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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> Fighting allied 4 engines

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Fighting allied 4 engines - 5/21/2014 9:29:57 PM

PetrOs

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Hey,

Playing for jap vs AI now, late 42 as for now, and I have a trouble that the B-17E and F raids are sweeping my zeros en masse... For example, last turn a relatively minor night raid of 6 fortresses shot down 5 my Zero A6M3s at Port Moresby. Zeros were well trained, pilots being about 60 exp, 70 air, 60 def or so. Its quite annoying, and I fear to imagine what would happen when the allies would use larger numbers... My Kido Butai 2 (Kaga, Akagi,Junyo, Hiyo) was once attacked by 16 B17s and 24 B24s, which were met by over 90 perfect trained Zero 2 pilots. One Liberator down (+3 by flak), 7 Zeros down, 2 bomb hits on Junyo, 1 on Kaga - and not a single bomber turned away from attack run.

My question is, what is the best way for the japs to counter the bombers at late 42 and 43 at both day and night? Best fighter types, and best defensive tactics.... I mass produce Tojos, Nicks, and Zeros (2/3) now, with Tony and Jack production planned.

Post #: 1

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 5/21/2014 10:06:32 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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Nicks are the first plane you get that can really compete. Zeroes do OK, but not great. You need cannons and armor. Nicks have both.

Jacks and Georges do OK. Frank does well.

(in reply to PetrOs)

Post #: 2

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 5/22/2014 12:16:03 AM

Lowpe

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Play a mod where the AA is beefed up.

Radar, lots of sets, will eventually help too.

At night, use cheap planes because they can't fight until you get night fighters. But they can help to disrupt the attacks.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 3

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 5/22/2014 12:41:35 AM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Play a mod where the AA is beefed up.

Radar, lots of sets, will eventually help too.

At night, use cheap planes because they can't fight until you get night fighters. But they can help to disrupt the attacks.

Or just grab the database/scenario updates from Andy. The updated flak stuff really works wonders. Ask my KB fighter crews on 12/8 how they liked the flak at Pearl Harbor. 20ish A6M2 lost to flak under default turn 1 orders.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 4

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 5/22/2014 6:00:39 AM

PetrOs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Play a mod where the AA is beefed up.

Radar, lots of sets, will eventually help too.

At night, use cheap planes because they can't fight until you get night fighters. But they can help to disrupt the attacks.

quote:

At night, use cheap planes because they can't fight until you get night fighters. But they can help to disrupt the attacks.

Could this mod be applied without restarting the game?
And I fear it would be a two-edged sword - my losses to AA are quite high currently, up to 5 (plus ops..) Nells/Bettys/Sallys/Helens per turn, as I keep Darwin down with about 100 bombers (and burned a lot of 4 engines there ;)), and also keep major pressure on surrounded Chittagong also by about 150 planes, and also ground support in mop up of new zealand....

The cheap planes are getting shot down en masse at night...

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 5

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/13/2014 6:18:45 PM

leehunt27@bloomberg.net

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Gun values and armor value on your Japanese fighters are also key. Forget using Zeroes as CAP against Allied 4E bombers- use Tojos, Nick's, Rex etc. Also night bombing is not very effective in general, so just having some kind of CAP seems to have a very negative effect on bombing results. Maybe even seeing a single fighter makes the Allied pilots jittery, who knows.

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(in reply to PetrOs)

Post #: 6

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/13/2014 7:35:45 PM

Erkki

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Joined: 2/17/2010
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Ki-44 doesnt do better than Zero. Armor rating helps considerably against rifle and 50. cal machine guns and is a must(the 4E gunners score ridiculous numbers of hits on attacking fighters, a Zero, Ki-43 or a Ki-44 usually disengages if hit even if few are actually lost beyond repairs). For damaging and shooting down the 4Es cannon armament is needed, and that means you need Ki-45, Ki-61, Ki-84, N1K, J2M etc. and you only have one of those in 1942. Easy choice.

In the night, dont resist with the 1942 daytime fighter paper kites. You have two bad options: let them bomb, or let them bomb and shoot down your fighters that wont hit them: bomber gunners have little trouble hitting fighters in the dark.

(in reply to leehunt27@bloomberg.net)

Post #: 7

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/13/2014 8:15:55 PM

SenToku

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Joined: 11/29/2012
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Also, make sure you keep hitting their fields. G3M3 has legs to do harrasment on them, so I recomend using it.

Damage to service and runway are limited and number of planes destroyed and damaged is not that great, but the aviation support will be eaten up by fighters doing CAP, instead of large fleet of dangerous 4E's allowing you to get numerical superiority against incoming raids. Switch to night bombing occasionally to make sure AI sends another fighter unit in for night figter duty. That makes 2 units some 10+ hexes from front, so that is well worth doing.

(in reply to Erkki)

Post #: 8

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/13/2014 9:10:33 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Ki-44 doesnt do better than Zero. Armor rating helps considerably against rifle and 50. cal machine guns and is a must(the 4E gunners score ridiculous numbers of hits on attacking fighters, a Zero, Ki-43 or a Ki-44 usually disengages if hit even if few are actually lost beyond repairs). For damaging and shooting down the 4Es cannon armament is needed, and that means you need Ki-45, Ki-61, Ki-84, N1K, J2M etc. and you only have one of those in 1942. Easy choice.

In the night, dont resist with the 1942 daytime fighter paper kites. You have two bad options: let them bomb, or let them bomb and shoot down your fighters that wont hit them: bomber gunners have little trouble hitting fighters in the dark.

SuluSea sandboxed the Ki-44IIa versus the Ki-44IIc against Allied 4EB attacks. Very much superior performance with the latter due to the 4x 12.5mm (versus the 2x 12.5mm in the former). Granted, most of these tests were on the more vulnerable B-24 lineage, but you can shoot down Allied 4EBs with just MG-armed aircraft with alacrity.

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Post #: 9

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/13/2014 9:13:31 PM

Erkki

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Ki-44 doesnt do better than Zero. Armor rating helps considerably against rifle and 50. cal machine guns and is a must(the 4E gunners score ridiculous numbers of hits on attacking fighters, a Zero, Ki-43 or a Ki-44 usually disengages if hit even if few are actually lost beyond repairs). For damaging and shooting down the 4Es cannon armament is needed, and that means you need Ki-45, Ki-61, Ki-84, N1K, J2M etc. and you only have one of those in 1942. Easy choice.

In the night, dont resist with the 1942 daytime fighter paper kites. You have two bad options: let them bomb, or let them bomb and shoot down your fighters that wont hit them: bomber gunners have little trouble hitting fighters in the dark.

SuluSea sandboxed the Ki-44IIa versus the Ki-44IIc against Allied 4EB attacks. Very much superior performance with the latter due to the 4x 12.5mm (versus the 2x 12.5mm in the former). Granted, most of these tests were on the more vulnerable B-24 lineage, but you can shoot down Allied 4EBs with just MG-armed aircraft with alacrity.

Aye but no Ki-44-IIc in 1942. I think majority of the performance increase is from the armor though, as it lets the fighters to shoot at the bombers much more.

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 10

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/13/2014 9:23:05 PM

Chickenboy

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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki
Aye but no Ki-44-IIc in 1942.

Sez you.

I brought mine forward to late September 1942.

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Post #: 11

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/13/2014 9:29:18 PM

Erkki

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki
Aye but no Ki-44-IIc in 1942.

Sez you.

I brought mine forward to late September 1942.

Your Allied opponent must have approved... I've always used a HR against skipping planes.

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 12

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/13/2014 9:40:21 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki
Aye but no Ki-44-IIc in 1942.

Sez you.

I brought mine forward to late September 1942.

Your Allied opponent must have approved... I've always used a HR against skipping planes.

He's given me carte blanche to go nuts with the air model. I suggested some measures to slow this down, but he didn't require that. I'm keeping this on the ledger for 'I owe him one' later.

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Post #: 13

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/14/2014 2:40:37 AM

panzer cat

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From: occupied Virginia
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The mass 4e bombers are deadly late in the war. The nick does ok early on. You need 2 to 3 cannon armed fighters to every bomber.

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 14

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/14/2014 4:42:17 AM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer cat

The mass 4e bombers are deadly late in the war. The nick does ok early on. You need 2 to 3 cannon armed fighters to every bomber.

Uhm, no. The allied 4Es are paper tigers. They really only shine during a short period in 42 before the Nick and George show up. After that allied 4Es are forced to stay within fighter cover which severely limits their range and use.

When OPS losses are accounted for allied players will lose about 0.75-1 4E for each airborne Japanese 2nd Gen fighter (or later). With the low replacement numbers on 4Es a single Japanese aerial ambush can cost you months of replacements. This is especially true late in the war.

(in reply to panzer cat)

Post #: 15

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/14/2014 4:54:37 AM

Yaab

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PetrOs, before Nicks arrive, your best fighters are Oscars Ic (they have 2 x 12.7mm MG in CL position) and Zeros (for their 2 x 20mm cannon in F position). Every fighter can score lots of hits on B-17, even Claudes. Just watch the combat animations and see how fighters attack from upper front/lower front positions and whack the 4Es. The problem is that 7.7mm MGs installed on Claudes and Zeros cannot totally destroy aircraft whose armor level is 1. You need at least 12.7mm MGs to do so, preferably in CL position, due to the higher accuracy of such arrangement. That is why the Nick is so deadly against 4Es - it packs in CL position: 1 x 20mm, 2 x 12.7mm. You have to wait until April 1944 to see a fighter that matches the Nick's CL firepower. This is when Ki 61d arrives, with its CL 2 x 20mm cannons.

Also, you need many radars to detect the bombers early so your CAP arrives in full strength. B-17s are very fast, and your CAP cannot be "diluted" - there will not be enough time to scramble or vector the fighters onto the bombers.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 6/14/2014 6:35:57 AM >

(in reply to panzer cat)

Post #: 16

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/15/2014 12:57:48 AM

panzer cat

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Once the allies get a toe hold in the DEI, a lot of oil facilities are within p47 range. Now if you tell me how to kill p47's that would help.

(in reply to JocMeister)

Post #: 17

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/15/2014 3:02:31 AM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki
Aye but no Ki-44-IIc in 1942.

Sez you.

I brought mine forward to late September 1942.

Your Allied opponent must have approved... I've always used a HR against skipping planes.

He's given me carte blanche to go nuts with the air model. I suggested some measures to slow this down, but he didn't require that. I'm keeping this on the ledger for 'I owe him one' later.

Would this be me? Or the Lemon kid?

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(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 18

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/15/2014 9:05:45 AM

obvert

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The other key is number of fighters in the air. You have to overwhelm 4Es with numbers. If you get above a 2:1 ratio even with zeros you can be effective.

The best coming up in 43 are the J2M series. The climb rate gets so many to the point of battle and the canons get the work done. The George is great too, but you get the service 2 Jack much earlier. The Tony suffers so much from enemy fighters it's hard for them to make it through to kill any bombers. In rear areas they can work though.

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Post #: 19

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 6/15/2014 9:21:14 AM

Yaab

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And once the 4Es break through, you need flak guns to disrupt their targeting, and some engineers to repair the potential damage to infrastructure. So, you really need to have RCFE (radar, CAP, flak, engineers) in place.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 6/15/2014 10:22:03 AM >

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 20

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 7/6/2014 4:47:17 PM

Dili

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Ki-45 is your 4E fighter initially, try to get as much as you can, also choose the model wise. Having a big gun with with a slow rate of fire isn't good. This game unfortunately for most part is biased to quantities.

< Message edited by Dili -- 7/6/2014 5:51:29 PM >

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Post #: 21

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 7/6/2014 8:39:36 PM

Amoral

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer cat

The mass 4e bombers are deadly late in the war. The nick does ok early on. You need 2 to 3 cannon armed fighters to every bomber.

Uhm, no. The allied 4Es are paper tigers. They really only shine during a short period in 42 before the Nick and George show up. After that allied 4Es are forced to stay within fighter cover which severely limits their range and use.

When OPS losses are accounted for allied players will lose about 0.75-1 4E for each airborne Japanese 2nd Gen fighter (or later). With the low replacement numbers on 4Es a single Japanese aerial ambush can cost you months of replacements. This is especially true late in the war.

If allied 4Es are a paper tiger I'd hate to see a real one. They force you to keep a big squadron at every oil station within bombing range. They force you to build three linked airbases in every place you want to defend. And eventually, they end the war.

(in reply to JocMeister)

Post #: 22

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 7/6/2014 9:03:57 PM

pharmy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Ki-45 is your 4E fighter initially, try to get as much as you can, also choose the model wise. Having a big gun with with a slow rate of fire isn't good. This game unfortunately for most part is biased to quantities.

even the Nick B with the 37mm at 1% accuracy? Never dared to actually to produce it.

(in reply to Dili)

Post #: 23

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 7/8/2014 3:16:45 AM

Dili

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Specially that :) but both 37mm has a very mediocre accuracy. In fact for game proposes the first Nick is the best one. At least you damage more often and damaged bombers stays in airport.

< Message edited by Dili -- 7/8/2014 4:20:14 AM >

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Post #: 24

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 7/15/2014 11:33:00 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

And once the 4Es break through, you need flak guns to disrupt their targeting, and some engineers to repair the potential damage to infrastructure. So, you really need to have RCFE (radar, CAP, flak, engineers) in place.

Oh, great now we have our overseas forumites adding acroyms.

Just kidding Yaab, hey at least you explained it.

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(in reply to Yaab)

Post #: 25

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 7/16/2014 11:19:11 AM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer cat

The mass 4e bombers are deadly late in the war. The nick does ok early on. You need 2 to 3 cannon armed fighters to every bomber.

Uhm, no. The allied 4Es are paper tigers. They really only shine during a short period in 42 before the Nick and George show up. After that allied 4Es are forced to stay within fighter cover which severely limits their range and use.

When OPS losses are accounted for allied players will lose about 0.75-1 4E for each airborne Japanese 2nd Gen fighter (or later). With the low replacement numbers on 4Es a single Japanese aerial ambush can cost you months of replacements. This is especially true late in the war.

If allied 4Es are a paper tiger I'd hate to see a real one. They force you to keep a big squadron at every oil station within bombing range. They force you to build three linked airbases in every place you want to defend. And eventually, they end the war.

Read Joc's AAR of his game with Obvert and you'll see the facts for yourself.

He speaks from experience, not conjecture.

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Hans

(in reply to Amoral)

Post #: 26

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 7/17/2014 5:55:10 AM

Dili

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Note that B-29 are more difficult to down than B-24's

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Post #: 27

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 7/25/2014 11:33:42 AM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
Uhm, no. The allied 4Es are paper tigers. They really only shine during a short period in 42 before the Nick and George show up. After that allied 4Es are forced to stay within fighter cover which severely limits their range and use.

Joc is quite correct here, as I am finding out first hand.

However, you do need to allocate a lot of fighters to bomber defense out to 20 hexes to avoid unpleasant surprises.

And night bombing pre-night fighters is still very difficult to counter....but not impossible.

(in reply to JocMeister)

Post #: 28

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 7/30/2014 3:45:00 PM

Cavalry Corp

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From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
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It is gaming not to produce the fighters in line as you are using hindsight ( I am in scn 2 and building all the nicks) . that said the 37mm should be better against a big target like B17. Maybe the rating of the gun is wrong or typo?

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 29

RE: Fighting allied 4 engines - 7/30/2014 8:47:55 PM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

It is gaming not to produce the fighters in line as you are using hindsight ( I am in scn 2 and building all the nicks) . that said the 37mm should be better against a big target like B17. Maybe the rating of the gun is wrong or typo?

No, that gun IRL was rather poor to say the least. Horrible rate of fire is one thing I remember. I just produce the first version of the Nick for a day fighter.

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Post #: 30