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NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs 1EyedJack & Rysyonok (J) - BTS

 
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NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs 1EyedJack & Rysyon... - 7/16/2014 11:08:34 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I had sent a private email to Cribtop (Dwain) back a few weeks ago when "Between the Storms" Mod (BTS) was still under early development between mainly John 3rd (J3) and myself with the input from other players. We had gotten Symon/JWE to assist in doing a fuller integration of DBB with RA which will become RA 7.0. I cannot thank Symon/JWE enough for the work he has done to assist J3 in doing RA upgrades and offering feedback in getting the mods up. The main focus was to bring RA's ground OOB up to total DBB. I will get into what the OOB changes are for DBB that will end up in BTS in a later posting.

At this moment, Cribtop has a proposed House Rules (HR) to review and make changes to. The possible areas will be Realistic R&D On or Off and any restrictions on strategic bombing. I want as few HRs as possible. I will post them here when agreed upon.

I tend to stay away from lots of Combat Report "copy & paste" unless there is a reason to do so. After observing and then taking an active role in the short, but blood battles between Jim & Larry vs John 3rd in RA, I'm going to try to discuss more of the behind the scenes logistics and training going on. This mod will be even more 'what if' stuff from a naval point of view for both sides than RA has been as it will add the ship changes from "Treaty Mod" to RA to give both sides more naval assets in the beginning. I will get into possible uses for those ships as I expect a lot more naval combat early in the war with the various hybrid CAVs and CLVs the Allies get along with Japan's hybrids. IMO, Japan will need to be more methodical in her expansion.

Dwain is welcome to visit for the time being as I don't expect the game to start for another couple of weeks. I will ask him to leave later.

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 3/22/2015 6:47:00 PM >

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Post #: 1
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/17/2014 12:31:44 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		Looking forward to the background and logistical stuff. Sounds like a lot of new changes in this one to keep you both on your toes. Really more unknowns I guess and that will be interesting to see played out.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 2
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/17/2014 1:27:33 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I posted over in Cribtop the Scenario Descriptions of the Treaty and RA Mods. Here is RA and then I'll post Treaty:

The Reluctant Admiral is a Japanese 'what if' scenario based upon a greater contribution by Adm. Yamamoto Isoroku to the development of the Kaigun in 1936-1941. The premise of the Mod is that Yamamoto exerted a much greater influence first on the Japan Naval Aircraft Industry, then as Deputy Navy Minister, and finally as Navy Minister itself. Yamamoto chooses, at great risk to his life, to forego command of the Combined Fleet and dedicate himself to preparing Japan for a war he didn't want. He adds two new slipways for Fleet construction to facilitate a different, final pre-war expansion of the Kaigun. New and expanded Naval Yards, Heavy Industry, and Armaments are added at tremendous cost for the Japanese economy as the Admiral attempts to prepare Japan for a possibly long war. In so choosing to do this Yamamoto then changes the 4th Circle Building Plan replacing the 3rd and 4th Yamato-Class Battleships with improved Shokaku-Class CVs and a pair of Kawachi-Class fast Battlecruisers, two Tone-Class CAs, an accelerated Light Cruiser deployment, and additional destroyers. Quick, reasonably cheap carrier conversions are moved forward seeing all of the pre-war CVs/CVLs deploy by December 7th or at slightly earlier dates in 1942. Though only a few of these new ships are ready on December 7th, these additions shall make the Kaigun a force to be reckoned with well into 1944.

The Japan Naval Air Arm is changed so that everything is staked to the Zero Airframe with a specialization of the Zero into a Land-Based Interceptor as well as CV-Based Fighters. Research and production expansion is achieved by streamlining the air industry (cutting several models) while bringing forward second generation aircraft: Judy, Jill, etc… By great effort the IJNAF deploys nearly all new aircraft on December 7th.

On the ground Yamamoto reorganizes the SNLF units into a Brigade-Sized offensive force and—knowing it will be a war of attrition—converts many Naval Guard into enhanced units with Coastal Defense artillery (using guns taken from refitted warships) for a stronger defensive unit. Additional small units are added to the IJN’s Troops and support units better reflecting Yamamoto's foresight into base building, defense, and expansion needs. While all these units are small and not in great number they promise to help the Japanese war effort.

The foresight of the Admiral pays off during late-1942 and 1943 as new ships, aircraft, and ground units enter into the Japanese Order-of-Battle, however, the cost is steep. Though expanded and using modern aircraft many Japanese Naval Air units start with their experience lowered to reflect the dilution of the experienced pilots into new units that start in Japan or arrive during 1942-1943.

Supply and fuel reserves start at a much reduced state. The Japanese MUST take the DEI as fast as possible!

Once war begins RA postulates Yamamoto’s influence upon the wartime Kaigun. Several more Shokaku CVs are ordered as well as another pair of CAs, and the conversion of several CLs into CVLs. First class destroyers are accelerated and emphasis is shifted to the AA Akizuki-Class at the expense of the more balanced Yugumo’s. Manpower is at a premium within the Fleet so Submarines, Escorts, and ASW forces all see a major retooling reflecting the Japanese quality over quantity belief. Yamamoto chooses the immediately useful projects, large APs converting to CVEs, better 2nd-class destroyers, fast transports and coastal defense fleet.

It should be noted that not all the changes are for the Japanese. RA 6.4+ brings major additions and more choice for the Allied Player. The Allies see continued major changes in their starting locations, new air units, the addition of Training Squadrons on mainland USA to allow for an American pilot training program, enhanced aircraft production numbers, additional Allied FP groups, several ground units, a French Squadron at Noumea, the use of CLV Charlotte (a Flightdeck Cruiser), a CLAA conversion for the Omaha-CL, an additional pair of CVLs, and optional conversion of the Kittyhawk Class AKV, Tangier Class AV, and Cimarron Class AOs into CVEs. The added warships reflect a ‘stopgap’ counter to the increased Japanese strength found at war’s start.



How well can YOU do to use these new tools OR how well can you stop the Japanese Navy in its tracks as the Allies?



Designer's notes:

RA is fully compatible with Da Babe’s Modifications and may be used on the Extended Map with any other Babes feature.
This Mod uses the reduced cargo capacity of DBB.
Garrison requirements have been raised throughout the CBI Theatre to slow the creation and movement of immense stacks of troops that is considered a-historical.
Production is 'on' for this scenario
A special pwhexe.dat file is strongly recommended to help slow land movement throughout the map.
ATA Combat has been modified as per JWE/Symon’s work.



Scenario Designers: Stanislav Bartoshevitch (FatR), Michael Benoit (NY59Giants), John R. Cochran, III (John 3rd), Juan Gomez (JuanG), Ben Kloosterman (BK), John (JWE), EJ (SuluSea) and John Young (Red Lancer)

This description eeds to be updated to simply and clearly state that RA is now a DaBabes-based Mod.


_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 3
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/17/2014 1:29:11 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		...and the Treaty Description:

Treaty Mod is pure vanilla DB-C Dec 7th OOB with just a few bright and shiny toys added.

The Treaty Mod
ALTNAV 1922-1937

The Treaty Mod for AE has been created to reflect a slightly different outcome of the historic Washington and London Naval Conferences: 1922-1937. With little changes and tweaks to the Treaty System, a slightly a-historic outcome is produced. It should be noted that no changes are made to any major power from 1937-1941.

The Washington Conference
Charles Evans Hughes blueprint for disarmament gets out and the Japanese stonewall a Naval Conference for a full year. The Conference does take place in 1922 and disarmament is agreed upon, however, there are additions allowed due to the added time to get the meeting going. The whole Mutsu Debate is scrapped due to Mutsu actually being ready and deployed at that point. While maintaining the 5-5-3 ratio between Great Britain, the United States, and Japan, there are several new outcomes:

1. The Japanese then argue to keep either a Tosa or a pair of the Amagi Class battlecruisers. The Americans carry the day in arguing for the Lexington-Class battlecruisers being completed. They gain the Ranger and Constellation (while scrapping BB Mississippi to maintain balance), Great Britain gets the option to build a pair of Super-Hoods (while additionally scrapping Royal Sovereign), and Japan completes Amagi-Class Ishitaka.

2. The whole subject of CVs is reworked:
a. Allow two 'experimental' CVs (two Hosho's and two Langley's)
b. Two BC conversions are allowed but further treaty tonnage is added for one more CVL to be built by both Japan and USA. The Americans build the King’s Mountain (proto-Independence Class) and the Japanese back off the failed Ryujo design to build Ryukaku (a proto-CVL as well).

The London Conference
Moving on to the London Conference (1930) and the subject of Cruisers is re-worked:
1. Japan--at all costs--sticks to its goal of 70% for CAs (instead of 60%). This allows for GB and USA to build two more CAs (USA: Burlington and Rome) while Japan gains one.
2. Great Britain--who nearly scrapped the treaty due to the issue of CAs and CLs--stands firm over its argument and forces a larger tonnage for CLs. USA adds USS Anchorage and Dallas.
3. Both Japan and the United States were looking at hybrid Cruiser—CVs and they force Great Britain, following the example set with the Washington BC—CV Conversions, to allow for two hybrids each in the early-30s. USA builds CLV Charlotte and Jacksonville, GB builds CAV Melbourne and Wellington (sold/given to those respective navies), and Japan finishes up with CAV Kushiro and Tokachi.

***It should be noted that to take maximum advantage of the revised Treaty tonnages, Japan converts several of the oldest CLs into fast ML, builds additional Myoko-Class CAs and keeps the Mogami Class as 6” CLs.

As war clouds gather on the horizon, the United States makes several important decisions (1) to slightly reinforce the Asiatic Fleet with an additional CA, CL, and 4 modern DDs, (2) Admiral Hart also decides to follow his inner thoughts and begin development of Cebu as an alternate anchorage, and (3) the Scouting Force, commanded by Vc-Adm Wilson is sent south to protect the Philippine reinforcement TFs going to the Philippines (The Pensacola TF) and the empty TF returning from the Philippines (The Chester TF).

Japan deploys its few new ships to protect the Invasion TFs coming from Babeldoap and Cam Rahn Bay as the Kido Butai steams towards its rendezvous with destiny at Pearl Harbor…



< Message edited by John 3rd -- 7/17/2014 2:29:59 AM >

_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 4
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/17/2014 2:07:05 AM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		Hey, Michael! I will review the proposed HRs and get back via e-mail. I am just popping in to say hi and to say I'm really looking forward to this match and this mod. I will exit the thread now and kindly ask you do the same so we nasty JFBs can begin to plot your demise in earnest.

Thanks to you, Symon and John for the hard work on the mod.

_____________________________


(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 5
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/17/2014 2:51:57 AM   
moore4807


Posts: 1089
Joined: 6/2/2000
From: Punta Gorda FL
Status: offline 		The student is subscribed!

_____________________________


(in reply to Cribtop)
Post #: 6
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/19/2014 12:14:20 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Proposed House Rules:

quote:

House Rules: Cribtop vs NY59Giants
First turn
Allied – Can give orders to only units at sea, no new TFs, land or air movements or changing orders for LBA. China is exempt from this rule.
Japan – Multiple port strikes with carriers participating in strikes with LBA. None with just LBA. No gamey warp invasion, like Mersing, Singkawang, or Ambon.
No hunting of Allied CV's during the first turn.
Air
No 4E below 10,000ft. - Restricted to 10k or higher for naval and ground attacks (does not include PBY/Mavis type patrol craft).
Aircraft Limitations (reflecting the Between the Storm/RA Mods):
-No A6M3 on CVEs
-No A6M4 on any form of Carrier
-A7M Sam and B7A-D Grace cannot be operated from CVEs
General
Advanced weather is ON; PDU – ON; Realistic R&D – ON;
PPs must be paid when changing theater.
No strategic anywhere China until 1 July 1943.
Thai units may freely enter Burma and Malaya, but require PP's to enter India or China.
No invasions or paradrops on non-base hexes


Anything you would change??

EDIT: Got a series of emails from Dwain this afternoon and the only change was the strategic bombing back to nowhere until 1 July 43. He got clarification on first turn port attacks (LBA CAN participate if carriers and their air groups are involved).

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 7/19/2014 8:27:34 PM >

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(in reply to moore4807)
Post #: 7
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/19/2014 12:15:48 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		If you play DBB, then you need this....

quote:

Engineers:
The “name” of a device does not matter, only the device data matters. Any Eng unit can always build, but if it has Anti-Armor <1, it cannot reduce forts. If it has Anti-Soft <9, it cannot AV. If it is “named” Construction or Labor Eng, but is a Type = 23 (squad), it will not build. If it also has a-a <1, and a-s <9, it won’t do anything but eat (i.e., nothing but ‘bodies’). So there is a matrix of different Eng squads that represent a mix of abilities; build stuff, reduce forts, able to AV, some of the above, none of the above. DaBigBabes uses this matrix (according to our appreciation as to how it falls out) to help limit in-game tempo, by limiting in-game infrastructure.

Shore Party:
Shore Party is a sub-set of Nav Sup. Shore Party devices assist in loading/unloading but do not assist in repairing or rearming. Repair/rearm bases were very far and few between, for both sides, and thus with BigBabes, but both sides recognized an imperative for stevedoring and non-integral lift capability. Thus Shore Partys and a skoosh of code that lets them give an unload bonus to TFs. A Shore Party switch may be set for a Vehicle, such as an LVT-2 Amph Trac; It may be set for a Type = 24 Eng squad, like USA Port Srvc Sq, in which case it may also help build; It may be set for a Type = 23 Squad, like USA Amph Sup Sq.

Check the editor often, and become familiar with all the different kinds of units available. For example:

USMC Pioneer Sq – Squad type – No Build, Yes AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USN Constr Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, Yes AV, No Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USN Spec Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USN Base Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USA Port Svc Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USA Amph Sup Sq – Squad type – No Build, Yes AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts

IJA Shipping Eng Sq – Squad type – No Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, Yes Shore Party, LC = 17
IJA Cmbt Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, Yes AV, Yes Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 17
IJA Const Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 17
IJA Const Labor Sq – Squad type – No Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 20
IJN Const Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 17
IJN Const Labor Sq – Squad type – No Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 20

So IJ Const Labor doesn’t 'do' anything and, what’s more, has a larger load cost. This represents the large manual labor component (Chinese/Korean) that results in 1000 man Eng Bns/Rgts without giving much additional capability. Typical IJA Const Bns/Rgts have 32 Const squads (590 ‘men’, 1088 total with the support, etc.), but 16 squads are Const Eng, while 16 are Const Labor. It's a way to have 32 squad (1000 man) Bns/Rgts with half the capability of a corresponding 32 squad Allied unit.

Even though many squad devices don’t ‘do’ anything (and many Eng devices can’t assault), they are still marginally useful (apart from the Eng devices being able to build). Anti-Soft = 8 (typically) so these units may still ‘shoot’ during the pre-assault fire phase. They ‘shoot’ better than the default firepower of a 251 Eng or 252 Sup device, so that’s something.

Different load costs also allow Const Bns/Rgts to be tailored as to troop count and, therefore, load ability and troop population on atolls and small islands.



_____________________________


(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 8
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/19/2014 12:36:48 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		My initial list of 'free' Japanese troops for BTS mod (and RA). It helps me keep track of where the 1st and 2nd phase of Japanese expansions is taking place and if there are significant number missing then I may expect a surprise invasions somewhere.

quote:

Japanese Troops - Free!!

Unit Components Location
4 Ind Mixed Rgt Vietnam
21 Ind Mixed Bde Vietnam
65 Bde Formosa
Gds Mixed Bde Japan

Imp Gds Div Thailand
2 Div
4 Rgt
16 Rgt
24 Rgt
4 Div
5 Div
11 Rgt
21 Rgt
42 Rgt
16 Div
9 Rgt
20 Rgt
33 Rgt
18 Div
55 Rgt
56 Rgt
114 Rgt
21 Div Takao
30 Div 41 Rgt
33 Div Nagasaki
38 Div Hong Kong
48 Div
47 Rgt
1 Formosa
2 Formosa
55 Div
114 Rgt
112 Rgt
143 Rgt
55 Cav
56 Div
113 Rgt
146 Rgt
148 Rgt




1 Para Assault Div Peleliu
1 China Assault Div Tinian
2 China Assault Div Etorofu
1 Sasebo Assault Div Saipan
2 Sasebo Assault Div 05-Aug-42
1 Kure Assault Div Babeldoab
2 Kure Assault Div 01-May-42
1 Maizuru Assault Div Saipan
2 Maizuru Assault Div 12-Mar-42

1 Tank Rg
2 Tank Rgt
4 Tank Rgt
6 Tank Rgt
7 Tank Rgt
8 Tank Rgt
11 Tank Rgt
14 Tank Rgt



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(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 9
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/19/2014 1:01:52 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Turn just came in from Olorin in my other game, so I'll do it and be back.

_____________________________


(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 10
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/19/2014 3:26:31 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Advanced weather off? It does add uncertainty...

Are you ok with all those house rules?

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 11
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/19/2014 7:40:19 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Advanced weather is ON, not OFF. I feel this is needed to add some degree of uncertainty in air operations. I know some don't like weather to influence major events like CV vs CV, but it was important back then. I see it now when they don't fly to a base or when "Severe Storms' shows up and most of my bombers cause very little damage.

I think the number of HRs are pretty small. There will be very few that effect day to day operations.

_____________________________


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 12
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/19/2014 7:54:06 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I have a modified list of cargo capacity for majot Allied transports.

quote:

Cargo Classes

Type....Class..........Capacity...Speed...Endurance...Where
xAK.....Transmarine.....0/2133.....12......11000.......WC to Pearl
xAK.....Harriman........0/3500.....12......14900.......USA
xAK.....Isthmian........0/3200.....12......13600.......USA
xAK.....Hog Island......0/3267.....12......14700.......USA
xAK.....Luckenbach......0/4240.....12......16600.......USA
xAK.....Pacifc L........0/2600.....12......12000.......Convert to xAP…USA
xAK.....Dominion M......0/3700.....13......14600.......Convert to xAP…USA
xAK.....Southwest.......0/4273.....14......13200.......USA
xAK.....C1-A Cargo......0/3033.....14......19300.......Convert to xAP in 2/42

AK......C2 Arcturus.....0/4133.....16......10750.......USA
xAK.....C2 Cargo.......0/3733/100..16......13500.......Convert to xAP in 2/42
xAK.....C3-E Cargo.....0/3760/200..17......15600.......USA
xAK.....Euro L.........0/5053/200..17......14000.......USA
xAK.....Empire L.......0/5067/200..17......13670.......USA

xAK.....Pacific M........0/1933....12.......6000.......Abadan to India
xAK.....Dominion L.......0/4267....12......16800.......Cape Town to…
xAK.....Euro M...........0/2783....14......12300.......Cape Town to….
xAK.....Euro K.........0/3733/100..14......17900.......Cape Town to

xAK.....Fr-M.............185/2310..11.......9600.......SoPac


_____________________________


(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 13
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/19/2014 8:05:59 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		The third list is my fuel transporters. Some are the faster xAKs that have a liquid capacity are used here as Allies tend to be short of fuel, not supplies at the front areas. I group mine by speed.

quote:

FUEL: Ships to Move It

Type...Class........Capacity...Spd...Where
TK.....Sun Type H....6650......12....Abadon to India
TK.....ETC Type-M....5190......12....Abadon to India

TK.....BTC Type-L....8075......14....Abadon to Cape Town
TK.....BP Type-D.....10800.....14....Abadon to Cape Town

TK.....Federal Type-E..9430....14....Cape Town to Perth

AO.....Patoka.........9820.....11....USA to…
xAK..EC2 Liberty Cargo..0/6250/500..12..USA to…
AO.....Kanawha........7850.....13....USA to…

AO.....Admlty/Dale AO..10150...14....USA to…
TK.....T2-SE-A ........14250...14....USA to…
xAK....Euro K......0/5600/200..14....USA to…

AO.....Kennebec........12950...16....USA to …
TK.....Shell Type-A....12650...16....USA to …
TK.....Esso Type-T.....14025...16....USA to …
xAK....C2-T Cargo..0/5600/300..16....USA to …

AO ....Neosho..........14950...16....Follow CVs

xAK....Euro L......0/7580/550..17....USA to …
xAK....C3-S Cargo..0/7010/500..17....USA to …
xAK....C3-E Cargo..0/5600/300..17....USA to …


_____________________________


(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 14
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/19/2014 8:08:16 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I can send anybody the three lists (Free Troops, Cargo, and Fuel) if they drop me a PM as I have them all on one Excel spreadsheet. Also have it without the reduced cargo capacity (yes, my OCD-ness is flairing up).

_____________________________


(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 15
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/20/2014 12:47:58 AM   
topeverest


Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline 		I rarely catch on of these at the beginning. I will do my best to follow. My job sometimes takes me away, but that is what it is.

As a recent transplant to Houston, all cowboy's fans must be punitively punished!

With more empire airpower early, it will be more risky to engage the KB. I am curious what you know about his play style and what he would do with the extra naval power.

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 16
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/20/2014 2:20:42 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Pulled up his AAR vs Cuttlefish to refresh my memories. Will have to re-read it all to gain perspective. Don't see him over extending and see him trying to counter punch what i do in 43 to maintain his edge. I wonder if the extra ships at start will get him to try to do more.

_____________________________


(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 17
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/20/2014 1:27:38 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I sent this email to John 3rd and Dwain this morning as we move forward to getting BTS mod completed. Please let me and/or John know if you have any comments on it either here or in Mod section of forum.

quote:

Gentlemen,

Maybe its because I'm re-reading Tom Clancy novels and happen to be reading "Debt of Honor" with Japan being sneaky again, but I wanted both of you to see some additional thoughts I have and what we have in the "Treaty Mod" and from "Reluctant Admiral" (version 6.7 as Symon didn't reorganize the Japanese fleet into KB-1, 2, & 3).

Reluctant Admiral 6.7

JAPAN:
KB-1 @ Etofofu
CV Akagi (75) - 24 Z, 27V, 27K
CV Kaga (81) - 27Z, 27V, 27K
CVL Ryujo (39) - 21Z, 18K
CS Chiyoda (24 FPs)
BB Hiei & Kirishima; CL, 7 DD

KB-2 @ Etorofu
CV Zuikaku (72) - 24Z, 24V, 24K
CV Shokaku (72) - 24Z, 24V, 24K
CVL Zuiho (31) - 18Z, 12K
CA Tone & Chikuma; CL, 7 DD

KB-3 @ Babeldoab
CV Hiryu (69) - 21Z, 24V, 24K
CV Soryu (63) - 21Z, 21V, 21K
CVL Shoho (31) - 18Z, 12K
BB Kongo & Haruna; 6DD

CVEs @ Saipan
CVE Taiyo (27) - 15Z, 12V
CVE Hosho (18) - 12Z, 6K
CL, 3 DD

BBs
@ Saipan - Ise & Hyuga
@ Pescadore - Fuso & Yamashiro
@ Cam Rahn Bay - Mutsu & Nagato

ALLIES:
CV Enterprise @ 167,107 (6 NE of Johnson) - 23 WC, 37 SBD, 15 Dev
3 CA & 9 DD

CV Lexington @ 150,158 (3 NE Pago Pago) - 22 Buff, 36 SBD, 12 Dev
3 CA & 8 DD

CVL Charlotte @ Darwin - 12 Buff, 12 SBD-1 with CA, 3 DD

BBs
@ Pearl - Miss, NM, Idaho, Tenn, Cal, Penn, AZ, Okla, Nev
@ Seattle - Colo, Wash, Warspite (all damaged and need repairs)
@ Alameda - Mary, W Va (all damaged and need repairs)

Treaty Mod:

JAPAN:
Mini-KB @ Babeldoab
CVL Ryujo (48) - 12 Claude, 12 Kate
CVL Zuiho (30) - 12 Claude, 9 Kate
CVL Ryukaku (27) - 18Z, 9K
4 CA, 6 DD

@ Hiroshima -
CVE Hosho (20) - 9 Claude, 6 Jean
CVE Ibuki (20) - 9 Claude, 6 Madel
BB Nagato, Mutsu, Fuso, Yamashiro, Ise, Hyuga
CS Chiyoda

@ Cam Rahn Bay -
CVL Tokachi (24) - 15 Claude, 6 Mabel, 3 Jean
CVL Kushiro (24) - 15 Claude, 6 Mabel, 3 Jean
CA Hirado & Suzuka

BC Ishitaka with KB (Amagi Class)


ALLIES:
CV Lexington @ 156,107 (10 NW of Johnson) - 27 Buff, 36 SBD, 15 Dev, 18 Vind
2 CA Burlington & Rome, 7 DD

CV Saratoga @ San Diego - 27WC, 18 Buff, 36 SBD, 15 Dev
2 CA, 6 DD

@ Vaitupu (Ellis Islands) - Scouting Force
CVL Charlotte - (18) - 12 Buff, 6 SBD
CVL Jacksonville (18) - 12 Buff, 6 SBD
BC Constellation & Ranger
2 CA, 6 DD

@ Aukland - CVL Wellington (15) - 9 Buff, 6 Sword

@ Sydney - CVL Melbourne (15) - 9 Buff, 6 Sword


Between the Storm - proposals
1) RA ship placement and TF composition takes precedent over Treaty placement. Case in point would be the Japanese BBs at Hiroshima being dispersed per RA.
2) Ships highlighted in RED are the new ones for Treaty. Those for Japan at CRB and American Scouting Force don't change.
3) Where does CVL Ryukaku, CVE Ibuki, and BC Ishitaku go??
4) CV Lexington TF starts at historical position with TF changes per Treaty. SoPac is already strong enough with the Scouting Force and the two new hybrids at Sydney and Aukland.
5) Scouting Force remains at Vaitupu and CVL Charlotte ends up here (with reduced air capacity) vs Darwin.
6) AMC Raiders that start at 187,173 (17 ENE Tahiti) in stock come back. The two Aikoku Maru Class (Aikoku & Hokoku) may have a second pair start in general area (need to create). These can be serious raiders into Allied transports headed to USA from Australia/NZ and/or those coming out of USA. Thus, an Allied player may need to either escort his transports more heavily and/or use those two hybrid CVLs (Melbourne & Wellington) to hunt for them. They are also valuable xAPs for Japan after upgrade/conversion in 2/42. Decisions for both sides!!
7) Move CL Adelaide from Port Moresby to Aukland. This will give CVL two CLs as escorts.
8) Move 2 or 3 subs from Hawaii to off Aukland.
9) Reduce the number of Val or Kates by 3 for each heavy Japanese CV. Add a 3 plane Chutai of Recon that upgrade to the Judy-C in '42. John and I have talked about a Kate variant to perform this role at start. The Americans already have dedicated CV capable recon coming in mid-42.

Dwain - I'm going to post this in my AAR and suggest that you do the same so we can get feedback before we start as many players don't visit the Mod Section of the forum.

John - Did I miss any new ships??

I'll be out of town for the next three days for training.

Thanks,
Michael


Thoughts??


< Message edited by ny59giants -- 7/20/2014 2:29:33 PM >

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(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 18
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/20/2014 2:04:36 PM   
topeverest


Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline 		AM I reading this right, allies get 4 CVE extra, 2BC, and 2 CA's to counter the empire adds, and the empire economy starts thinner? Am I missing something here, but this sounds like a better allies start.

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 19
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/20/2014 2:19:43 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		It is. There are another pair of modern American CLs added as well as eight more DDs and--best of all--CVL King's Mountain. The two American CLVs and the Aussie/NZ CAV are fascinating ships that have small air complements and decent cruiser armament. They are fun little ships that can be quickly converted into CV/CVLs

A lot people truly irritate me thinking that RA is JFB wet dream. There is truth in that when we began but there has been a serious move towards making things much more balanced with RA 5.0 on. The Mod still tilts strongly towards the Japanese but most of their major Kaigun additions show up in 1943.

The Allies have gained in all sorts of things. Not shown here is the French Naval, Air, and Ground units in New Caledonia and Tahiti. The Brits start with several Hurricane Squadrons in Malaya/Burma. The Asiatic Fleet is reinforced with a CA, CL, and 4 modern DDs. China has Forts raised so NEITHER side can quickly take out the other. China should not have been easy for ANYONE to quickly take on either side.

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 7/20/2014 4:18:10 PM >

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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 20
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/20/2014 2:34:11 PM   
topeverest


Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline 		very interesting what if. I expect roughly generic results, subject to player skill and luck.

I've always thought the empire's decision on airframe types and capabilities was equally or more impactful to their ship typing with the effects starting at the end of 42. I am toying with the idea of a historical start but early airframe upgrades like a true medium and heavy bomber, and fighters to compete. It wouldn't have violated any treaty I am aware of and would be within historical production capabilities.

Anyway, food for thought.

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Andy M

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 21
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/20/2014 2:34:13 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		If you're not familiar with RA, here is what you will see in BTS plus those listed in RED in recent post from Treaty mod. Japan gets some extra toys, but with the Allies getting a few of their own, John and I hope that there will be more action in 42 and 43 with Japan having more staying power throughout the war (notice the increased number of Shokaku Class CVs in 43). These series of mods are focused on the naval side mainly for both sides.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 7/20/2014 5:02:28 PM >

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(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 22
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/20/2014 3:00:28 PM   
topeverest


Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline 		I'm not too familiar with RA, as I am embroiled in my own longstanding PBEM mod that wont end until sometime next year. It's a very interesting scenario. I will be curious if the empire chooses decisive battle or attritional warfare as the allied strength begins coming in.


_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 23
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/20/2014 3:15:33 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Cribtop shall be an interesting opponent. About a month after this game starts he and I are squaring off in the same Mod where he will play the Allies. Should be a bunch of fun.


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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 24
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/20/2014 5:19:59 PM   
Mike McCreery


Posts: 4232
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline 		I should just stick to this AAR so I can give you my help...

Ok, that even gave me a chuckle!!

Good Luck!

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(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 25
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/21/2014 6:32:39 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Just Posted this over in Cribtop's AAR:

GREAT NEWS. I just got RA 7.0 finished. Juan has already done his off-map aircraft upgrades done so it is finished.

This means I have a real chance of having Between the Storms READY by Tuesday. You boys will be able to RUMBLE at that point.


BANZAI!


_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to Mike McCreery)
Post #: 26
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/21/2014 7:48:17 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 27
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/21/2014 9:43:53 PM   
Xilana

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 5/7/2012
Status: offline 		One to watch, subscribed!

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 28
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/22/2014 3:18:44 AM   
DOCUP


Posts: 3073
Joined: 7/7/2010
Status: offline 		Count me in.

(in reply to Xilana)
Post #: 29
RE: NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs Cribtop (J) - ... - 7/25/2014 11:39:42 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		To avoid the 'dreaded' page 2, I'll post a short note.

Right now I'm thinking about having the hybrid CLV/CAV/CVLs be added to each of the 5 American heavy CVs. There are four at start with a fifth (CVL King's Mountain) coming in with CV Yorktown at end of Dec 41. Anybody who has followed some of my posting knows that I will place a 18 plane Marine fighter group on my American CVs (except Wasp) through most of 42. In July 42, the American CV fighter groups expand to 36 planes. Add in the 36 SBD and 15 Avengers and you get 87. Too much to keep the 18 plane Marine groups. However, I can switch the Marines over to the hybrids which often can hold just 18 planes and take off their two groups (12 fighters and 6 SBD). The 12 plane fighters can go to the CVs and I'll keep the 36 plane newly expanded groups short a few. Right now, I could keep them all and have the total be 99 planes. I'll keep the total 2 to 4 below the 110% level. My word for 42 for CVs is Survivability!!

For those unfamiliar with RA and now BTS, the Allies can convert some AV and AKVs to CVEs which I do.

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(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 30
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