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Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 6:54:06 AM   
gunny3013

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline 		I have experienced a total failure in a CV battle so one sided it was difficult to believe. All vessels and aircraft are properly configured and attacked their mark. The problem is they never put a scratch on any IJN vessels while the Japanese air strike innihalated my entire CV TF, all this despite me launching twice as many Aircraft than he did. After chaulking it up to an anomaly, I continued play only to have the exact same thing occur a second time some time later. Not a bloody scratch on his futuristic fleet while mine was wiped out to the ship. Anyone else ever have this issue?
Post #: 1
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 7:31:39 AM   
koniu


Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline 		Give some data to us.
Combat report, TF composition, Air Group settings. Pilots skills etc.

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Post #: 2
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 8:09:26 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		What year(s)?

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Post #: 3
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 11:23:54 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Yes it happens. Both ways although some of us AFBs are incredulous that it ever happens in our favor as the IJN is the one that seems to be blessed most of the time.

I just had a Midway at Noumea this weekend. Sinking 3 IJN CVs and a CVL with one paint scratching bomb hit on the Lady Lex in return. The Japanese had superiority in carriers, but mine were hiding under the cover of 94 land based fighters, 50 of which were dedicated to LRCAP.

This happened in mid June of '42. One of the carriers still had TBDs and two of them still had one squad each of SBD2's.

A CV victory for the Allies is possible in mid '42, but a lot depends on the luck of the weather and making sure the encounter takes place under LBA cover.

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Post #: 4
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 11:25:57 AM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		Weather is the deciding factor when numbers are roughly even in my experience.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 5
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 11:29:30 AM   
Itdepends

 

Posts: 937
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline 		Did either fleet have detection on it prior to the battle or was it in range of land based naval search?
<insert appropriate Alfred comment about insufficient information provided by OP here>

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Post #: 6
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 12:14:36 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		A brief paragraph description is not really enough to go on.

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Post #: 7
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 3:05:21 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

Give some data to us.
Combat report, TF composition, Air Group settings. Pilots skills etc.


This.

My default response, in the absence of actionable information, is that you most likely did not have all vessels and aircraft properly configured. But I'll not launch further conjecture without screen shots of your CVTF configuration, mission profiles of your planes, leadership reviews, weather reports, etc. etc.

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Post #: 8
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 4:01:26 PM   
Amoral

 

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/28/2010
Status: offline 		He likely had a high detection level on you. How many of your aircraft are dedicated to search?

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Post #: 9
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 4:42:18 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline 		More details pls.

When I play Allies I have rule of thumb....don't use CVs for any action vs. IJN CVs until you have the newer generation of planes.

Could be that you are unlucky in which case I'd love to play you!!

(in reply to Amoral)
Post #: 10
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 4:43:59 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

He likely had a high detection level on you. How many of your aircraft are dedicated to search?



Well, he did say that he launched twice as many aircraft so DL is not an issue. However, so many other unknowns. Coordination, weather, leaders, date, composition of TF, range, escort and so on. Like said before, you cannot hope to get a qualified answer until you provide qualified data. Screenshots are your friend.. If it is a AI game post the replay file. Somebody here without a life (so many of us) will be glad to look at it for you..

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Post #: 11
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 8:19:45 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

He likely had a high detection level on you. How many of your aircraft are dedicated to search?



Well, he did say that he launched twice as many aircraft so DL is not an issue. However, so many other unknowns.


Number of aircraft launched is not neccessary an indicator of pre-strike DL. Amoral's point is valid.

That said, I agree with the rest of your post and the other comments.


I have started a CV battle guide a couple of months back, but sadly did not find the time to finish it. It is hidden somewhere in the warroom and the thread contains a lot of valuable poste by other experienced players.



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Post #: 12
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 8:37:18 PM   
EHansen


Posts: 360
Joined: 12/6/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

More details pls.

When I play Allies I have rule of thumb....don't use CVs for any action vs. IJN CVs until you have the newer generation of planes.

Could be that you are unlucky in which case I'd love to play you!!


Why? I am in December 1942 and I have taken out most of KB without losing a single CV. You just have to do things right.

< Message edited by EHansen -- 7/7/2014 9:36:50 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 9:08:41 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline 		Good work EHansen! Especially if you did it with Buffaloes and Devasators!!

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Post #: 14
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 9:45:48 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		Historically the first lopsided battle was the Battle of the Philippine Sea in 1944. Both sides got hurt in all of the 1942 battles.

Since the IJN torpedo bombers never fired a shot in anger prior to Pearl Harbor (with a torpedo) it is curious why they rate so highly and the RN torpedo bombers rate so poorly. Crumby airplanes aside they had managed to cripple the Bismarck, an Italian cruiser or two while those ships were underway at sea. Also notable is that they had sunk 3 Italian BBs at Taranto with half as many bombers as the IJN used at Pearl Harbor.

The CV battle that never happened in the IO isn't even a possibility since the doesn't allow the RN torpedo bombers to find anything at night even those at least some of them had a surface search radar. Is this because the IJN couldn't play CVs at night at all?

(in reply to gunny3013)
Post #: 15
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 10:28:51 PM   
cohimbra


Posts: 632
Joined: 10/15/2011
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Also notable is that they had sunk 3 Italian BBs at Taranto with half as many bombers as the IJN used at Pearl Harbor.

None of the 3 BBs was sunk, although one of them never came back into service:
- BB Conte di Cavour, 1 torpedo hit, never came back into service;
- BB Caio Duilio, 1 torpedo hit, came back into service;
- BB Littorio, 3 torpedo hits, came back into service.


La Notte di Taranto (The Night of Taranto), 11/12 november 1940

http://digilander.libero.it/planciacomando/WW2/taranto1.htm (pag.1)
http://digilander.libero.it/planciacomando/WW2/taranto2.htm (pag.2)
http://digilander.libero.it/planciacomando/WW2/taranto3.htm (pag.3)
http://digilander.libero.it/planciacomando/WW2/taranto4.htm (pag.4)





< Message edited by cohimbra -- 7/7/2014 11:30:54 PM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 10:30:09 PM   
Erkki


Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		They rate poorly because they were poor. Performance is performance, and they were rather awful and obsolescent.

If you meant the torpedoes, I think the in-game values are derived from real life torpedo range, running speed, possible reliability issues and warhead power.

You cant make generalizations out of just a couple of events. Taranto and Bismarck are hardly a huge sample size for measuring combat effectiveness of Swordfish' or British torpedoes. BB Marat and this certain pilot called Rudel don't make Ju 87 a great dive bomber either.

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 17
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 10:56:39 PM   
gunny3013

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline 		My PC will not allow access to any other program while the game is running and print screen simply doesn't give very much information. Outside of that I'm not skilled in the program enough to post any other information. Sorry

I can tell you that -weather- had no impact or effect and we both took a single swing at each other in both circumstances. The period was early and mid 42.

It's not that I lost my whole fleet that matters, it's that he walked away without a scratch both times. Oh, and the game is VS. a live opponent.

In about a half dozen other "live" games, both sides took hits although the USN took the brunt, in this one I have never stood a chance. Hate to ask this but... is there a way to minipulate the program?

< Message edited by gunny3013 -- 7/8/2014 12:06:26 AM >

(in reply to koniu)
Post #: 18
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/7/2014 11:34:20 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Most of the Japanese pilots at Pearl Harbor had combat experience in China. The IJN rotated all their carrier crews through China to get some real world experience. The IJN also drilled their pilots far more than Western navies did. The pre-war training regime for IJN pilots was brutal and long.

The Shokaku and Zuikaku pilots were significantly greener than the other 4 fleet carriers at the start of the war. Many had not been to China and in some cases their training had been cut short to build up the carrier air groups. The other 4 carriers had among the best naval aviators in the world in late 1941.

Except for Midway, the USN did not do very well in carrier battles in 1942. The USN only managed to sink two CVLs, damage the Shokaku twice, and damage a third CVL (Zuiho) in exchange for the Lexington and Hornet as well as severe damage to the Enterprise. In addition Japanese subs knocked out the Saratoga for much of 1942 and sank the Wasp, as well as issuing the coup de grace to the Yorktown.

The IJN sank as many US fleet carriers in 1942 as the USN did Japanese CVs. The Japanese had more decks with the CVLs, longer range aircraft, better pre-war pilot training, and two of their CVs were probably the best in the world until the Essexes came along.

The USN had one excellent day against the IJN in June 42, but the rest of 42 was not so good. If Midway hadn't gone the US's way, 1942 would be remembered as a year of dreadful carrier losses for the USN. Ultimately the US would have won the war, but Guadalcanal wouldn't have been possible if the US hadn't won at Midway and the US probably would have been slower to get on the offensive.

Bill

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Post #: 19
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 12:28:13 AM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline 		Well at least until August '45

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Post #: 20
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 2:11:32 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

My PC will not allow access to any other program while the game is running and print screen simply doesn't give very much information. Outside of that I'm not skilled in the program enough to post any other information. Sorry



Sure you can. Just go into your save directory and cut and paste the combat report from the action here. Lots of good text hints in that. Don't edit it for brevity, there's some tasty tidbits of clarity in there.

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Post #: 21
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 3:03:18 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Since the IJN torpedo bombers never fired a shot in anger prior to Pearl Harbor (with a torpedo) it is curious why they rate so highly and the RN torpedo bombers rate so poorly.


In all Mediterranean war only twice British FAA planes put a torpedo in an italian warship at sea despite dozens instances of attacks.
What they were good was hitting ships at night in the harbours. Taranto is just one example of many. That can only be achieved with slow and low airplanes vs a base defense prepared to fire against high altitude level bombing and of course badly placed anti-torpedo nets.






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Post #: 22
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 10:55:54 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

My PC will not allow access to any other program while the game is running and print screen simply doesn't give very much information. Outside of that I'm not skilled in the program enough to post any other information. Sorry

I can tell you that -weather- had no impact or effect and we both took a single swing at each other in both circumstances. The period was early and mid 42.

It's not that I lost my whole fleet that matters, it's that he walked away without a scratch both times. Oh, and the game is VS. a live opponent.

In about a half dozen other "live" games, both sides took hits although the USN took the brunt, in this one I have never stood a chance. Hate to ask this but... is there a way to minipulate the program?


The game doesn't "like" to be minimized., but it can be. Alt+Tab will minimize the game, allowing access to a paint program to paste screen shots captured with the print screen button.

It's re-maximizing that the game doesn't like and it shakes itself out graphically in fits and starts until it properly restores the screen display.

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Post #: 23
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 11:13:23 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

My PC will not allow access to any other program while the game is running and print screen simply doesn't give very much information. Outside of that I'm not skilled in the program enough to post any other information. Sorry

I can tell you that -weather- had no impact or effect and we both took a single swing at each other in both circumstances. The period was early and mid 42.

It's not that I lost my whole fleet that matters, it's that he walked away without a scratch both times. Oh, and the game is VS. a live opponent.

In about a half dozen other "live" games, both sides took hits although the USN took the brunt, in this one I have never stood a chance. Hate to ask this but... is there a way to minipulate the program?


The game doesn't "like" to be minimized., but it can be. Alt+Tab will minimize the game, allowing access to a paint program to paste screen shots captured with the print screen button.

It's re-maximizing that the game doesn't like and it shakes itself out graphically in fits and starts until it properly restores the screen display.


This.

You can reduce the averse effect of re-maximizing by closing all ingame screens before alt-tabbing out but I still would not reccommend to do it more than once per session, and even then you might notice graphical artefacts.

Personally I save and reload. It is a hassle but there is only so much you can do with a source code this old.



@gunny3013: You can access op/combat/intel reports through the savegame folder. If you have the -archive switch in your command line then you can access all reports ever generated by the game by acessing the save/archive folder. For screenshots there are a couple of freeware programs that allow you to take screenshots without exiting a program.

As has been stated a couple of times in this thread already, providing very detailed ingame data and additional information about the battle itself, as well as the battles´ context and preface, is essential if you want to get any helpful analysis from the forums. If not you all you will get is opinionated guesswork and general statements.

It is absolutely possible to fight a CV battle to a draw against the IJN - even very early in the war, with luck even win. But you have to do your homework and engage from a position of advantage, what that is exactly depends on the situation.

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Post #: 24
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 11:37:08 AM   
gunny3013

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

My PC will not allow access to any other program while the game is running and print screen simply doesn't give very much information. Outside of that I'm not skilled in the program enough to post any other information. Sorry



Sure you can. Just go into your save directory and cut and paste the combat report from the action here. Lots of good text hints in that. Don't edit it for brevity, there's some tasty tidbits of clarity in there.


There's about 10,000 of those files and I'm not searching through all that. Can they be eliminated after a game?

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 25
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 11:37:19 AM   
Erkki


Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		You can also run the game in windowed mode.

If you really really want to run the game in full screen and take screenshots, you can use a capturing program such as ScreenHunter to do it for you - saves the entire screen or a pre-designated part of it on a folder of your choice.

Re-entering the game after alt-tabbing to desktop can shake the game graphics badly. To me, if theres a menu open the background will become black, and if I do it during a combat animation the background will be black again and all the graphical effects of the combat replay vanish.

One way to reset the graphics seems to be entering and exiting either one of the database libraries, either aircraft or device/ship menus. I sometimes lose the mouse pointer and going there makes it appear again.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 26
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 11:48:32 AM   
gunny3013

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

My PC will not allow access to any other program while the game is running and print screen simply doesn't give very much information. Outside of that I'm not skilled in the program enough to post any other information. Sorry

I can tell you that -weather- had no impact or effect and we both took a single swing at each other in both circumstances. The period was early and mid 42.

It's not that I lost my whole fleet that matters, it's that he walked away without a scratch both times. Oh, and the game is VS. a live opponent.

In about a half dozen other "live" games, both sides took hits although the USN took the brunt, in this one I have never stood a chance. Hate to ask this but... is there a way to minipulate the program?


The game doesn't "like" to be minimized., but it can be. Alt+Tab will minimize the game, allowing access to a paint program to paste screen shots captured with the print screen button.

It's re-maximizing that the game doesn't like and it shakes itself out graphically in fits and starts until it properly restores the screen display.


This.

You can reduce the averse effect of re-maximizing by closing all ingame screens before alt-tabbing out but I still would not reccommend to do it more than once per session, and even then you might notice graphical artefacts.

Personally I save and reload. It is a hassle but there is only so much you can do with a source code this old.



@gunny3013: You can access op/combat/intel reports through the savegame folder. If you have the -archive switch in your command line then you can access all reports ever generated by the game by acessing the save/archive folder. For screenshots there are a couple of freeware programs that allow you to take screenshots without exiting a program.

As has been stated a couple of times in this thread already, providing very detailed ingame data and additional information about the battle itself, as well as the battles´ context and preface, is essential if you want to get any helpful analysis from the forums. If not you all you will get is opinionated guesswork and general statements.

It is absolutely possible to fight a CV battle to a draw against the IJN - even very early in the war, with luck even win. But you have to do your homework and engage from a position of advantage, what that is exactly depends on the situation.


As was stated earlier in this posting as well, Detailed info is a lot more difficult to get than you seem to realize.

...to heck with a draw or a victory! I would have settled for a single hit! 4 CV's sunk and all four flew against their IJN opponents and came up ZILCH! not a bloody scratch! Nada! couldn't even hit a cargo vessel. All the while he wipes out my entire fleet in one single air strike! Something is a miss.

Remember in AI games and games against other opponents my CV's aren't heroic or anything but they can at least score a few hits with no problem. It's just this one player's CV's that seems to have star trek shields to maximum...

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 27
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 11:52:33 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		As mentioned, lopsided CV battles didn't happen until 1944.

Although the Japanese were the first to create a powerful air striking force in their First Air Fleet/Kido Butai they were little better prepared to conduct a carrier vs carrier battle than their US adversaries: simply because no such battle had ever been fought by anyone until Coral Sea. At that battle neither the Japanese nor the Americans displayed any particular acumen. Its ending as a Japanese tactical victory was hardly a certainty when the IJN strike aircraft left the scene of their attack on the US CVs (the Lexington was making 20 kts when the fuel vapor explosion overtook it).


Likewise the Japanese "first team" can hardly claim to have showed "how it's done" at Midway.
Experience gained fighting obsolete aircraft with lousy pilots while bombing nearly defenseless cities doesn't count much in CV battles. It's CAP did well for a while against American ineptitude but the fact remains that at the moment that those SBDs smashed the KB the number of Japanese strike aircraft launched at the American TFs was precisely ZERO. The Hiryu's two subsequent strikes were well done except that only a few of the participating a/c were ever going to be available to strike again.

The remaining CV battles of 1942, resulted in pretty even damage:

1 US CV, Hornet, sunk
USS Enterprise damaged severely twice
vs
1 IJN CVL, Ryujo, sunk
CV HIJMS Shokaku damaged severely
CVL HIJMS Zuiho damaged

(IJN subs did well but their contributions did not contribute to the CV battles directly: and six of them died in the Solomons).

Lopsided battles between CVs really have no historical basis.

(in reply to gunny3013)
Post #: 28
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 12:00:45 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		By the time the first IJN bomb/torpedo was dropped at Pearl harbor the FAA had scored hits on 4 Italian, 3 French and 1 German battleship, along with a crippling torpedo hit on an Italian CA, and bomb or torpedo hits on 10 destroyers.

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Axis/Shipssunk.htm

(in reply to gunny3013)
Post #: 29
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 12:23:40 PM   
Erkki


Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		Do you read what people write to you?

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 30
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