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RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/2/2014 6:40:28 PM

xepooqu80

Posts: 27
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Tried a game with the latest version
I was Sluken , difficulty normal so i guess no AI bonuses.

Good news:
Dhayut (which were modded as well in this compilation) won the game, the 2nd contender were ugnari which i guess were not modded.
Sluken didn't do so well and ended 6th out of 8 empire.

A few things i observed

- The change to research in the spaceport did work and the race started with the right amount of research, still not having research base and scientist is a major drawback
- At 230 size Escort were buildable but Explorers weren't .. this is still a big issue
- Sluken had some ships with missiles and phaser lances, this created an issue that sometimes when attacking enemy planets they would stay at range firing only missile and never doing any significant damage at all
- On the same note as above defense base were armed only with phaser lance and happily kited enemy fleet that didn't date come closer unless in force
- I was at restless setting, my empire was always at war with 1 or 2 empires
- troop transport were available at 300
- game didn't crash with pirates
- As usual fleet behaviour was strange.. i was 2 troop carriers loaded with 10 troops staying for years trying to kill the shield of a gas mining base

All in all a good update, i suggest as priority to make sure explorers are built at 230: thanks Icemania for the effort!!!
If i can i will let another game run later this evening and post other feedbacks

(in reply to Cauldyth)

Post #: 31

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/2/2014 11:54:06 PM

PsyKoSnake

Posts: 111
Joined: 1/25/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: acantoni

Tried a game with the latest version
I was Sluken , difficulty normal so i guess no AI bonuses.

Good news:
Dhayut (which were modded as well in this compilation) won the game, the 2nd contender were ugnari which i guess were not modded.
Sluken didn't do so well and ended 6th out of 8 empire.

A few things i observed

- The change to research in the spaceport did work and the race started with the right amount of research, still not having research base and scientist is a major drawback
- At 230 size Escort were buildable but Explorers weren't .. this is still a big issue
- Sluken had some ships with missiles and phaser lances, this created an issue that sometimes when attacking enemy planets they would stay at range firing only missile and never doing any significant damage at all
- On the same note as above defense base were armed only with phaser lance and happily kited enemy fleet that didn't date come closer unless in force
- I was at restless setting, my empire was always at war with 1 or 2 empires
- troop transport were available at 300
- game didn't crash with pirates
- As usual fleet behaviour was strange.. i was 2 troop carriers loaded with 10 troops staying for years trying to kill the shield of a gas mining base

All in all a good update, i suggest as priority to make sure explorers are built at 230: thanks Icemania for the effort!!!
If i can i will let another game run later this evening and post other feedbacks

quote:

also very much have Extreme difficulty in mind with this ... where the AI empires will have the cash to build those wonders.

The race you are playing dont get the AI bonus.
You need to play at extreme setting for the ai to get the bonus, and test the mod for Icemania.

Playing at normal dont give enough cash to the AI.

(in reply to xepooqu80)

Post #: 32

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/3/2014 5:28:43 AM

xepooqu80

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Wait.. let me see if my understanding is correct and also if you understand what we are trying to achieve here.

The mod is intended in the future for the player to be playing at higher difficulty, which means the AI gets bonus while the player to play the game: this is granted and assume you play with the small automation you want an empire and the AI manages the other empires

What i am doing right now as suggested in the thread is test the behaviour of a modded empire under full automation, ie take as my empire one of the modded and have a go at full automation to see what happens and what it does, being my nation that i am observe being the one modded the higher difficulty would not impact ME but the others and since i am not playing if i have a go at extreme difficulty my empire would likely be crushed (as all empires are governed by the same AI, but my empire would be the only one not having the bonuses) making the testing i am trying to conduct here not really worthwhile
I agree with you the next steps would be "play" normally against higher difficulty AI, but i am not there yet in this testing

Is it like I described or if i launch a game at extreme and leave it in full automation my empire gets an ai bonus aswell ?

Other observation from a Dhayut game
Weapon research -> Dhayut is beelining towards Impregnable structures and not researching any weapons at all.. they still have "Energy Torpedo WEapons" and "Enhanced Beam WEapons" , that's it: this is putting them at massive firepower disadvantage in my current game

< Message edited by acantoni -- 7/3/2014 10:52:24 AM >

(in reply to PsyKoSnake)

Post #: 33

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/3/2014 10:45:39 AM

Icemania

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From: Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: acantoni
Other observation from a Dhayut game
Weapon research -> Dhayut is beelining towards Impregnable structures and not researching any weapons at all.. they still have "Energy Torpedo WEapons" and "Enhanced Beam WEapons" , that's it: this is putting them at massive firepower disadvantage in my current game

Was that a Prewarp Start? On my Prewarp Tests it's worked. On Standard Starts it doesn't ... I don't understand why yet. As mentioned earlier please focus Prewarp for the moment.

(in reply to xepooqu80)

Post #: 34

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/3/2014 10:51:15 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PsyKoSnake
The race you are playing dont get the AI bonus.
You need to play at extreme setting for the ai to get the bonus, and test the mod for Icemania.

My goal is to improve AI performance at any difficulty but optimised for Extreme. I also prefer to play Prewarp, but hope it will eventually be used on other Starts.

Testing on both Normal and Extreme is useful.

On Normal, the empire you are playing will no have penalties, and you can observe exactly what happens. As you say, there won't be enough cashflow to really take advantage in various ways, such as wonder construction.

On Extreme, the empire you are playing will have penalties which isn't useful to watch. However, you can pause and go to game editor and see what the other AI's are doing.

Please avoid Standard Starts though.

(in reply to PsyKoSnake)

Post #: 35

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/3/2014 11:11:20 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: acantoni
A few things i observed

- The change to research in the spaceport did work and the race started with the right amount of research, still not having research base and scientist is a major drawback
- At 230 size Escort were buildable but Explorers weren't .. this is still a big issue
- Sluken had some ships with missiles and phaser lances, this created an issue that sometimes when attacking enemy planets they would stay at range firing only missile and never doing any significant damage at all
- troop transport were available at 300
- As usual fleet behaviour was strange.. i was 2 troop carriers loaded with 10 troops staying for years trying to kill the shield of a gas mining base

I'll try a Research Priority of 1 again (but will keep the spaceport designs as they are in order to ensure there is always sufficient Energy Research).

Sluken have Phasers and Bombardment weapons. I've checked the design templates and played a test game and there are no missiles.

However, to get Bombardment weapons, you have to research Enhanced Missiles first. At that point the AI will fit Missiles rather than Bombardment weapons. Once Bombardment weapons are available, the AI will fit Bombardment weapons rather than Missiles.

Explorers were available at Size 230 in my test game. I'm not sure why there is a difference between our tests. I'll have to make it slightly smaller again.

I'm okay with Troop Transports at Size 300 (as Size 300 is a research focus).

I can't do anything about fleet behaviour.

Did you like having Starburners available so quickly?

Any observations on why they finished 6th? Resource shortages? Sometimes the AI just gets stuck, nothing much I can do about that. Private Ship Designs were all improved e.g. they are faster, more extractors on mining ships etc.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/3/2014 1:23:31 PM >

(in reply to xepooqu80)

Post #: 36

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/3/2014 11:40:08 AM

Icemania

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The benefits of early Starburner Research ... a Speed 77 Explorer! LOL

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/3/2014 12:40:12 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 37

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/3/2014 11:56:39 AM

aaatoysandmore

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What mod is this? where do I find it? Is it easy set.exe type mod or do I have to download 4 things or more an install in specific order?

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 38

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/3/2014 12:12:13 PM

Icemania

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No mod yet, it's a work in progress, a LONG way to go yet. There is a link to the files in a previous post, it's setup as a theme, but download only if you want to test and provide constructive commentary.

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)

Post #: 39

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/3/2014 12:17:38 PM

xepooqu80

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Joined: 3/25/2010
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Hello Icemania!
Great progress so far :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: acantoni
Other observation from a Dhayut game
Weapon research -> Dhayut is beelining towards Impregnable structures and not researching any weapons at all.. they still have "Energy Torpedo WEapons" and "Enhanced Beam WEapons" , that's it: this is putting them at massive firepower disadvantage in my current game

Was that a Prewarp Start? On my Prewarp Tests it's worked. On Standard Starts it doesn't ... I don't understand why yet. As mentioned earlier please focus Prewarp for the moment.

It was normal start, interesting that on standard it doesn't.. still will keep it in mind.
The thing i don't like at all about prewarp is that it can take 30-60 minute to get anything done at 4x speed this make it really annoying to test, anyway next game will be pre-warp :D

quote:

Explorers were available at Size 230 in my test game. I'm not sure why there is a difference between our tests. I'll have to make it slightly smaller again.

In two test games i saw different behaviour.. With Sluken they were available at 300, with Dhayut at 230

quote:

Did you like having Starburners available so quickly?

Any observations on why they finished 6th? Resource shortages? Sometimes the AI just gets stuck, nothing much I can do about that. Private Ship Designs were all improved e.g. they are faster, more extractors on mining ships etc.

I would say the main reason i can see is that they got stucked in long wars without the ability to win it and ended up trading worlds with the other empire instead of expanding, possibly bad luck.

In general indeed i see that AI get less stuck, though sometime it still do silly things.. in my latest Dhayut test game i noticed two things which i guess are for Elliott as possible bugs
- I had around 20 explorers trying to refuel at Ancient Guardians spaceport, they would circle around it like flies : fly in-> fly out.. after a few years they were all shot down and died
- There was a huge pirate base with 700 firepower, in my dhayut game where they didn't research weapon i saw fleet after fleet going there and die

My next game will be ME playing against AI empires with your mod.. at very hard (not ready for extreme yet!) and see what happens :)

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)

Post #: 40

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/3/2014 12:49:07 PM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: acantoni
My next game will be ME playing against AI empires with your mod.. at very hard (not ready for extreme yet!) and see what happens :)

Cool but you may want to hold on for tonight's update ..

(in reply to xepooqu80)

Post #: 41

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/3/2014 1:00:14 PM

Icemania

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Mining Ships and Gas Mining Ship Design Templates have been optimised to ensure they are also available at Size 230. They still have an extra Mining Engine/Gas Extractor, Speed and Cargo compared to the AI defaults.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/3/2014 2:03:52 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 42

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/3/2014 1:14:32 PM

Icemania

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[SUPERSEDED - refer latest link in the OP]

I'm having great fun watching the Sluken at the moment with Starburners early ... PreWarp Start, Normal Difficulty, Excellent Homeworld (to avoid too many resource issues for testing)!

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/8/2014 11:51:45 AM >

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 43

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/3/2014 1:35:23 PM

Icemania

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It is interesting observing some of the AI resource shortages. In my current test game the AI is short on Aculon with Spaceport Construction stalled as a result. There is a source of Aculon in a nearby system but no Mining Ship or Construction Ship is sent to that location for many years. Why couldn't the AI take an action to resolve this?

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 44

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/3/2014 3:33:37 PM

Icemania

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Deleted - was trying to allow other bug races access to Shaktur Firestorm - but looks like there is a hard coded prevention

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/4/2014 12:15:58 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 45

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/4/2014 9:11:18 AM

Icemania

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In a course at work and was bored out of my mind with an Industrial Relations Presentation ... and a better solution to Research came to mind. The plan is keep my new Spaceport designs (which will ensure there are enough labs for a race appropriate balance), Research Priority to 1 (so Stations will be built at locations with bonuses) but reduce the Labs on Research Stations to 2 from the current 6 (which would prevent the AI from getting way out of balance between research fields).

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/4/2014 2:35:21 PM >

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Post #: 46

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/4/2014 10:30:02 AM

Icemania

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I'm seeing a definite improvement in default AI research orders from the 1.9.5.5 patch particularly for Weapons. Previously it looked like ResearchDesignTechFocus was not really working (as noted in the Distant Worlds AI thread) but I suspect Elliott has got this going. Nice work! And I hope some of the other ideas here get adopted as well.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/4/2014 12:15:48 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 47

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/4/2014 2:08:54 PM

Icemania

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Just testing "Trade Priority = 4". In a Gizurean test game it appears to have led to Construction Ships being built faster and retrofit faster, helping a little with resources very early game. With default the Construction Ships were built late and retrofit slowly.

Has anyone tinkered with this setting? Unfortunately there is no real explanation in the Modding Manual for manual for "Numeric value between 0.5 and 4.0" parameters.

Also does anyone know how to increase the number of Construction Ships the AI builds in the early game?

And then any ideas on how to avoid overbuilding Mining Stations later on?

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 48

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/4/2014 2:36:22 PM

Icemania

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Just tried combining that "Exploration Priority = 4". The AI built Construction Ships then focused on 8 Exploration Ships so has helped get both Construction and Exploration off to a good start (found the Warp Field Ruins much faster). Other Military and Private Ships then followed.

There will be quite a lot of improvements in the Sunday update ...

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/4/2014 3:36:45 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 49

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/4/2014 3:00:55 PM

Icemania

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Wow ... the Gizurean have 28 Exploration Ships and by late 2108 had found a Super Weapon, Way of Darkness, two Capital Ships ... and now they are using those Capital Ships to kick the snot out of the Quameno ... every Gizurean ship has fuel! The Gizurean just dominated the game after that. I was initially concerned that Exploration Ships would be overbuilt with more colonies/invasions but it seemed to cap at 48.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/4/2014 6:24:40 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 50

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/4/2014 11:33:09 PM

Shogouki

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Sounds great!

(in reply to Cauldyth)

Post #: 51

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/5/2014 3:23:30 AM

Icemania

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I've now implemented these changes with the Securan who have a Fighter Weapons Focus and Growth Wonder Focus.

Securan Test Game Observations for Elliott to Consider

The AI does not optimise tax rates in this case, it should take advantage of their extra happiness to increase tax rates, but instead Happiness is excessive at +50. Recommend the Securan happiness target is +20, they remain a Happy race, but will improve income.

In the Design Template Files, I needed to include another Weapon for Military Ships to avoid a Crash. Fighter Bays should be counted as a Weapon so that we are not forced to put on Weapons that are not the focus for that race.

As noted in Tech Support by AirPower, Fighter Bays does not count towards Firepower, but should.

The AI's very often have Helium shortages. Like Osalia for Beam focused races. Could stock at the start of the game be increased?

Some Military Ships were built even though they had been shrunk to the point where no weapons were available (particularly relevant with a Fighter focus). There should be at least one weapon available before a Military Ship is allowed to be built.

A Fighter focus means more AI vulnerability very early i.e. before Fighter Bays are researched and Fighters are built. To enhance the AI ability to handle Pirates, could we get them to pay protection when they are too weak to defend themselves? And then cancel that protection when the Pirates leave to avoid bankrupting their economies?

The AI does not build enough Construction Ships early game.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/5/2014 4:32:33 AM >

(in reply to Shogouki)

Post #: 52

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/5/2014 3:58:20 AM

ParagonExile

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Icemania, is this/will this be compatible with the extended tech tree mod? It makes the game so much better, but yours looks so promising as well.

Please say yes!

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 53

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/5/2014 4:10:01 AM

Icemania

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After tackling Vanilla I was planning to have a closer look at the Extended mod and then after that the Extended Tech Tree mod.

However, sadly Locarnus has abandoned the Extended Tech Tree mod for the moment.

I'm providing an ongoing commentary and all the details openly for anyone to use, there is no need to ask permission for anything.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/5/2014 5:10:40 AM >

(in reply to ParagonExile)

Post #: 54

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/5/2014 4:15:26 AM

ParagonExile

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

After tackling Vanilla I was planning to have a closer look at the Extended mod and then after that the Extended Tech Tree mod.

However, sadly Locarnus has abandoned the Extended Tech Tree mod for the moment.

I'm providing an ongoing commentary and all the details openly for anyone to use, there is no need to ask permission for anything.

So you wouldn't mind if I took your work and extended it out?

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 55

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/5/2014 4:15:50 AM

Icemania

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A new update with the many recent changes is now available in the Original Post.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 56

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/5/2014 4:17:38 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

After tackling Vanilla I was planning to have a closer look at the Extended mod and then after that the Extended Tech Tree mod.

However, sadly Locarnus has abandoned the Extended Tech Tree mod for the moment.

I'm providing an ongoing commentary and all the details openly for anyone to use, there is no need to ask permission for anything.

So you wouldn't mind if I took your work and extended it out?

Not at all! If you wanted to focus on applying this to the Extended Mod please go ahead. Just keep in mind it's very much in a state of flux at the moment, you may want to test the latest update and provide some commentary first. That said I'll keep the commentary going anyway.

(in reply to ParagonExile)

Post #: 57

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/5/2014 4:23:38 AM

ParagonExile

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

After tackling Vanilla I was planning to have a closer look at the Extended mod and then after that the Extended Tech Tree mod.

However, sadly Locarnus has abandoned the Extended Tech Tree mod for the moment.

I'm providing an ongoing commentary and all the details openly for anyone to use, there is no need to ask permission for anything.

So you wouldn't mind if I took your work and extended it out?

Not at all! If you wanted to focus on applying this to the Extended Mod please go ahead. Just keep in mind it's very much in a state of flux at the moment, you may want to test the latest update and provide some commentary first. That said I'll keep the commentary going anyway.

That's great to hear!

Keep up the good work wo/man!

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 58

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/5/2014 7:27:16 AM

xepooqu80

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Just downloaded the new version and planning to give it a go in the week end.
Quick question.. what settings do you recommend to play this at?
I usually do kind of small maps which might not the best suited:
250 start
8x8 irregular
expensive research
many strong pirates
1.5 sector for colonization 100% radius, default for colony prelalence/idipendent life/starting system/whatever else
No tech trading, 7 auto generated other empires
And you mentioned pre-warp start
Difficulty well you recommend extreme.. i guess i will go very hard

Any settings i should tweak? i am mostly concerned about the galaxy size as it is usually very packed

(in reply to ParagonExile)

Post #: 59

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/5/2014 10:28:02 AM

Icemania

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I think I found the problem on Standards Starts. In the Research Order you've always got to include the Tier 1 technology e.g. Projectile Weapons. I missed that in a few of the race files which then blocked that path. So with that and the Pirate issue fixed, you should be able to try a variety of settings ... and if not you can again help me debug! My testing has been PreWarp focused.

I go with Cheap Research so the game moves quickly during testing.

Excellent homeworlds do help avoid the most chronic research shortages. They will still happen though it's just a question of how often and how long. The recent changes to the Policy files do seem to help a bit.

Small maps etc ... go for it!

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/5/2014 11:29:00 AM >

(in reply to xepooqu80)

Post #: 60