RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended TechTree) [WIP]

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds 1 Series >> Design and Modding >> RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended TechTree) [WIP]

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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 6/12/2014 11:22:53 AM

hewwo

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/22/2010
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owww:( I hope that is crushed in the least damaging way of the word.

(in reply to Unforeseen)

Post #: 91

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 6/12/2014 7:02:45 PM

Sithuk

Posts: 431
Joined: 12/17/2010
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The 1.9.5.3 patch just got published. The fix for the designer to auto add enough reactors to reach full hyperspeed doesn't appear in the changelog. Has it been fixed?

quote:

Hi Locarnus

The AI ship design will add as many reactors as required to meet your energy output needs, not just a single reactor.

However the current logic to drive hyperdrives at full speed does add only a single reactor.

We'll add a fix for this in the next update (1.9.5.3)

Thanks
Elliot

< Message edited by Sithuk -- 6/12/2014 8:16:26 PM >

(in reply to hewwo)

Post #: 92

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 6/12/2014 7:15:55 PM

ehsumrell1

Posts: 2529
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Unforeseen

Annnnd nvm i crushed three of my fingers at work.

Ooooh, very sorry to hear that. Hope you don't have severe damage or lose them. Hope
your recovery is swift.

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Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...

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Post #: 93

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 6/13/2014 6:26:14 AM

pycco

Posts: 345
Joined: 5/28/2013
From: United States of America
Status: offline

how goes the mod?

imo the only way to compensate for the new requirements of energy is for you to make the designs your self.

(in reply to Locarnus)

Post #: 94

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 6/13/2014 6:51:49 PM

Unforeseen

Posts: 608
Joined: 3/26/2013
From: United States of Disease
Status: offline

Thanks guys, the damage was thankfully minimal. The doc was shocked that my finger bones didn't splinter into hundreds of pieces. Just small little hairline fractures and some bad flesh wounds. I'm actually already able to use them again for the most part, it just hurts a bit.

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Post #: 95

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 6/13/2014 10:52:46 PM

ehsumrell1

Posts: 2529
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unforeseen

Thanks guys, the damage was thankfully minimal. The doc was shocked that my finger bones didn't splinter into hundreds of pieces. Just small little hairline fractures and some bad flesh wounds. I'm actually already able to use them again for the most part, it just hurts a bit.

Great to hear that Unforeseen! Hope to hear you back kicking Shakturi butt real soon.
Get well buddy!

_____________________________

Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...

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Post #: 96

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 6/14/2014 3:57:38 PM

Locarnus

Posts: 287
Joined: 5/30/2010
From: Earth, Sol
Status: offline

@Unforeseen:
I m very glad your fingers are not as bad as they first appeared.
Had my hand in plaster once and it made me realize how valuable a working hand is.
I wish you well and hope for a quick recovery!

If I understand Haree78 correctly, the StingerBeam was designed as a higher power/longer range phaser lance. I left the branching as Haree78 decided. They just omitted the phaser step.

The weapons graphics selection sounds great, looking forward to it!

@Wanabe:
I plan to fill in the "missing" sizes and may change the starting sizes as well in the next major patch (not sure when it comes, depends on the fixes and my rl time constraints now).
Something along the line of 180(160), 240 (230), 300(300), 360 (fill in), 430(400) or so.
As you said, it is quite a problem with current template systems to make some which work for early and late game, especially if the differences between the 2 get larger.

@Enderbou:
I m not sure about the term "size" in DW. It seems to be some kind of abstraction taking both volume and mass into account. While I agree that hab modules should have larger volume than now, the mass is pretty low. I dont want to stray too much from vanilla, DW:U modding does not seem to be made for that.

@Tehlongone:
I m still not sure how to balance the racials. With the current design logic, if I make the Zenox shields 9 size and the template calls for 3 shields, the "advantage" is only 3 less size (ie just higher speeds, if not cut off by size). If I leave them at 10 size and raise the recharge rate by 0.1, it would mean 0.3 more recharge rate with 3 shields. The latter would really make the Zenox shields have faster recharge and thus reflect their tech advantage in that area.
Will probably just do that (with a minimal advantage on last tech step, like the proposed 0.1 or so), but in no way decided yet, if anyone has objections. After all they reach that step much faster now.

@CyclopsSlayer:
Corrected the countermeasures and targeting in 0.87.
The branching off of the wonders was also some kind of preperation, if Elliot implements "national wonders" and makes the facilities more worthwhile to mod.

@Tanaka:
Yeah, I havent heard from Foma, so I might need to try to balance the hyperdrives myself.

@dwaine:
Thanks for the full trees! I linked your post in the OP. A great overview!
I will include your fuel suggestion in the next version as proposed, although that might be out some time, as 1.9.5.3 did not balance the energy needs/production.

@hewwo, Sithuk & pycco:
Elliot has stated that he is working on it, unfortunately it didnt make it in 1.9.5.3, just tested it.
So I ll have to wait for that to happen, cant edit the design templates in such a way, if I want to keep the mod compatible with themed mods.

@bugbear777:
You are welcome ;-).

< Message edited by Locarnus -- 6/14/2014 4:59:53 PM >

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Post #: 97

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 6/14/2014 4:25:45 PM

Tehlongone

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Joined: 12/21/2010
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Well a 0.1 recharge advantage doesn't bother me, and for all the racial techs I'm fine with a tiny advantage at the last step it just bothers me when they are in a whole other league to conventional tech as that kinda belittles the accomplishment of it and seems, well, weird considering tech is broadly something that could be discovered by anyone.

For the record I believe size 9 is a pretty big advantage, I usually have more than 10 shields on my primary ships and that means 10+ extra space for other things or an entire shield extra. Two extra for a capital ship.

Anyway again thanks for the mod, it's awesome.

(in reply to Locarnus)

Post #: 98

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/14/2014 5:06:59 PM

FingNewGuy

Posts: 183
Joined: 4/11/2014
From: Boulder, CO
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quote:

...and with high research costs, the pre warp start grants the pirates a major advantage over normal empires.

Yes it does! I am kinda enjoying that added excitement though, TBH- especially at Extreme difficulty. However, I am eager to try this out too! Thanks,

(in reply to AnddyiRaynor)

Post #: 99

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/14/2014 5:24:08 PM

Locarnus

Posts: 287
Joined: 5/30/2010
From: Earth, Sol
Status: offline

@FingNewGuy:
At the moment I like to play on expensive research settings. Although the AI empires still seem to struggle to get out of their home system.
It kind of has a nice balance between pirate strength (some are powerful, but most are average) and some independents are forming empires while most are still ready to be conquered when you come out of your home system.

Unfortunately the AI research problems are a direct result of the research mechanic. It is just too easy to exploit for humans by just building a spaceport with only energy labs to rush warp precursor and ship size in the beginning and then retrofit for more diverse research.

edit:
@dwaine:
There are some max research costs. Over that, the game crashes without error message.
So on tech level 13, with the exponential function used by the game, the reasearch costs are 2^(13-1)*basecosts = 4096*basecosts.
Which means that somewhere above 30k basecosts in the startup should be the threshold to crash the game if you have a level 13 research project with no set cost factor in the tech tree.
I manually limited all level 9+ research project costs to level 8 standards (128 factor) to make the mod compatible with 999k base cost settings. The manual set factor overrides the exponential function thus the cost is not anymore based on the level the project is in.

< Message edited by Locarnus -- 6/14/2014 6:34:36 PM >

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Post #: 100

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/19/2014 3:26:56 PM

Icemania

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From: Australia
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Looks like they given this some focus in the 1.9.5.4 patch Locarnus, hope it does the trick!

(in reply to Locarnus)

Post #: 101

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/19/2014 7:06:55 PM

dwaine

Posts: 30
Joined: 7/8/2010
From: France
Status: offline

Indeed, they listened to you, just have to see if it WAD.
If you are interested, i can help with the fuel thing, i have some ideas for the higg tech branch.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 102

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/20/2014 12:17:16 PM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

Locarnus, please have a read here: Distant Worlds AI

This may provide an opportunity of interest to you or one of our other Modders

Pretty please with cherries on top?

< Message edited by Icemania -- 6/20/2014 1:17:49 PM >

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Post #: 103

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/20/2014 10:57:18 PM

Locarnus

Posts: 287
Joined: 5/30/2010
From: Earth, Sol
Status: offline

Just Saw the Update notes, but i ve very Limited Time this Weekend and the next, so only Chance for me to work on the mod is early next week. i can probably implement specific proposals.

So far on the to do List are Reactors and the Racial fuel cells as proposed.

Ps: this autocorrect is annoying as hell.

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Post #: 104

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/22/2014 11:41:50 PM

Locarnus

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Joined: 5/30/2010
From: Earth, Sol
Status: offline

My response to the new modding feature that racial techs can now be defined in the research.txt as well, from the "Distant Worlds AI" thread.

In short, if the new feature is used by race modders, it removes the modularity of race mods and research mods and thus the basis for making the BalanceMod worth the effort.

It is therefore put on hold again, at the same time as the energy balancing was fixed...

This really feels like a paid beta for the "modding" expansion and I start to regret putting so much time in it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Locarnus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Locarnus

I like the Idea that the Research Projects themselves can be restricted to races, although i First have to Look at how it is implemented and can only do this monday.
I Hope it is only optional and the Old Way is still possible. With the current Way i can Mod the Research.txt with Restrictions, but it is compatible with all Mods using the Vanilla Research.txt. I ll have to Look at the New Way First.

Imho the only Way to have competitive Research from pre Warp Start for the ai is a totally different Research Points generating System. The current One is just massively exploitable.

If you look earlier in the thread I had a lot of difficulty getting Disallowed Components and Disallowed Research to work ... is that what you meant by the old way?

Either way, if we can get the AI to restrict weapon research to focus on one or two weapons, and also change the ship/base design template files to align with those restriction, we could see another good improvement in AI performance with weapons.

That said, I don't know what Matrix have cooking in coming patches. Erik/Elliot?

Yes, basically I meant with the old way, that race specifics are stated in the race files and not spread out to other files.

From what I saw in the research.txt, using the new way will remove the modularity of modding in research. It further shifts modding towards full conversion and is thus incompatible with my research mod.

A better way would have been to merge the tech foci and allowed/disallowed components into race component/tech modifiers.
Eg
15, 0.0, 87, 0.2, 114, 2.0, 64, 9.9
would mean that component 15 is disallowed, component 87 is avoided (1.0 would be normal), component 114 is a tech focus and component 64 is a racial component.

I will have to wait and see if and how much Haree78 and other race modders make use of the new approach (non-full conversion race modders will be severely handicapped by this as well, since it will become much harder to just add their race(s) to other mods).

I like to use different themes/racial mods myself and I liked combining mods.
If my research mod is thus effectively restricted to vanilla or a support role for a specific mod, it is not worth my time and effort anymore, so I ll have to stop development of my mod once again (just after the energy balancing is resolved) and wait how this is adopted by the race modders.

< Message edited by Locarnus -- 6/23/2014 12:42:41 AM >

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Post #: 105

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/23/2014 5:25:30 AM

hewwo

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/22/2010
Status: offline

Honestly, I think you might be overreacting a bit. Just because the option is there doesn't mean that everyone will jump on it to use it. Even in the event some mod uses these new options, it might not make them 100% compatible with your mod, but it should be fairly easy to merge them. So I really think continuing this mod and seeing making a new tech tree that is much more satisfying is the way to go. Once you're done other modders will incorporate your work. Don't worry about that:) I play mostly vanilla + extended anyway, so I'm happy to test your mod while you play around with it!

(in reply to Locarnus)

Post #: 106

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/23/2014 11:55:00 AM

Locarnus

Posts: 287
Joined: 5/30/2010
From: Earth, Sol
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At the moment this mod had 2 versions.
One for vanilla and one for extended.

When I make a new version it works like this:

1. I mod the version compatible with extended.
2. I just delete the last couple of research projects to get the vanilla compatible version.

It took a lot of effort to bring the research.txt into a shape that allows such easy support for 2 versions.
To be fully compatible with the new version of Extended (Haree78 already stated that he will use the new "feature") I would need to edit the vanilla segment of the research.txt as well. Thus when I want to make a new version of the BalanceMod I can not just do the steps above because the vanilla segment would also be different.

Which makes supporting even the 2 current versions (vanilla and extended) a nightmare if I want to continue development.
So I would realistically need to decide between being a support mod for only 1 race mod, just modding for vanilla, or ignoring the race mod changes based on the new race tech modding.

At first glance the latter does not seem so bad, but there might follow a string of consequences, like adjusted templates based on the new race techs and so on.

The basis for this mod and the effort I put into it was, that I can (with a lot of work in the beginning) easily support 2 versions and the mods based on those versions. This basis was removed by the patch, so the mod is on hold (again).
Also I really dont like that this new "feature" was not first proposed in the forum and thus open for discussion by the active modders.

< Message edited by Locarnus -- 6/23/2014 12:56:34 PM >

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Post #: 107

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/23/2014 2:16:04 PM

Unforeseen

Posts: 608
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From: United States of Disease
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Well i wouldn't go vanilla. Practically nobody plays vanilla that i know of. And there was noooo way you were going to be able to cater to EVERYONE anyways. New feature or not.

I think you could just focus on the Extended version, and you will still be catering to what the majority of players probably use if they aren't trekkies or something.

Just a thought, but It would be a total waste for you to quit now. You spent quite a bit of time on this and accrued a decent following. Give Haree a pm and ask him what exactly he plans to do with the feature, and see how much work it would be plzplzplzplzplzplzplz.

< Message edited by Unforeseen -- 6/23/2014 3:51:17 PM >

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Post #: 108

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/23/2014 3:17:24 PM

Kizucha

Posts: 107
Joined: 6/3/2013
Status: offline

Here another "fan" of your mod, it will make me sad if you quit modding.

But i will accept it if you quit, your right its hard work... but there are more like me that are to stupid to make mod's like your themself.

Ok the last bit its a bit high but i only hope you are not quiting because i have fun with your mod.

(in reply to Unforeseen)

Post #: 109

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/24/2014 10:51:24 AM

Sirian

Posts: 174
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Status: offline

I don't know how good you are at programming but if I were in your situation I would try to make a program that compiles your data (from a textfile or such) into 2 different description files according to a parameter (vanilla or extended)

Maybe its possible to just keep the extended version up to date and automatically delete all extended specific stuff for a vanilla version. I must admit, I haven't looked at these files, so I cannot say anything about the needed effort, but it would be worth a try.

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Visit Sirian's Mods

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Post #: 110

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/26/2014 10:56:22 AM

Tehlongone

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Joined: 12/21/2010
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It's a shame about the difficult compatibilities but you shouldn't worry about the other mods they can just make themselves compatible with this one, or it can be looked upon in the future. I don't see any point in catering to vanilla as while many players are still playing it those same players are usually doing so because they don't use mods at all.

Hence you need not worry about any mods aside from the Extended mod and my impression of Haree78 is that he is pretty open to suggestions and even if not your files can simply overwrite his as per your wishes. You can essentially ignore all the other mods and do your own thing.

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Post #: 111

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/26/2014 11:41:27 AM

Unforeseen

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From: United States of Disease
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I think Locarnus is more concerned about becoming what he called a "support mod". This i don't really agree with, as Haree's mod is a must have standard mod. It may as well be vanilla.

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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/26/2014 1:28:15 PM

Rol1983

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Little help to Locarnus:
I update Balance mod to the new Haree's Extended version 1.0.3(patch 1.9.5.4 Comp), if people like this i can do vanilla upgrade too.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Rol1983 -- 6/26/2014 4:55:07 PM >

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Post #: 113

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/26/2014 3:16:40 PM

Locarnus

Posts: 287
Joined: 5/30/2010
From: Earth, Sol
Status: offline

Thanks @all!

It seems like the new racial tech feature is not used so far.
About vanilla vs extended, I dont really care about vanilla DW:U, but most smaller themed mods use the vanilla tech tree. So staying compatible with vanilla is aimed at those.

I think I put too much emphasis on staying compatible myself. I think I ll generally change that approach in a way that I provide 2 or so versions and other mods have to figure out how to be compatible if they want to. Not ideal, but workable for me.

Anyway, I cant look at stuff right now, I m off for the next days and start working again on this mod at the end of next week.

I ll try to incorporate the stuff which was planned for this week as well as the next stage.
So it can hopefully be bugtested together and provide a major improvement for people who want to start a new "long" game.

ToDo (afair):
- reactors
- racial fuel cells
- racial shields
- 1.9.5.4 changes
- cheaper first tier techs/hyperdrive to help the AI empires
- rebalanced hyperspeeds (eg 3k, 5k, 7k and so on) up to end game
- rebalanced construction sizes (180, 240, 300...)
- thrusters (optional)
- wonders again (optional)

Not sure at what speed the hyperspeeds should end.
Also not sure about construction sizes. Bigger sizes would need different AI templates and I want to leave those to the theme/racial modders.

Any suggestions to the above or other areas are very welcome.
This will probably be the last major patch for a while since I wont have much time in august and end of july.
Might as well call this 1.0 when bugfixed so new people know that it already works well.
Although it is far from finished, still lots of potential.

< Message edited by Locarnus -- 6/26/2014 4:18:09 PM >

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Post #: 114

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/26/2014 5:52:05 PM

danymatrix

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ohh yeahh!
when you think you can finish the patch 1.0?
award for best mod!

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Post #: 115

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/26/2014 6:59:57 PM

Morolth

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Joined: 6/26/2014
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I have been reading this thread for some time and had to create an account on the forum to tell you that it really looks great and I am looking forward to see when you'll be able to release the version with your To Do list. Keep going on, you are doing a great job!

(in reply to danymatrix)

Post #: 116

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/26/2014 7:48:24 PM

Efaferal

Posts: 45
Joined: 6/4/2014
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The balance Mod has been a lot of fun to play. I would recommend to extend the range of missiles in order to offset the obvious superiority of the torpedoes.

just my two cents.

E

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Post #: 117

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/27/2014 12:07:19 AM

Unforeseen

Posts: 608
Joined: 3/26/2013
From: United States of Disease
Status: offline

/worships Locarnus

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Post #: 118

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP] - 6/27/2014 6:54:52 AM

Kizucha

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Because i dont want to post a "smilie-post", i'm really looking forward to the new version of the mod. ^.^

< Message edited by Kizucha -- 6/27/2014 7:56:41 AM >

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Post #: 119

RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 6/27/2014 8:11:07 AM

bugbear777

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Post #: 120

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