Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

But now comes the addition i don´t think is ok. It is the training mission intercept thing. In my current example i swept Akyab by 2 Sentai,
had LRCAP over the target and added parts of two other Sentais as escort.
At Akyab a few Hurricanes were on training missions. Off course they EVADED my sweeps and off course the attacked my alone flying bombers.
Out of 4 groups of Helens i lost 35 Bombers against 16 Hurricanes.
Yes, this happens sometimes. As far as I know it is not a guaranteed thing. The trainers might not engage. If you think your opponent is trying to take advantage of the situation I suggest you talk to him about houserules

The extreme high efficiency of CAP makes these things even harder. Not long ago i slaughtered 35 allied carrier planes by only 24 A6M3a (it is 09/43)
without own losses. Small escort though. Two weeks earlier i lost 65 (about 50% fighters were escorts) CV planes in a similar way against allied CAP,
which lost only 2 planes this day. These extreme black and white results are imho not good and not realistic and i really wonder that not much more players complain
about this.
Your not really telling us the whole story. What was the number of CAP up? What was the CAP/escort ratio? I'll give you a couple of examples

Morning Air attack on TF, near Gasmata at 104,126

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 75 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 29 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 76

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 71
SBD-3 Dauntless x 113
TBF-1 Avenger x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 3 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 7 destroyed, 26 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 2 destroyed by flak
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Number of escorts match the CAP. Acceptable losses to the allied bombers and about equal losses escort/CAP

Morning Air attack on TF, near Milne Bay at 101,132

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 38
B5N1 Kate x 6
B5N2 Kate x 40
D3A1 Val x 45

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 6
F4F-4 Wildcat x 111

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 2 destroyed
B5N1 Kate: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 14 destroyed, 5 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Val: 33 destroyed
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 3 destroyed

CAP outnumbers escorts. The escorts still do a decent job (experience probably) but are not able to screen bombers.. Result is slaughter

quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

I´m in a scenario 2 PBEM using one of the last betas and i´m more and more frustrated by some things the engine is doing.
A while ago the engine was modified to make coordinated strikes much harder. It is more or less luck to have bombers escorted.
and raids are mostly splitted. Each bomber group is flying alone and not together even flying from same base and using same altitude.
Up to this point it is ok.
But now comes the addition i don´t think is ok. It is the training mission intercept thing. In my current example i swept Akyab by 2 Sentai,
had LRCAP over the target and added parts of two other Sentais as escort.
At Akyab a few Hurricanes were on training missions. Off course they EVADED my sweeps and off course the attacked my alone flying bombers.
Out of 4 groups of Helens i lost 35 Bombers against 16 Hurricanes.
So why sweeps can´t catch training missions ??? The other way it is allowed. Actually the allied player can use this feature to have a CAP that only picks unescorted
bombers. All he has to do is to put his fighters on training.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote
Escort is only trading fighters for bombers, you should make sure to sweep the base before. If you can't get a decent escort compare to what you usually meet during the sweep just don't send the raid.

quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

IMHO this is WAD. P47D2 and F6F3 are formidable, and generally speaking (IMHO) superior air frames to the Zero 3A. I believe the results are within the possible expected outcomes - and more on the likely side as the game ventures deeper into 1943. Good outcomes in these kinds of engagements hinge on coordination, weather, commanders, altitude, pilot skill, and airframe types.



Generally speaking, CAP is quite effective breaking through escorts, but as we all know 'Bombers almost always get through'

quote:

Now where did you get those nifty screens? Are those done outside the game or are there modded in game?

quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote
Escort is only trading fighters for bombers, you should make sure to sweep the base before. If you can't get a decent escort compare to what you usually meet during the sweep just don't send the raid.

interesting idea, but works only if the opponent doesn´t have half of his fighters on training which go active as soon as a unescorted bomber arrives.....

quote:

The training mission should not be able to pick their targets and avoid escorts and sweeps.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Has been discussed hundreds of times over the years already.

Training misison intercepts are one of several reasons why to better use escorts (at least in addition to LRCAP/Sweep). Training missions are on average much less potent than genuine CAP, in addition the intercept probability is much lower. So if strikes are coordinated properly, training mission setting is the worse choice. If not then thats the fault of the attacker, not gamey play by the defender.

The coordination guide applies even more post beta than it did before. Same base of origin, same a/c type, high morale and high fatigue are definitely not enough to ensure coordination. Also, it is always the relative number of bomber vs. escort that counts towards a well protected raid. Low number of escorts (for example because a player assigns LRCAP instead escort missions) do not result in failed coordination rolls, but rather prevent the escorts from successfully covering the complete strike.

quote:

Now where did you get those nifty screens? Are those done outside the game or are there modded in game?

Numdydar, thats the standard ingame Plane & Weapon DB view. Please don�t tell me after all those years you did not notice it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
ROFL if I did I no longer remember it (Just like a lot of other things ) I actually never looked Once I got tracker going I never bother to use those screens any more.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

As LoBaron points out, this has well and truly been explained before in great detail.  Read this thread

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3244889&mpage=1&key=training%2Cintercept�

closely, paying attention to the very detailed posts I made (#3, 9 and 17) and the linked thread provided in post #3.

Some of the outrageous claims made now just have to be addressed briefly now.

1.  Training flights do not, repeat do not, intentionally avoid enemy sweeps and then in the same phase intentionally seek out unescorted enemy bombers to engage.

2.  Training flights intentionally attempt to avoid all, repeat avoid all, combat.

3.  When enemy planes operate at the same altitude that the training flight is operating at, there is a chance that the training flight can not avoid combat.

4.  Combat Reports never tell the full story.  They do not provide 100% accuracy in detailing aircraft losses.  They do not split the information into what occurred before the ordnance delivery and what occurred after the ordnance delivery.  They don't indicate whether all the escorting fighters were present ab initio, or as is not uncommon some of the escorting fighters joined the melee in dribs and drabs.  Some of the text messages are just string text which requires interpretation to be of any value.

5.  Because of point 4 above it is never, repeat never, adequate to skip watching the combat animation in full and at a viewable pace, if one wants to really understand what transpired.  And yet time after time there are players who do not bother to watch the animation.  When they combine that failure with the usual failure to read closely what is contained in the combat report, the usual outcome is that the rest of us are assailed with outrageous claims.

Alfred