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OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 6:12:44 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Was it a SAM

295, Including several from my country, died because people will never learn. **** every single man or woman who attacks the innocent. Idiots...

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
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Post #: 1
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 6:36:20 PM   
CowboyRonin


Posts: 360
Joined: 8/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Was it a SAM

295, Including several from my country, died because people will never learn. **** every single man or woman who attacks the innocent. Idiots...


SAM is the current story.

I think your last comment may be the most cogent. This certainly feels to me more like an act of stupidity than terrorism. Neither side has anything to gain by shooting down an airliner. However, there are likely a lot if SAM batteries in the area, and it just takes one idiot with launch authority to decide that a track is a hostile air transport, rather than an airliner, to cause a tragedy like this.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 2
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:05:06 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Terrible case of mistaken identity. A couple of Ukrainian air force transports have been shot down like this recently, and some SAM commander saw this radar track and thought he was looking at another one.

KAL 007, anyone?

< Message edited by Terminus -- 7/17/2014 8:05:38 PM >

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:07:00 PM   
Erkki


Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		BBC newsfeed:

19:00: A tweet (in Russian) from a key Twitter account used by pro-Russian separatists, in which they claim to have captured a Buk surface-to-air missile system, has now been deleted, BBC Monitoring observes. Ukrainians say the Malaysian plane could have been downed with a Buk, but pro-Russian rebels have now denied they have it

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 4
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:09:37 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		There's one thing which is absolutely certain right now. Nobody knows ANYTHING that they're telling the news media, and said news media are speculating until their ears droop.

But yeah, an SA-11 would definitely do it.

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Post #: 5
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:13:21 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		But if it were so, how did these seperatist militiamen fire this missile? It's not exactly an AK.

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 6
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:27:04 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		As it is a warzone: I expect the truth to die together with the innocent...

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 7
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:30:39 PM   
CowboyRonin


Posts: 360
Joined: 8/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

But if it were so, how did these seperatist militiamen fire this missile? It's not exactly an AK.


Which is why I think it is more likely that it was a a "mistaken identity" shoot than a militia shoot. Now, it's not impossible that some technically competent folks have defected to the separatists, especially since the pre-breakup folks would have been trained in Russia. However, that involves more assumptions, and I also don't see what they get by shooting down an airliner. If they really did it, they would have added significant support to Ukraine and the rest of the world would name them criminals and terrorists. Russia would have to distance themselves publicly, or face even more sanctions.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 8
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:36:13 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		It was also mistaken identity if it were one of the separatist militias. Nobody has any interest in doing this.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 7/17/2014 8:43:40 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:38:55 PM   
Erkki


Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		Apparently one of the separatist leaders, Igor Strelkov, had tweeted something like "we told you to not enter out airspace" only minutes after the disappearance of the flight. That tweet is, unsurprisingly, now gone:

Also see https://twitter.com/StateOfUkraine/status/489802664264212480/photo/1

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 10
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:43:14 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		When it's celebrities and companies who don't understand how Twitter works, it's amusing. This has a somewhat different flavour.

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Post #: 11
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:44:43 PM   
Erkki


Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		And comments like these...

Lazy Glossophiliac @Glossophiliac75 · 3 t
@Rulamark @StateOfUkraine It might have been led into the war zone by a CIA op and then shot there by Ukrs. Cui bono points to that.

Lazy Glossophiliac @Glossophiliac75 · 3 t
@Rulamark @StateOfUkraine Donbass air space has been closed to civ aircraft for a while.

From Moscow with conspiracies. I wonder if she/he can make a living with that.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 12
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:49:49 PM   
Erkki


Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline


(in reply to Erkki)
Post #: 13
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:55:03 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It was also mistaken identity if it were one of the separatist militias. Nobody has any interest in doing this.


How do you mistake an airliner cruising @ 30k for a potential military target? Vodka?

I am not so sure about this being an error.

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Post #: 14
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:57:58 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Oh, the shooting was deliberate, no doubt. They just thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian military airplane.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 15
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 8:02:45 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		Everyone will blame everyone else. All down to Putin in the end (IMO).

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 16
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 8:08:02 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		You could of course be right, bit I am still unconvinced the target selection was not deliberate.

None of the military transports were cruising @30k over the Donezk area. No plane with a military purpose in that area does. If they did not notice anything fishy about the target they were real morons.

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Post #: 17
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 8:29:33 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Yes, the target selection was deliberate. AGAIN. It was a blip on a screen, looked at by a bunch of armed civilians.

It's happened before, many times. Remember the Vincennes? Or, as I stated earlier, KAL 007.

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Post #: 18
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 8:30:29 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Who is the silly bugger routing Airliners over a combat zone???

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Post #: 19
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 8:52:38 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Press conference just held in the Netherlands. 45 nationality not yet established. At least 154 from the Netherlands, about two dozen from Malaysia and a mix of other European, North American and Asian countries

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 20
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 9:07:42 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		We are hearing 27 Australians.

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Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

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Post #: 21
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 9:13:48 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Ok, they might be part of the 45 that were not yet released.. Think they are really trying to contact all the next of kin first. Ofcourse the only decent thing to do..

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 22
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 9:31:50 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/sophisticated-surface-air-buk-missile-launcher-suspected-malaysian-205340310.html

"(...) the Buk's radar doesn't give its operator the same kind of information that air traffic radars provide, which could have led to rebels mistakenly targeting a civilian plane.
"The sophisticated air traffic radars that the Kyiv government have got and that the Russian government have got would pick up these civilian aircraft squawking all the time saying 'I'm a civilian,'" he said. "But something like a Buk missile launcher with its own battlefield radar would probably only pick up an aircraft and not pick up the fact it was a civilian aircraft."

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 23
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 11:14:34 PM   
btbw

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 11/1/2011
Status: offline 		I hope no one from our forum dont flight here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuX6rEOjyqA
Here screen from russian tv channel LifeNews about downed by separatists AN-26.

Here speech of one russian politican (putin's creature for propaganda against Ukraine) which currently one of chief od separatists. He talking about repair captured SA-11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxVZvh9YScU

Here SA-11 left Toresa city (where Boeing was crashed) after incident.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_WKydOzVWI

Enough info about

< Message edited by btbw -- 7/18/2014 12:14:57 AM >

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 24
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 11:19:03 PM   
btbw

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 11/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

And comments like these...

Lazy Glossophiliac @Glossophiliac75 · 3 t
@Rulamark @StateOfUkraine It might have been led into the war zone by a CIA op and then shot there by Ukrs. Cui bono points to that.

Lazy Glossophiliac @Glossophiliac75 · 3 t
@Rulamark @StateOfUkraine Donbass air space has been closed to civ aircraft for a while.

From Moscow with conspiracies. I wonder if she/he can make a living with that.

Flight Zone around Donetzk dont closed for civil aircrafts with alt higher then 7800m. Boeing flown on 10000m.
Alot of planes passed that area befor and some after. Now they avoid area.

< Message edited by btbw -- 7/18/2014 12:19:33 AM >

(in reply to Erkki)
Post #: 25
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 11:22:15 PM   
btbw

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 11/1/2011
Status: offline 		Flight zone dont closed. Separatists dont had SAM better then Stinger with alt up to 5000m. But SA-11 which captured and repaired by separatists (or swaped on new from Russia side) can strike any planes.

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 26
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 11:49:27 PM   
btbw

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 11/1/2011
Status: offline 		Torez city
SA-11 in Torez city



< Message edited by btbw -- 7/18/2014 12:50:28 AM >

(in reply to btbw)
Post #: 27
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/18/2014 1:29:30 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Who is the silly bugger routing Airliners over a combat zone???



Is it "officially" considered a combat zone. Not speaking from a common sense POV (aka....OMG armed groups B Here) but from a geo-political stance. Has Ukraine issued warnings that it's airspace is contested to the point where advisories were issued to major airlines?




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Post #: 28
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/18/2014 1:39:02 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		From what I've heard most airlines who normally fly over the Ukraine have been diverting their flights. Apparently Malaysia Airlines decided not to do that.

This has been a difficult year for Malaysia Airlines 777 fleet.

Bill

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(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 29
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/18/2014 2:24:07 AM   
btbw

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 11/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

From what I've heard most airlines who normally fly over the Ukraine have been diverting their flights. Apparently Malaysia Airlines decided not to do that.

This has been a difficult year for Malaysia Airlines 777 fleet.

Bill

No restriction for flight over Donbass except air traffic service routine echelon higher then 7900m. All warning from FAA talking about Crimea area.
Before incident.

< Message edited by btbw -- 7/18/2014 4:13:54 AM >

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 30
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