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Refund - 6/10/2014 1:52:03 AM   
HailRider

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/11/2014
Status: offline 		I am sorry to say that I am fully frustrated with CMANO. I have asked for a refund, as suggested by one of the developers. I have received the refund. As such, I have deleted the game from my hard drive, and will no longer be participating on this forum. I thought I would give you a few parting remarks that may help for future development.

1) The hotkeys are really important. I have now used Autohotkey, a free and easy to use program, to make my own hotkeys using the menu items in CMANO. I have found this greatly improved playability. The only problem is that when the menus change, I would have had to change the Autohotkey file as well. A full complement of hotkeys, and maybe even a way to change them, would greatly improve playability.

2) The game is way more complicated than any of you non-noobs remember it being. WAY MORE!! That is why some sort of hints/suggestions file would be great. I have received such information in the forum at times, to great success. Ballogan has put in a great deal of time into making his videos, but you cannot search through them to find exactly what you are looking for in a timely fashion. Thanks Ballogan, you obviously love this game, and are a great resource. But I think that having a set of hints would be even better.

3) I understand that this is a complex game, and there is a lot to learn. When people on the forum chastise you for asking questions, and say things like "I know the answer but I won't tell you", it makes a noob feel like giving up. The forum needs to be a free and open place. What is the matter with answering dumb questions on the forum. That way, when another noob searches for the same question (which may not in fact be that dumb for the uninitiated), they can actually find an answer easily. People should welcome any question they can answer. Answer the question constructively and feel good about yourself.

4) There are a lot of bugs in this game. I have had the game crash almost every time I have played it. It is very hard to search, and search, and search for the answer, not asking on the forum for fear of some nasty person belittling you for asking something, only to find out that the problem is not with your knowledge base, but with a bug in the program. There are very serious problems in CMANO with documentation, expectations, and bugs under the hood. These three do not mix well at all.

In the end, I love the idea. I love the look (except the windows look, that is. I am a mac person after all) of the main map and log. I love the detail. I love the possibilities. I really want to love playing this game, but I cannot.

I will try again in 2-3 years and see if it has improved to the point where I can repurchase it. I really want to.

Thank you for reading. I do not mean any disrespect or harm. I am truly trying to be constructive.


Best wishes and godspeed,

Hailrider

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 6/14/2014 1:14:51 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 2:07:11 AM   
PaulWRoberts

 

Posts: 897
Joined: 4/22/2001
Status: offline 		I understand being frustrated about a complex game, especially if it's giving you what seems to be unusual technical trouble.

Since you sound like you'd prefer to enjoy the game rather than trash it, I suggest watching all the videos you can. Baloogan's series are great not only for seeing what CMANO can do but also for a general education in modern naval operations.

(in reply to HailRider)
Post #: 2
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 2:25:00 AM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Bummer. Well we hope you'll be back in a few years. Thanks for your input and sorry your experience wasn't good. This is not definitely not the norm.

Mike




< Message edited by mikmyk -- 6/10/2014 3:29:25 AM >

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(in reply to PaulWRoberts)
Post #: 3
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 6:02:01 AM   
RoryAndersonCDT

 

Posts: 1830
Joined: 6/16/2009
Status: offline 		Cheers Hailrider,

I wish there was more I could do to help new players in learning the art of Command.

quote:

It is very hard to search, and search, and search for the answer, not asking on the forum for fear of some nasty person belittling you for asking something, only to find out that the problem is not with your knowledge base, but with a bug in the program.


My apologies for that; its one of the main reasons why I recommended the chat room over and over
Its easier to learn in a positive environment. If you yell at a student who raises his hand as he has a question the student will not raise his hand in the future.

I think you 100% have the right attitude; and the willingness to use a game like command as a learning experience.

Godspeed good sir!

Baloogan

_____________________________

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Technical Lead

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 4
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 10:03:54 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		No one got chastised for asking questions. They got pushed back on when they didn't take advice and didn't actually use the documentation that was suggested. It was pointed out several times where they could find the answers to their questions. Saying that people get chastised for asking questions is a little rewriting history.

(in reply to RoryAndersonCDT)
Post #: 5
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 10:11:19 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		The thing I don't understand is that I am no naval warfare savant. I went 4-5 years without playing Harpoon. I read a little about WW1 naval warfare and most of the early Clancy and Bond books. Yet I don't seem to have the learning issues that several other people have. I start up Command; I pick a mid to small scenario; I play it; I'm done. I'll come across something I don't understand and I go to wikiedia, the manual, or baloogan's site and research it.

I really don't get how hard that is. If something happens that doesn't match my reality, I generally write it off as the devs know more than I do. I really don't understand the people on bug hunts or being obsessed with every single item of the 100,000 items not working the way I would expect them to.

I mean what game at=re you going to play even close to this one...and don't say Harpoon. Harpoon has a hell of a lot more issues than Command and its been worked on for a decade at least.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 6
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 10:30:23 AM   
kimaera026

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 6/2/2014
Status: offline 		there are mainstream games out right now that have same amount (if not more) of bugs that i've seen so far in Command.
Yet, just like most of those, we enjoy the contents of this one so much that we accept its bugs. Personally, I think CMANO has got much more potential than its flaws.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 7
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 11:33:29 AM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		The OP posted and left with a good deal of class, so I am not inclined to comment further on him.

However, please note, he has been on the forums exactly one month. You can call that a fair amount of time to try something out; it obviously wasn't for him, at least not now. That will be the nature of things, and again, good on him.

We live in a time where a whole generation of gamers has been raised on computer orcs, elves and goblins casting magic spells -- it really isn't a wonder that a simulation that doesn't provide immediate superficial gratification would not appeal to some people. Gamers coming from WoW or something similar are bound to hit a wall of disbelief and culture shock if they try CMANO. Some of these folks will get won over, converted, and never want to go back. But we need to have a sober understanding that many are just going to "get bored" and leave -- I think that's just the way things are.

Alternatively, to keep up the interest of some, the developers could program in "Health Packs" so our ships could "heal," or maybe include some large breasted animated bimbo with fluffy hair in the help file to assist the hormone challenged teen facing his first wave of inbound anti-ship missiles. I think we should call her Monica. We need some audio files -- "Really? Dude, there isn't a magic spell available for that, you're totally hosed!"

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to kimaera026)
Post #: 8
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 12:22:56 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I still don't understand the public statements about refunds. If a game is not for you, just email the developer and publisher and get your refund. Tell them your reasons, they will absorb the info and you can move on. The big public statements seem a little immature.

I bought WITP (basically twice). Never really played it to its full potential. I probably could have gotten a refund, but I just moved on. No public statements about how complicated it was. It was pretty clear it was complicated. Live and Learn. btw, WITP cost about the same as Command and still don't think I wasted my money.

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 9
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 2:08:50 PM   
Moltke71


Posts: 1253
Joined: 9/23/2000
Status: offline 		I'll weigh in here. I played CMANO over a month before reviewing it; the OP just played a month. Gamers must get over their need for instant gratification just as some reviewers should take more time before writing.

CMANO is a fine game and has tremendous support.

_____________________________

Jim Cobb

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 10
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 3:14:38 PM   
DannyJim_slith

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 1/1/2014
Status: offline 		Guys - he's gone. You're arguing in an empty room.

(in reply to Moltke71)
Post #: 11
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 3:22:49 PM   
AlmightyTallest

 

Posts: 279
Joined: 2/25/2014
Status: offline 		nevermind.

< Message edited by AlmightyTallest -- 6/10/2014 4:23:55 PM >

(in reply to Moltke71)
Post #: 12
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 4:15:57 PM   
Michael7619


Posts: 54
Joined: 5/16/2014
From: Europe
Status: offline 		I think CMANO is worth every euro i spent on it. It take's time and effort to understand the game. I have
played for months but there is still much to learn. It might be quite a challence to players who don't have experience
from games like harpoon or so. But it's worth it. Devs are making new builds and improvments so fast that i have not
seen that in any game i have played before.

What comes to Hailrider; I do not see any reason why anyone should kick a man who is already down. People are different
with different experiences from games. I think it would benefit the forum and the game that people would try to be as poliet
as they can. You do not want tho alienate new players. More players, more money, better game.
Thats my opinion, but there's a saying that opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

(in reply to AlmightyTallest)
Post #: 13
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 5:03:56 PM   
SSN754planker


Posts: 448
Joined: 10/2/2013
Status: offline 		Can we stop beatin this dead horse?

With CMANO, most you win, a few we lose. He did leave an open door to come back...So might be a win later down the line.

_____________________________

MY BOOK LIST
ST1/SS SSN 754

(in reply to Michael7619)
Post #: 14
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 5:35:01 PM   
chemkid

 

Posts: 1238
Joined: 12/15/2012
Status: offline 		@hailrider - i read your posts and all. hope to see you on this forum again someday!

cheers!
chem!

(in reply to HailRider)
Post #: 15
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 6:18:05 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I am not kicking anyone when they are down. But you want to start a whole thread on getting a refund, I assume you want to get people's feedback/opinion/attention on that choice. Why else would you do it that way. A classy act and one I respect with no qualifications is going to the developers and asking for a refund...no fuss, no muss. But when you feel the need to bare it publicly, you will get feedback and questions.

I got a refund on an HPS game a few years ago and just quietly walked away. I felt no need to publicly espouse on it. The game didn't function for anyone using it, it was not what I expected, HPS offered a refund and I was done with it.

(in reply to chemkid)
Post #: 16
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 7:16:22 PM   
dox44

 

Posts: 668
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: the woodlands, texas
Status: offline 		i agree it can be a very frustrating experience. i've been playing a little over a
month with minor successes here and there. i wish i had contacted you before you
refunded.

when i get frustrated, i walk away from CMANO and don't play again for several days
--seems to help.

i agree baloogan's site is great. i haven't seen a lot of CTDs. I play mainly the small scenarios--maybe thats why...i'm not sure.

thanks for the post...casebier

(in reply to HailRider)
Post #: 17
RE: Refund - 6/10/2014 7:55:37 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: casebier

i agree it can be a very frustrating experience. i've been playing a little over a
month with minor successes here and there. i wish i had contacted you before you
refunded.

when i get frustrated, i walk away from CMANO and don't play again for several days
--seems to help.



Hello,

Can you describe your pain points? We are constantly trying to remove obstacles to enjoying the game but first we must be made aware of them. The more details the better.

Thanks!

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(in reply to dox44)
Post #: 18
RE: Refund - 6/11/2014 9:08:07 PM   
Silverhawk85

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 6/11/2014
Status: offline 		Hi I'm new here. I played the game only for a few hours and my pain points already start with the first tutorial scenario.

At some points the tutorial textes seem to belong to a totally different scenario. For example when you are advised to select the airfield and click the 72/72 button. First of all there are two airfields which belong to the blue team. One has no such button and the second has a "42/72" button. Was not sure if this was ment.

Then there were no boogies there as described in the text. I think they went out for lunch.

Then there are some unprecise advices. For example I was adviced to change some EMCON settings and then uncheck the 1/3 rule box. The text didn't say where to find the 1/3 rule box. While the EMCON window was still open and the text did't say that I can close it, I searched for it in the EMCON window but couldn't find it. It took some time until I found it. I was like searching for easter eggs.

In my opinion the game simply needs proper tutorials with precise descriptions which explain step by step what to do and where to find it. It's a bit annoying to get stuck in the first tutorial which is ment to teach you the essentials of the game because of such things described above and beeing forced to consult the manual or google for it.

But I'm still motivated to learn how to play this game. I see it's potential.

< Message edited by Silverhawk85 -- 6/11/2014 10:45:57 PM >

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 19
RE: Refund - 6/11/2014 9:51:13 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		The 1/3 rule is explained on page 70/71 around mission planning. I looked at the tutorial explanation it specifically walks you through the mission building. It states uncheck 1/3 rule. Its right there in the box they told you to open.

All of your fourth paragraph is part of phase 1 - step 2. If you follow those in order, the 1/3 button is right in front of you.

As to the 42/72 vs 72/72, I think there is randomness there. It said 40/72 when I opened it. You should be able to figure out that one. There is only one Aircraft button in the unit display.

The two Fallon bases are listed as a single unit airfield and a marker. One of them is only a marker for reference. It could probably be explained better, but again, if you read the information available to you in the game you will see that.

The tutorials aren't perfect, but they are better than a lot of games I have played. I think its a little htperbole to claim the tutorial doesn't come close to matching the scenario.

(in reply to Silverhawk85)
Post #: 20
RE: Refund - 6/11/2014 10:01:03 PM   
Silverhawk85

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 6/11/2014
Status: offline 		Yeah maybe I also did something wrong. That's why I had to restart the tutorial a few times.

Maybe a option which highlights the buttons you have to click and disables all other buttons would be useful.

Regarding the 40/72 button, I think the problem is that it was not explained what the numbers stand for. I thought it is just a button named 72/72 like the 1/3 checkbox. I found it out afterwards what these numbers mean.

Just wanted to say that some parts of the tutorial were confusing to me.

< Message edited by Silverhawk85 -- 6/11/2014 11:10:53 PM >

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 21
RE: Refund - 6/12/2014 2:38:11 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Again from the manual...

Aircraft Button: Shows
the number of available
aircraft and total
aircraft in the selected
unit or selected group.
Clicking the button launches the Air Ops dialog which is used to
manage hosted aircraft.

Page 25

I really and truly believe that like with any game, having the manual open and maybe having read it before starting the tutorial helps. I mean, just a basic search turns up the information needed while running the tutorial. I don't think anyone expects you to memorize the manual, but before stating something about the tutorial not matching the scenario, try a simple search. That has been my point all along. Don't make other people do the work for you.

(in reply to Silverhawk85)
Post #: 22
RE: Refund - 6/12/2014 2:56:22 AM   
Casinn

 

Posts: 343
Joined: 7/27/2013
Status: offline 		That tutorial has been changed up some, the marker (actual location) airfield used to be the only one, but was so close that you were immediately in combat with little to no chance to form up planes/read the directions, etc. So per requests from people they added a new one farther back.

I think the 42/72 thing is also from changes to way airfields work. Initially all 72 planes were ready. so it was 72/72.

I'm sure they really appreciate any input from new players on what can improve those tutorials, since those of us playing for months forget what a new player may see as confusing.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 23
RE: Refund - 6/12/2014 2:05:14 PM   
Shemar

 

Posts: 205
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline 		CMANO is (thankfully) not for everyone. It takes significant commitment and interest in the subject to get into this game. Even in my group of tabletop wargamer friends very few would even consider touching it. This is why I like it. Realism over user-friendliness and over-simplification. There are plenty of mainstream games for those that can't handle it.

I also take any criticism regarding crashes from someone trying to play the game on a Mac emulator as highly suspect and unfair. Nobody says the game does not occasionally crash, but my personal experience is of less than a crash every 20-25 hours of play, which is pretty good for a game that is being actively improved constantly (and I would not have it any other way). But I am a computer engineer with a decent gaming rig free of crapware.

I do have one criticism that I agree with. Scenario briefings are often out of sync with that is going on, or woefully incomplete as to victory conditions and specific actions that must be taken to meet them. Often I have found myself with wiped out enemies but still unable to win because I did not move Unit A within area B so that event C can be fired, even though no specific instructions that I needed to do that were given.

(in reply to Casinn)
Post #: 24
RE: Refund - 6/12/2014 3:43:06 PM   
Randomizer


Posts: 1473
Joined: 6/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

I do have one criticism that I agree with. Scenario briefings are often out of sync with that is going on, or woefully incomplete as to victory conditions and specific actions that must be taken to meet them. Often I have found myself with wiped out enemies but still unable to win because I did not move Unit A within area B so that event C can be fired, even though no specific instructions that I needed to do that were given.

This actually lands on the deck of the scenario authors and has nothing to do with CMANO itself. Two points if I may;

1. All scenario authors (and the other CMNAO content providers) are giving their time and efforts for free. Writing and testing an interesting scenario is often time consuming and there will be occasions where the briefings might lag behind changes as the scenario evolves. Scenario writing in my experience is almost never a linear process and it is incredibly easy to have missed something once the author finally thinks "Finished!". In truth I doubt that many scenario authors ever consider their work entirely complete or better than satisfactory. I suspect that if you made the effort to provide the scenario author with feedback regarding any ambiguity or shortcoming in the scenario text or victory conditions they would gratefully respond with an update or a rationale for what was uploaded.

2. There will and indeed should be scenarios where vague briefings and nebulous victory conditions are intentional. The number of military operations where the commander has gone into action knowing beforehand "I need to sink-X, shoot down-Y number of A/C and require ships A, B and C at point-Z for Q-time" is for any practical purposes so close to zero as to be irrelevant. If you get a clear mission statement, consider yourself lucky. CMANO allows scenario authors to throw all sorts of surprises into the mix in a fashion that can mirror the real world quite nicely.

If you have any issues with any community scenario, post or PM the author with your thoughts and suggestions for improvement and I have no doubt you will receive a fair hearing.

< Message edited by Randomizer -- 6/12/2014 4:44:44 PM >

(in reply to Shemar)
Post #: 25
RE: Refund - 6/12/2014 9:02:22 PM   
Shemar

 

Posts: 205
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

quote:

I do have one criticism that I agree with. Scenario briefings are often out of sync with that is going on, or woefully incomplete as to victory conditions and specific actions that must be taken to meet them. Often I have found myself with wiped out enemies but still unable to win because I did not move Unit A within area B so that event C can be fired, even though no specific instructions that I needed to do that were given.

This actually lands on the deck of the scenario authors and has nothing to do with CMANO itself. Two points if I may;

1. All scenario authors (and the other CMNAO content providers) are giving their time and efforts for free. Writing and testing an interesting scenario is often time consuming and there will be occasions where the briefings might lag behind changes as the scenario evolves. Scenario writing in my experience is almost never a linear process and it is incredibly easy to have missed something once the author finally thinks "Finished!". In truth I doubt that many scenario authors ever consider their work entirely complete or better than satisfactory. I suspect that if you made the effort to provide the scenario author with feedback regarding any ambiguity or shortcoming in the scenario text or victory conditions they would gratefully respond with an update or a rationale for what was uploaded.

2. There will and indeed should be scenarios where vague briefings and nebulous victory conditions are intentional. The number of military operations where the commander has gone into action knowing beforehand "I need to sink-X, shoot down-Y number of A/C and require ships A, B and C at point-Z for Q-time" is for any practical purposes so close to zero as to be irrelevant. If you get a clear mission statement, consider yourself lucky. CMANO allows scenario authors to throw all sorts of surprises into the mix in a fashion that can mirror the real world quite nicely.

If you have any issues with any community scenario, post or PM the author with your thoughts and suggestions for improvement and I have no doubt you will receive a fair hearing.


1. Unfortunately by the time I have feedback to give, I am done with the scenario because I have searched through forums or used the editor to figure out the problem.
2. Real world does not have arbitrary win conditions based on scenario specific mechanisms. I the real world when I have to land my force by X time on Y beach I don't have to accomplish that by obeying arbitraty event triggets like "Unit A must be within Area B for C amount of time".

My only suggestion is to not be vague about the mechanisms when your scenario needs very specific triggers for things that in real life are self explanatory. It is not my job to figure out that "landing a recon unit" means "hovering any helicopter within a certain area so that a teleoprt event triggers".

(in reply to Randomizer)
Post #: 26
RE: Refund - 6/12/2014 9:41:51 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I do have one criticism that I agree with. Scenario briefings are often out of sync with that is going on, or woefully incomplete as to victory conditions and specific actions that must be taken to meet them. Often I have found myself with wiped out enemies but still unable to win because I did not move Unit A within area B so that event C can be fired, even though no specific instructions that I needed to do that were given.


You payed for ours so you can be much more judgmental and grind us over the coals in the web forum all you want.

The community scenarios are a volunteer effort and people are learning so I think patience and helping people out would probably yield a better return in the long run. Might even make a friend or two

Mike



_____________________________


(in reply to Shemar)
Post #: 27
RE: Refund - 6/13/2014 12:33:08 AM   
dox44

 

Posts: 668
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: the woodlands, texas
Status: offline 		my background is USMC. so my main problems are learning the strengths/weaknesses of platforms/systems
that i know little or nothing about...then apply that within the flow of the sim.

i understood what i was purchasing when i bought CMANO. i researched the game and waited for a while before
i purchased it. i don't want a refund nor am i disappointed with what i've seen from the game (we could argue
whether that is a compliment or not though). i knew it would take a while.

its just frustrating. i'm not sure much can be done. i'll just keep playing and watching mr. baloogan (?)

thanks for asking though, i appreciate it.



< Message edited by casebier -- 6/13/2014 1:46:13 AM >

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 28
RE: Refund - 6/13/2014 1:09:41 AM   
Shemar

 

Posts: 205
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

The community scenarios are a volunteer effort and people are learning so I think patience and helping people out would probably yield a better return in the long run. Might even make a friend or two



I am not sure what constitutes a 'community scenario'. I have only played scenarios that came with the game so far. In any case I specifically avoided mentioning specific scenarios so hopefully nobody it taking my comments personally.

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 29
RE: Refund - 6/13/2014 1:21:41 AM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Which is probably good. You seem wound a little tight about this scenario business. Just sayin

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 6/13/2014 2:24:45 AM >

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