RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/22/2014 3:37:57 PM

Icemania

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From: Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile
I started a new game, but "unfortunately" everything is working well.

Icemania, I'm so disappointed in you, I expected more bugs.

My apologies.

I expected a casual part-time effort, at my least productive time of day, after long working hours, using a bunch of parameters that have little or no explanation in the Modding Guide, would lead to many bugs.

If I actually worked in the gaming industry, where many have lost the plot on quality control, I can assure you I would have met your lofty expectations.

And if I actually worked in some other parts of the gaming industry, I would thank my colleagues, who have helpfully pointed out some of my mistakes, by banning them, deleting their posts and labelling them as ungrateful and entitled.

End Rant. Normal service shall now resume.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/22/2014 4:55:34 PM >

(in reply to ParagonExile)

Post #: 241

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/22/2014 3:43:26 PM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
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From: Australia
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Now, if that doesn't motivate you lot to find the bugs, nothing will. I'm sure they are there, it's an Alpha.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 242

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/22/2014 3:56:43 PM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
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From: Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile
Icemania, I'm so disappointed in you, I expected more bugs.

Didn't you get them with the upgraded Shakturi?

(in reply to ParagonExile)

Post #: 243

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/22/2014 4:27:25 PM

Skasski

Posts: 18
Joined: 10/12/2013
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Will this mod also improve auto-designs of player empires if players set ship and base design to be automated?

Can/will this mod change station designs to remove obsolete (fuel)storage from starbases, as planets already provide infinite storage and only one module is needed for the design warning to go away? (and maybe similar things if they exist)

(in reply to Cauldyth)

Post #: 244

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/22/2014 10:16:50 PM

sayke

Posts: 15
Joined: 8/26/2013
Status: offline

quote:

If I actually worked in the gaming industry, where many have lost the plot on quality control, I can assure you I would have met your lofty expectations.

And if I actually worked in some other parts of the gaming industry, I would thank my colleagues, who have helpfully pointed out some of my mistakes, by banning them, deleting their posts and labelling them as ungrateful and entitled.

Bahahaha - I just wanted to say that this was awesome =D

< Message edited by sayke -- 7/22/2014 11:21:46 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 245

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/23/2014 7:44:44 AM

Syntax

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Joined: 7/22/2014
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original posted by Isemania: "My apologies.

I expected a casual part-time effort, at my least productive time of day, after long working hours, using a bunch of parameters that have little or no explanation in the Modding Guide, would lead to many bugs.

If I actually worked in the gaming industry, where many have lost the plot on quality control, I can assure you I would have met your lofty expectations.

And if I actually worked in some other parts of the gaming industry, I would thank my colleagues, who have helpfully pointed out some of my mistakes, by banning them, deleting their posts and labelling them as ungrateful and entitled".

WOW - what a great phrase, now thats what I call an declarative answer!!!!

I have implemented your mod in my game: - so far so good.....will give u feedback as I play a bit more...

Thank u for the long needed modification...

< Message edited by Syntax -- 7/23/2014 8:47:15 AM >

(in reply to sayke)

Post #: 246

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/23/2014 9:04:22 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skasski
Will this mod also improve auto-designs of player empires if players set ship and base design to be automated?

Absolutely. I've played most of my test games with Ship and Base Design automated to check how the AI applies the improved templates. On Default, I find Automatic frustrating to watch so I play full micro. However, in my Extreme difficulty test game I left the Ship/Base Design, Research and Exploration on Automatic. I could then play at 4X speed with very little pausing and found it really fun.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skasski
Can/will this mod change station designs to remove obsolete (fuel)storage from starbases, as planets already provide infinite storage and only one module is needed for the design warning to go away? (and maybe similar things if they exist)

All of the Ship and Base designs have already been optimised. That said, I'm sure further improvements could be made, suggestions are welcome. Indeed I haven't tested the one fuel cell design idea ... although Spaceports have no cargo bays.

Please just keep in mind that there is no conditional logic in the templates so I can't emulate what I actually do in-game. That said, it's worked out a lot better than what I expected when starting this mod, partly with the 1.9.5.6 changes that help with the Military Ship shrinkage issues.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/23/2014 10:05:06 AM >

(in reply to Skasski)

Post #: 247

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/23/2014 9:08:07 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Syntax
I have implemented your mod in my game: - so far so good.....will give u feedback as I play a bit more...

Your feedback is very welcome.

Post release I'll fix whatever comes up as well and I'm more than happy to help others who are applying this to other mods.

(in reply to Syntax)

Post #: 248

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/23/2014 10:27:33 AM

Sirian

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Joined: 11/29/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
And if I actually worked in some other parts of the gaming industry, I would thank my colleagues, who have helpfully pointed out some of my mistakes, by banning them, deleting their posts and labelling them as ungrateful and entitled.

Oh, yes, there are people out there with 'zero' social skills.

_____________________________

Visit Sirian's Mods

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 249

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/23/2014 11:52:53 AM

spiralaxis

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Random thought: What if "All Weapons" was changed rom "80% of Max range" to "Range at which you get 80% of Max damage"?

I had always assumed All Weapons meant "Within the range of your shortest-ranged weapon".

< Message edited by spiralaxis -- 7/23/2014 12:53:36 PM >

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Post #: 250

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/23/2014 3:49:54 PM

Icemania

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For Torpedoes or Missiles, I want the AI to stay outside of the range of Short Range Weapons, so All Weapons (default) is good as is. If they were forced to go in a lot closer, which is what 80% of Max Damage implies, that advantage would be lost.

Keep in mind most of the races in this mod are single weapon focused so "within the range of your shorted-ranged weapon" is a selection of one. By researching too many weapons, AI weapon research is not competitive enough. The benefits of a second weapon have to be significant to justify them.

(in reply to spiralaxis)

Post #: 251

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/23/2014 8:51:41 PM

sayke

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Icemania - Quick point of clarification: Without the v1.9.5.6 patch, ship scaling concerns make this unusable on very expensive research configurations, right?

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Post #: 252

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/24/2014 3:50:51 AM

Tcby

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EXAMS OVER. can't wait to settle down to this after work..

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Post #: 253

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/24/2014 6:59:14 AM

xepooqu80

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Hi Icemania!
Lot of progress :)

Some observation from the game with latest version and 1.9.6 playing securan, normal start
- The cruiser design becomes available at 300 and at 400 size but it has either no weapon or 1 epsilon torpedo. I saw in the template there should be 2 fighters bay but they are not added in the shrinken design -> the ship is completely useless
- I got a CTD (screenshot attached)

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 254

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/24/2014 8:12:52 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sayke
Icemania - Quick point of clarification: Without the v1.9.5.6 patch, ship scaling concerns make this unusable on very expensive research configurations, right?

There were two shrinkage related issues with 1.9.5.5:

1. Military ships are quite often shrunk excessively, leading to ships with no weapons, or very few weapons. That looks to have been resolved with 1.9.5.6 before the crashes stopped my testing. This is a general observation on any research setting.

2. Civilian ships are not shrunk at all. My designs are Size 230 rather than Size 160 or less which leads to significant improvements in speed and extraction. So if you are playing Expensive Research or above, on a Prewarp Start, there will be a delay in building Civilian Ships until Space Construction research is complete. You can still play but it doesn't meet my goals with the Mod. This is on my developer support wishlist and I'm hopeful it will be considered. If this is not patched, I'll consider providing two editions of the Mod at release.

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Post #: 255

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/24/2014 8:15:12 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: acantoni
- The cruiser design becomes available at 300 and at 400 size but it has either no weapon or 1 epsilon torpedo. I saw in the template there should be 2 fighters bay but they are not added in the shrinken design -> the ship is completely useless

See the previous post. I'm hoping this will be fixed in Patch 1.9.5.6 thanks to support from Elliot and Erik.

quote:

ORIGINAL: acantoni
- I got a CTD (screenshot attached)

Please report this on Tech Support. I have no idea if it's related to this Mod or not. All I can say if that I've done everything that I can to follow the Modding Guide.

(in reply to xepooqu80)

Post #: 256

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/24/2014 4:09:12 PM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
1. Military ships are quite often shrunk excessively, leading to ships with no weapons, or very few weapons. That looks to have been resolved with 1.9.5.6 before the crashes stopped my testing. This is a general observation on any research setting.

The 1.9.5.6 Beta 2 looks to have resolved this. Please test it out.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 257

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/24/2014 4:38:50 PM

Retreat1970

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Pardon me if this has come up (quite a few posts to read through). I thought since this was an AI improvement mod I'd ask.

Will you be adjusting AI tax rates at all? The reason I ask is because growth (money) trumps all IMO. When I play a game in absence except for tax rates (manual) I always dominate by mid game. The AI tends to overtax, overspend, and overbuild which hampers growth. By keeping taxes low (I do 14% for the happiness bonus just my way) until pop is close to max, the AI seems to be quite happy living within it's means.

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Post #: 258

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/24/2014 4:55:17 PM

ParagonExile

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970

Pardon me if this has come up (quite a few posts to read through). I thought since this was an AI improvement mod I'd ask.

Will you be adjusting AI tax rates at all? The reason I ask is because growth (money) trumps all IMO. When I play a game in absence except for tax rates (manual) I always dominate by mid game. The AI tends to overtax, overspend, and overbuild which hampers growth. By keeping taxes low (I do 14% for the happiness bonus just my way) until pop is close to max, the AI seems to be quite happy living within it's means.

The values where the AI starts taxing are hard-coded, but Icemania made it so low and medium populations have zero taxes.

(in reply to Retreat1970)

Post #: 259

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/25/2014 7:01:34 AM

Tcby

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What do people think of the new racial biases? I like the idea of them being higher values, but I'm not totally keen on the bloc format. I'm concerned it may make galactic politics too predictable.

One of the goals behind Haree's extended races mod was to create more complex galactic situations. There are many races in his mod that have positive biases with races that would normally be in separate blocs in the vanilla game. One of the results of this approach is the increased likelihood of large scale, unpredictable wars. Choosing who to ally with is also a more difficult decision than in valilla. The Tairoshans are a good example of this, because they make friends with everybody and quickly form defense pacts and trade agreements with most races. In Haree's current livestream game, almost the whole galaxy is at war. The same war

. All it took was one opportunistic DOW for the whole thing to move into chaos.

Of course, the AI mod cannot implement this degree of complexity because the vanilla race pool is too low. What I'm more interested in is starting a discussion about what people like/dislike about current biases (high values that also somewhat ignore previous racial family bonuses), so that by the time this mod is being adapted to DWE, that process will be less complex.

As it stands now I enjoy the possibility of conflict that these values represent. Unfortunately in my most recent test game I played with too little automation, and so the AI empires are too scared to start wars with me in the middle of them all, a member of a couple defensive pacts and many times larger and more advanced

Next game will be almost fully automated with all races, so we'll see how that pans out.

Edit: side note: on normal research, planet quality, and difficulty, the Haakonish built the Traders bazaar in the 18th year of a prewarp start.

At that point the automated research pathing of the shandar had them sporting the holographic network and size ~900 carriers. Fun times.

< Message edited by Tcby -- 7/25/2014 10:27:01 AM >

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Post #: 260

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/25/2014 9:01:24 AM

Blackstork

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Hey Icemania, i might need your help with tweaking Ergreagd values for Beyond mod pack. I copied some values from other races but i am not sure this thing was right to do.
:)

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Post #: 261

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/25/2014 11:11:52 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970

Pardon me if this has come up (quite a few posts to read through). I thought since this was an AI improvement mod I'd ask.

Will you be adjusting AI tax rates at all? The reason I ask is because growth (money) trumps all IMO. When I play a game in absence except for tax rates (manual) I always dominate by mid game. The AI tends to overtax, overspend, and overbuild which hampers growth. By keeping taxes low (I do 14% for the happiness bonus just my way) until pop is close to max, the AI seems to be quite happy living within it's means.

The values where the AI starts taxing are hard-coded, but Icemania made it so low and medium populations have zero taxes.

Yes, there is not much more I can do.

With respect to overspending and overbuilding, a few other changes are worth mentioning. Firstly I found that on default some races underbuild (which makes them pathetic and easy to defeat) and some races overbuild (which cripples them). I've tried to balance out the extremes so there is still quite a natural variation between races. Secondly the AI massively overbuilds planetary facilities which I've changed as described in the OP.

Otherwise try the AI Improvement Mod on Extreme as you'll need a lot more than control over tax rates.

(in reply to ParagonExile)

Post #: 262

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/25/2014 11:26:55 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby
What do people think of the new racial biases? I like the idea of them being higher values, but I'm not totally keen on the bloc format. I'm concerned it may make galactic politics too predictable.

I'm not convinced either.

The reason for the higher values (as well as some changes to WarWillingness) is that in Vanilla I find it far too easy to play every game peacefully and just go to war when I feel like it ... completely predictable.

In some test games with the AI Improvement Mod the galaxy has just gone nuts, before I'm ready for it. In other games, as you say, you get lucky in the strongest alliance, and it's fairly peaceful. This is less predictable.

Other than the Insect races (you'll find one surprise in their bloc) all the other blocs here are a mix of racial groups. Some races will hate races in their own racial group, some races will love races in another racial group.

The problem is that the Biases are fixed ... either in Extended or here. There is no ability to randomly seed the Biases.

One option may be to reduce the size of the Positive Biases. But then there is less chance of races ganging up on you or your allies ...

Help!

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/25/2014 12:27:18 PM >

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Post #: 263

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/25/2014 11:29:06 AM

Icemania

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From: Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackstork

Hey Icemania, i might need your help with tweaking Ergreagd values for Beyond mod pack. I copied some values from other races but i am not sure this thing was right to do.
:)

I have no idea what Ergreadg values are but I'm happy to help. Please provide more information Blackstork.

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Post #: 264

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/25/2014 11:33:51 AM

Blackstork

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Ok i will share with you some WIP files in PM
i used some mix of Zenox/Dhayut/Mortalen Policy.

What i need from you is to build Policy file for them and Designs files.
For now after i put what i did AI refuses to build military ships at all :P

they have very strong troops, and probably go shields/torpedoes as main ship focus.
for all details of race, its bonuses etc please check in Beyond post explaining things 2nd post: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3657646
and also in files i will send to you
Thank You.

< Message edited by Blackstork -- 7/25/2014 12:34:26 PM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/25/2014 11:44:46 AM

Tcby

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From: Australia
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How about increasing the values that pertain to empire reputation? IIRC these values were not quite working as intended anyway, but it could be a blessing in disguise.

Allow me to explain:
I played a game some time ago with Haree's Banoserit race. An interesting thing about that race is that it was designed around a government type that had very high values in the two fields that determine how much your empire cares about your own reputation, and that of other empires. What I noticed was that my own population happiness was barely affected by my reputation. Poor reputation resulting in only -1 happiness, which is definitely not what was intended. On the flip side, one or two independent takeovers gave me a very large malus with every other race I'd met so far. Suddenly empires were cancelling free trade agreements, going from +20 to ~-20, etc.

The way I understand those two fields, they should not have an impact on how other empires view you (their opinion should be derived from that section in their own government file). But, it seems they do. If these values were increased for certain races we may see a greatly increased chance of war, without forcing players to have a slew of -60 diplomatic relationships purely due to race. Similarly, this could make pre-established agreements more tenous, leading to unpredictability.

As a side note, I think that the reason my own colonies were not experiencing a poor reputation hit was because the Banoserit government type 'Authoritarian Eugenics' has an exceptionally high stability rating. That value is only meant to affect espionage incited coups, but it's the only reason I can think of.

< Message edited by Tcby -- 7/25/2014 12:46:41 PM >

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Post #: 266

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/25/2014 11:44:49 AM

Icemania

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Ah thanks one of your new races.

If Torpedoes are the weapons focus then just copy the Kiadian Military Ships (and anything else you like) from my mod. Also have a look at the Kiadian Policy file. Basically I've put the fields I'm interested in changing on the right.

But still happy to look at the Policy files if that doesn't help.

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Post #: 267

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/25/2014 11:50:52 AM

Blackstork

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ive sent you details.
There are also new Immersion package at Alien Immersion mod for them.
I will prefer if you design their policy/design templates, i mean you can neglect completely policy/templates files in file package - just mind race flavor/theme/bonuses/specifics when if you design it from 0.
AI dont build military at all now and i dunno why.
Also i added assault pods tech but i think its reundant.. their style is more come with big fleet with alot of shields, and land troops - disengage - capture planet.
they use 2 complex mechanics - 1 is 3 different house goverments (included in files i sent) - in help folder there also some descritpions, and other is custom 250+ unique character system (something that been developed thanks to Ergie's programming genius :P) which is not ready yet.

< Message edited by Blackstork -- 7/25/2014 12:54:49 PM >

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Post #: 268

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/25/2014 12:03:30 PM

Icemania

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Blackstork, I've sent you a PM, but I see that you've publicly requested that I do the Design Templates and Policy files for you.

My next priority is to apply the AI Improvement Mod to Extended ... after I finish Vanilla. Please keep in mind I have not released the Mod yet, this is an Alpha.

After that I'll help do the AI for an integrated mega-mod team (e.g. say if you teamed up with Lurchi) but I'm not going to do it for multiple mods.

As mentioned above, since the Ergreagd, did you try copying the Kiadian Design Templates (Torpedo focused)? I'll review the Policy file you sent and comment publicly as it maybe useful for others.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/25/2014 1:03:55 PM >

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Post #: 269

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/25/2014 12:08:12 PM

Blackstork

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ive replied to you with answer :)

thanks

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Post #: 270