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GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 12:17:33 PM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		EDIT: The map has now been posted here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3656168

******************************************************

I personally prefer to play on 'real world' maps rather than random ones, and to that end I have been putting together the data needed to create a galaxy map corresponding to our own Milky Way galaxy. It would probably be more accurate to say that this is a map 'inspired' by the real world, because a good part of it is inevitably speculative.

The tldr for this post is this: I have got to a point where I could go in a number of different directions and I’d like to hear the views of people who would like to play this map (if there are any).

So, if you’re interested in this project, read on! (Believe me, you’ll need to be interested, to plough through all this stuff!)

And if you’re not interested? Just move your hands away from the keyboard and back away from the post ;-) Not necessarily in that order.

If no one is interested, then I shall just continue doing my own thing with it.

What’s been done so far?

I have gathered data in respect of all the stars in my ‘Real Star Names’ file (see http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3322531 for the file).

In particular I have gathered the following data: name; size; distance from Sol; spectral class; and direction from Sol.

I have mapped the position of all these stars onto the galactic coordinate system, and have edited 200-300 of them into a DW:U map. The total space will be 15x15 with about 1400 stars, so I still have some way to go. However, the last few hundred systems will be somewhat easier, as they won’t be custom made.

What compromises have been made?

1. As you know, DW is represented in 2D not 3D. I have made the decision that all stars should be positioned at the correct distance from Sol (subject to certain compromises mentioned below), and in the correct direction when mapped on the galactic plane. This inevitably means that some stars will come out much closer in the map than they do in real life, although I have enough stars that I can leave out some, to avoid the worst examples of this problem. So I’ll try not to place two stars adjacent to one another, if they’re actually 10,000 light years apart!

2. The DW:U star types are fairly limited, as there are no yellow, white, orange or blue super giants, and no blue main sequence stars. I have tried to match the spectral class to the DW:U star types as closely as I can. Where there’s a choice, I have gone for getting the colour right, so a yellow giant will be represented in DW:U as a yellow main sequence star, rather than a red giant.

3. Scale is a common problem in DW:U. Most star sizes are limited to a maximum size of 193.0k, while planets can go up to 90.0k, which doesn’t give much scope for star sizes. I have tried to get star sizes relatively correct, but it is not terribly realistic, and there are many stars which are simply stuck with the maximum size.

4. To quote Douglas Adams, “Space is big.” So is the galaxy. On a 15x15 grid, each grid represents a space of about 8000x8000 light years. That means the closest you can place any two stars is about 400 light years apart. It follows that most of the stars in the galaxy won’t be ones you have ever heard of. For example, in my list of real star names, 67% are within 400 light years of Sol and 98% are within 8000 light years. That’s not how I want to play. I want a map in which you can play humans starting at Sol and have a real sense of exploring the surrounding space, then move on to more distant regions and finally the whole galaxy. Therefore I have scaled the galaxy so that distances are not represented linearly. I have had a number of attempts at this, and my latest attempt gives the best feel. It involves these features:
(i) Stars within 100 light years from Sol are arranged within a one sector radius of Sol.
(ii) Stars from 100 to 2500 light years from Sol are arranged within an annulus one to two sectors from Sol.
(iii) Stars over 2500 light years are arranged more than two sectors from Sol.
I’ve found this gives a good playing area for the closer stars while still maintaining the enormous feel of the galaxy as a whole.

What Still Needs to be done?

I still have to add a considerable number of stars to the galaxy and also to add planets. Many of the systems will have personalised planet systems, while for other stars (generally ones that are further away from Sol) I will let the game randomly determine the planetary system in the game editor.

It will be clear from the foregoing that most of the stars over 2,500 light years from Sol do not have a name (or if they do have a name it's something boring like ‘HD 49601’). So I have to decide what to call the remaining stars. This is where I’m particularly open to your views. In particular:

1. Do you have any thoughts on what names I should assign to stars which are distant from Sol (many of which won’t already have a name)?

2. Star Trek Lore can provide some names for perhaps 100-200 star on the other side of the galaxy. Should I do this?

3. Continuing with the Star Trek theme, should I plug closer Star Trek systems into the map? For example, systems like Romulus, Kronos and Cardassia could all be added – they would be positioned roughly 1 sector from Sol.

Congratulations to anyone who has made it this far. Feedback would be welcome.

Finally here are some pics of what I have done so far. The first one is shows the sector containing Sol.

Osito

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< Message edited by Osito -- 7/14/2014 8:12:22 PM >
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RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 12:18:18 PM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		Damn, I meant to embed that pic. Here is is again:




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RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 12:20:29 PM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		Here's one showing the galaxy at maximum zoom. Sol is highlighted, while the black hole in the centre of the sector near the top (in column H) is Sagittarius A*.

Note that the black holes at the centre of most of the sectors are just there to help with star positioning. They will be deleted.




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RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 12:21:58 PM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		And here's our Solar System. Pluto's a planet. Sorry. (If it helps, Eris is a planet, too).




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Post #: 4
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 12:25:54 PM   
joeyeti


Posts: 329
Joined: 2/28/2012
Status: offline 		Nice project... will follow :)

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Joe

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Post #: 5
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 12:27:28 PM   
Unforeseen


Posts: 608
Joined: 3/26/2013
From: United States of Disease
Status: offline 		If i could remember the formula that i made to convert ALL planets and ALL stars in DW to exact and very very realistic sizes i would give it to you but it would require you to manually convert every planet in the game to maintain balance. I've seen a few formula's mentioned on the forums here, but none of them are as precise. If you ever decide your interested in doing this, i'll go back into the editor and refigure it for you. I wanted to do something like this myself but i don't have the time. Albeit i intended to do at least 2,OOO stars.

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RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 12:30:34 PM   
Solarius Scorch


Posts: 180
Joined: 5/25/2013
From: Cracow, Poland
Status: offline 		This is an absolutely brilliant project, and its scale is staggering too.

I'm, not sure about Star Trek names, they somewhat conflict with the main idea of the mod - to make the map feel more "hard-SF". In a Star Trek mod, sure, that's natural, but otherwise it would feel weird to see a system name Cardassia which has nothing to do with Cardassians.
On the other hand, I would rather see real names even for really distant worlds (*ba-dum-tss*). After al, those systems are as inhabited and known as those near Sol, so why wouldn't they have names? To reduce them to mere numbers would be really heliocentric.

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RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 2:04:21 PM   
Dd_01


Posts: 69
Joined: 12/19/2012
From: Russia
Status: offline 		I think you just can name them with random fictional names (as in your mod).

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Post #: 8
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 4:51:31 PM   
dimascyriaco

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 6/11/2014
Status: offline 		Man, this is amazing! Will use it for sure! Thanks!

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Post #: 9
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 6:09:01 PM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2529
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
Status: offline 		Excellent work Osito! I respect your time and commitment that you'll expend in this project!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dd_01
I think you just can name them with random fictional names (as in your mod).


quote:

ORIGINAL: Solarius Scorch
This is an absolutely brilliant project, and its scale is staggering too.

I'm, not sure about Star Trek names, they somewhat conflict with the main idea of the mod - to make the map feel more "hard-SF". In a Star Trek mod, sure, that's natural, but otherwise it would feel weird to see a system name Cardassia which has nothing to do with Cardassians.
On the other hand, I would rather see real names even for really distant worlds (*ba-dum-tss*). After al, those systems are as inhabited and known as those near Sol, so why wouldn't they have names? To reduce them to mere numbers would be really heliocentric.


I tend to agree with Dd_01 and Solarius Scorch above. Reason being that, if you complete the entire map
let's say 'neuter', then any of us modders (with your permission) could easily incorporate it in our
own mods using the game editor. I for instance would incorporate the Star Trek quadrant map systems and
place them where they actually need to be. Same for Star Wars, X-Series, Mass Effect, Eve modders, etc.

So that's my opinion. In closing, as long as Elliot doesn't change things in the Ancient Galaxy theme,
it could be also used in a customized game as well. Good luck, and thanks for your commitment to the game!


< Message edited by ehsumrell1 -- 6/11/2014 7:11:58 PM >

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RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 7:43:10 PM   
Premislaus

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 6/11/2014
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I read this forum for a long time, but now I decided to register. You are my hero! In the DW I always lacked a true map of the galaxy.

Many times I wanted to do the same, but the placement of each star on the map is monotonous. I was wondering whether, it is possible to parse some database for the game?

donjon.bin.sh/scifi/name/#space - star names generator.
donjon.bin.sh/scifi/system/ - star systems generator, effect = donjon.bin.sh/scifi/system/index.cgi
asterank.com/ - most valuable asteroids in Sol ;-).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_planets

Your map looks great! Please continue. You already have a fan ;-).

I think in Alpha Centauri system should be a planet named Chiron (Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri).

< Message edited by Premislaus -- 6/11/2014 8:51:28 PM >

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RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 8:17:00 PM   
Hannable

 

Posts: 93
Joined: 11/4/2013
Status: offline 		I thought about doing something similar ... but a little bit different. I was going to design a "galaxy" that was essentially a star map of the sky as seen from Sol. Thus you would be touring and exploring and conquering in a sky that is hauntingly familiar. Ever want to see what Betelgeuse looks like close up? Just find Orion on the map and fly your ship to the appropriate star. It would not be hyper accurate in terms of actual distances. The stars would be placed according to how they look from earth. At least as much of the sky that I can fit - flat maps can be problematic when dealing with spherical space.

Your particular map will also be a lot of fun to play on. Just be careful that you don't end up with a map where all of the stars are sort of "orbiting" Sol - because it kind of looks like that so far (Sol being the center of the universe, so to speak).

As for the unnamed stars, I would just use the fictional names contained in other star name mods. Since the galaxy IS inhabited, other creatures would have names for their stars, too, and the "unfamiliar" or fictional names could be names other races gave to those stars.

< Message edited by Hannable -- 6/11/2014 9:17:50 PM >

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RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 8:23:19 PM   
necaradan666

 

Posts: 256
Joined: 5/28/2012
Status: offline 		Have you had a look at the map from antiscamps human revolution mod, not sure how accurate it is but I remember seeing the stars closest to earth looking more or less right. Don't remember how they were named as you get further out.

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Post #: 13
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 10:40:57 PM   
FingNewGuy


Posts: 183
Joined: 4/11/2014
From: Boulder, CO
Status: offline 		HOLY CRAP!!!


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Post #: 14
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/11/2014 10:48:51 PM   
Solarius Scorch


Posts: 180
Joined: 5/25/2013
From: Cracow, Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Premislaus
I think in Alpha Centauri system should be a planet named Chiron (Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri).


Yes, please please please! :)

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Post #: 15
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/12/2014 12:14:59 AM   
Hannable

 

Posts: 93
Joined: 11/4/2013
Status: offline 		Holy crap, look at all of those black holes less than 20 LY from earth. Our home might not be such a safe place with all of those roving monsters about.

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"Only one human captain has survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else." - Delenn of Minbar

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Post #: 16
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/12/2014 8:26:43 AM   
feygan

 

Posts: 323
Joined: 3/31/2010
Status: offline 		Excellent project and looking forward to how this pans out. Combine it with something that overhauls hyperdrives speeds somewhat and we will get to find out just how big space really is.

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Post #: 17
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/12/2014 9:58:32 AM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		Thank you to everyone for your replies, which have been very helpful.

I agree with the general thrust of the posts which suggest that I should steer clear of any specific fictional themes (such as Star Trek) in the initial version of the map. It was very tempting to use some Star Trek star names in far off parts of the galaxy, but I can see this would interfere with any mods that others might want to make.

However, so far as possible I will make the planetary systems match those known in Star Trek. For example, 40 Eridani A is the star system in which Vulcan is located (well, before someone blew it up - hope that's not a spoiler for anyone!). I will try to make sure the planets in 40 Eridani A match the ones in Star Trek, but I will not use the Star Trek names for the planets.

I would like to see a Star trek version of this map, and may well do one after I have a satisfactory version of the base map - unless someone else undertakes to complete that project.

All stars within 2500 light years of Sol will be known star systems (with one possible exception). Some stars beyond 2500 light years will be known, but the rest will have fictional names.

So far as planets are concerned, I will make use of known data about planets, but I am not going to be too rigid about this. The problem here is that there are very few systems with more than two or three confirmed planets, and many of those systems have uninspiring names, like HD10180, which apparently has 7 planets. So I think the game will play better if I don't stick rigidly to our present knowledge of extrasolar planets. All planetary systems within 2500 light years will have to be individually designed.

I shall include the ancient homeworld systems of all the vanilla DW:U races, and Haree78 has kindly given his permission to include the ancient homeworld systems of his extended races. In addition, since I'm in need of a large number of star system names, I shall name a star system after everyone who has replied to this post (unless you ask me not to) Edit: actually, maybe not you, FingNewGuy ;-). If there are any star or planet names you would particularly like to see, please let me know.

I have just finished mapping out the position of the spiral arms of the galaxy, and should shortly be able to start adding the stars to create the structure. It is quite slow going and I don't know when I will be in a position to make an initial release, but I certainly hope I can do it within a week or two.

Finally, I just want to address some specific comments:

@Unforeseen, I'd certainly like to see your formula, if you find it, but I suspect I'm probably too far down the line to make use of it.

@Solarius Scorch, yes, I agree about avoiding the use of 'number' designations for the stars, but the names will inevitably be somewhat heliocentric.

@Premislaus, thanks for the links, and I will definitely put Chiron in Alpha Centauri - thanks for the idea.

@Hannable, I take your point, and, hopefully, the finished version will not have the effect of looking like all the stars are orbiting Sol. In the finished product it should look like Sol is positioned between two spiral arms, with the densest star area being in the centre. So, it should look like everything is orbiting the galactic centre (which it is, of course). Incidentally, most of those black holes will be deleted. I placed a black hole at the centre of many sectors in order that I could position the map under a transparent grid that I have stuck to my monitor. This purpose of this is to get the stars at the correct coordinates. The closest real black hole that I have in my database is V616 Monocerotis at about 3000 LY. If anyone is aware of a closer one, let me know (incidentally, V4641 Sagittarii is now thought to be much further away than originally predicted).

@necaradan666, I have looked at Antiscamp's mod, but I think he is trying to achieve something different.

@Feygan, I think this mod will probably work best with much slower hyperdrives (at least at the start of the game). A speed 12000 Gerax can cross 15 sectors in 4 years of game time. I like the idea of slowing that down by a factor of 10, but that's something for later. Initially, I'll just get the map out, and people can then do what they want with it.

Osito





< Message edited by Osito -- 6/12/2014 11:15:23 AM >

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RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/12/2014 4:53:37 PM   
FingNewGuy


Posts: 183
Joined: 4/11/2014
From: Boulder, CO
Status: offline
quote:

Edit: actually, maybe not you, FingNewGuy ;-).



LOL! Just kidding- understood, of course. May I humbly request Vrilja as a star name instead?


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Post #: 19
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/12/2014 5:57:28 PM   
mensrea


Posts: 233
Joined: 5/23/2014
From: Pittsburgh
Status: offline 		Wow, this is incredible. I briefly considered doing it myself, but the scope of it was discouraging. And here you are with so much stuff already done. Awesome stuff man. Would you be opposed to people using this map for mods, given they acknowledge your effort and provide a link to this thread?

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Post #: 20
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/12/2014 6:50:14 PM   
Hannable

 

Posts: 93
Joined: 11/4/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Osito
I would like to see a Star trek version of this map, and may well do one after I have a satisfactory version of the base map - unless someone else undertakes to complete that project.


Hey Osito, check this map out. I thought you might want to tweak your map to a Star Trek map for others to use in a ST mod ... since ST does, in fact, take place in our universe and stars have the same names as a real map (aside from some of the fictional systems).

This map also has a tool that you can measure the exact distance in light years between any two systems you want.

Here's the map:

Stellar Cartography

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RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/12/2014 7:35:01 PM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		@FingNewGuy: yep, Vrilja is in :-)

@mensrea: I would certainly approve the use of the map by others in mods. Or they can take the base mod and improve it. I would welcome contributions like that.

@Hannable: thanks, I have seen that site. I have some ST resources, including 'Star Trek Star Charts' by Geoffrey Mandel and 'Star Trek Stellar Cartography: the Starfleet Reference Library', by Larry Nemecek.

I did all my work independently of these reference works, and I have been impressed with how accurately they have previously mapped out the correct positions of the stars. They clearly took the trouble to look at the distance from Sol and the direction. I haven't followed their approach precisely, as I think they have projected each star directly onto the galactic plane, so the apparent 2D distance from Sol is incorrect, whereas I have adjusted to get the distance from Sol right.

Anyway, I have now created a preliminary 'full galaxy'. This is really a precursor of the final product, just to get an initial view of what it will look like. I shall post some screenshots tomorrow, and hope to get some feedback from you guys.

Osito


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Post #: 22
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/13/2014 9:09:24 AM   
feygan

 

Posts: 323
Joined: 3/31/2010
Status: offline 		I fully agree this should be a standalone thing and you do not need to worry about things like modding hyperdrives etc. What I think is amazing about this project is how wonderful a reference tool it will make for those folks who do end up modding ship speed etc. It is going to give a very clear idea of the distances between stars in a way we can all comprehend (let's face it, no one really grasps just how far a light year is when they try to picture one).

Modders are now going to be able to simply say "right one sector = x light years, I want a hyperdrive that travels x times the speed of light. Thus I need hyperdrive speed to be x so it takes 6 months to reach x distance". It is going to do wonders for proper immersion, and for the strategy aspect of things.

(in reply to Osito)
Post #: 23
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project (New Pics) - 6/13/2014 10:59:44 AM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		There is a problem with getting the speed right, Feygan, in that I don't think you can balance interplanetary speed with interstellar speed. See my post here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3615456&mpage=1&key=scale%2Cgalaxy�

However, I agree you can certainly fix the interstellar speed. On a Milky Way galaxy map, the 12000 speed Gerax would travel at roughly 25000 times the speed of light.

Below I have posted some pics of what the complete galaxy might look like with my map. This is just a preliminary build, and at this stage I can very easily change it. Therefore, I am really looking for opinions and criticisms of the galaxy. Any suggestions for improvement are welcome.

Note that the galaxy approximates to the commonly accepted structure. As with previous pics, the black holes are there purely for guidance and will be deleted. I have marked the traditional names of the galactic spiral arms (with alternative names in brackets). The arms are surprisingly thin, perhaps only a few stars wide. This is probably inevitable as I'm trying to represent a galaxy of 100,000,000,000 stars with about 1400 stars. Sol is located in the Orion Arm (which is also known as the Local Arm - I forgot to mark that in the pictures). I think I need to make the Saturn-Centaurus Arm and the Perseus Arm more prominent relative to the others.

I intend that the final galaxy will have around 1400 stars. DW:U would actually let me add considerably more stars, but I'm wary about doing this, as it may cause slow downs in playing the game. Elliot presumably had a good reason for limiting the maximum number of stars in a game-created galaxy to 1400. I am contemplating adding a few extra empty star systems purely to add colour to the game. I have a feeling that adding empty star systems would not slow the game down significantly, as there would not be anything that could be done with these systems (other than exploration). It's probably the number of colonisable and mineable objects that matters. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Osito

< Message edited by Osito -- 6/13/2014 12:11:36 PM >

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Post #: 24
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/13/2014 11:00:48 AM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		The dark side of the galaxy.




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RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/13/2014 11:01:13 AM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		Galactic Core




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Post #: 26
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/13/2014 11:01:36 AM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		You are here:




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Post #: 27
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/13/2014 11:08:11 AM   
Dd_01


Posts: 69
Joined: 12/19/2012
From: Russia
Status: offline 		Wow. That's incredible amount of work, and it's totally amazing.

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Post #: 28
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/13/2014 11:11:31 AM   
fenrislokison

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/2/2014
Status: offline 		hello

Incredible work there!

About empty stars systems, they usually have my preference for establishing monitoring stations, since useless systems are unlikely to be visited by pirates or enemy empires and with a stealth system, it makes these monitoring stations undetectable.

I know it's a very little use for empty systems but since you asked... :)

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Post #: 29
RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project - 6/13/2014 12:22:06 PM   
Premislaus

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 6/11/2014
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Very nice. Unfortunately limit of 1,400 stars makes it look like baldness.

Around the solar system is more stars, so humanity will have the advantage.

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