8mm German model 88. I have 2 7mm Mausers, a long rifle which I think is from the Spanish American War and a carbine from the Spanish Civil War. They are both excellent guns. The Spanish Mausers differ from the German ones in that they cock on the closing of the bold instead of when you first turn the bolt. The cartridge seems much like any other high powered rifle cartridge of the era in terms of accuracy and power. The worst-shooting gun I have is a Lee Enfield Jungle Carbine (Number 5 Mark 1) that has been 'sporterized' and weighs about 5 1/2 pounds. That is positively the hardest kicking gun I have ever fired.

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