Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Not if the goal is strategic delay rather than "victory."

It's the two or three hexes deep along an entire line thing that I think is wrong and a wasted allocation of forces. Really, it's the concept of a line as an enormous defensive unit. My first/only attempt at installing SLs wasn't successful, but I intend to rectify this and if I can figure out how to set up a test game... I can quickly demonstrate, with the units available to both sides, exactly what I'm talking about.

That, or prove myself wrong.

Delay is all I'm after.

I finally see what you're up against here, but it seems you're basing this all on an assumption that a 'line' means two or three deep all along it's length. It certainly doesn't to me. Not sure why we're even having this discussion as I think we're advocating the exact same thing. You can look in my AAR and see good examples of this in the recent map I posted. Won't go farther into that here though.

This all started as I was trying to figure out exactly what Alfred's objections are to the defense in this game, not mine. I'm still interested in those specifics.

What is the correct concept if an MLR isn't it? Is MLR such a clearly defined term that it has to mean deep defense all along the line? I'm not a military historian so I may just be using a more specific term for a more vague concept myself. What is a better concept for Jocke in this game? Or for anyone playing the Allies in China?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  The Allied player is panicking.

2.  The MLR is a flawed concept used by Allied players in China.  Against a competent Japanese player who energetically prosecutes their offensive, it will always fail.

3.  The roadblocks were, and still are, not placed in the correct positions.

4.  The two recent Japanese successes at 85,39 and 86,41 are not important.

5.  Sian should be held with the strongest units, not with the weakest.

6.  A strategic reserve can still be created out of the many units occupying useless dirt in the countryside.

7.  Handled properly, Ankang is not the fatal dagger which it is being presented as.

Alfred 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Well, the mlr as Joc drew it will guarantee that the entire southern line is cut off from supply and and basically out of the game for a long time as it tries to move south.

I think defense in depth along the road, avenues of approach, make him fight each hex of the way dug in troops. And try to get some units threatening his line of supply. Trashed Chinese units head back, fresh ones perhaps forward, but make him fight heavily on the roads.

Defending Sian...tough, but I think the effort needs to be made if for no other reason than to slow the Japanese down. Tienshuie, north along the railway, can be built to a level 1 airbase allowing you to use fighters in Sian for CAP traps until the rail line is cut.

It is hard to keep the IJA supplied in this area. I would be looking to make the IJA eat as much supplies as possible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Page 2 save *whistles*

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Supply is pretty much already gone in most places. Every unit outside Chungking and Changha are already in the red.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Supply is pretty much already gone in most places. Every unit outside Chungking and Changha are already in the red.

Why is it so bad? The burma road is open, right?

Did you shut off all factory, resource, manpower repairs?

Did you limit very exclusively reinforcements? Are you stockpiling artillery pieces?

Did you ground most of your air force?

Are you building only very selective forts?

Are you resting all rear echelon troops?

I have to admit that I haven't had that problem like you have, but I have only played against AndyMac's nasty nasty Japanese and not another person, especially of the caliber of Mr. Kane. And I have no experience with this mod either, so I am probably all wet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Tough. It will be interesting to watch. Between your game and Obverts two wildly different China strategies.

I suspect there really isn't much you can do ultimately against a motivated Japan that wants China other than slow him down and perhaps take opportunities elsewhere as the opportunity presents.

quote:

Ground combat at 85,39 (near Sian)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 36979 troops, 266 guns, 733 vehicles, Assault Value = 1330

Defending force 22936 troops, 147 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 535

Japanese adjusted assault: 924

Allied adjusted defense: 195

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
670 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 70 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 5 (1 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Vehicles lost 16 (1 destroyed, 15 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
10342 casualties reported
Squads: 379 destroyed, 207 disabled
Non Combat: 383 destroyed, 47 disabled
Engineers: 14 destroyed, 10 disabled
Guns lost 45 (32 destroyed, 13 disabled)
Units retreated 4

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
17th Division
15th Tank Regiment
9th Tank Regiment
3rd Tank Regiment
8th Armored Car Co
5th Tank Regiment
10th Tank Regiment
6th Ind.Mixed Brigade
5th Armored Car Co
12th Tank Regiment
23rd Tank Regiment
15th Division
11th Tank Regiment

Defending units:
42nd Chinese Corps
8th Route Army
47th Chinese Corps
84th Chinese Corps

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
This is from last turn. Against this there is nothing you can do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
This is from last turn. Against this there is nothing you can do.

Have another drink?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

"Insane amounts of supply" is relative. Japan can afford to spend (say) 5,000 per day in China because it's literally right next door, and the VP gains justify the expenditure because of what it does to the Chinese. 5,000 supply per day for the Chinese, on the other hand, is an enormous usage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

It does seem that China is indefensible from the Allied perspective, at least with traditional tactics. The hope was that stacking limits would solve the problem but apparently not. I wonder what a mod that provided more auto supply would do to alter the situation. Might be an interesting test.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

It does seem that China is indefensible from the Allied perspective, at least with traditional tactics. The hope was that stacking limits would solve the problem but apparently not. I wonder what a mod that provided more auto supply would do to alter the situation. Might be an interesting test.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
IRL I'm sure the Chinese got food and clothing supply from their own people in the area - say 200 miles.
I'm also sure they dug tank traps and felled trees to interfere with tanks, so the armour steamroller was not quite so effective. Not sure if the AI reduces the effective AV of tanks when
in +2 and +3 terrain.
In other words, I agree that the current settings make things too easy for Japan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Eh, you need better search. Mr. Kane keeps surprising you...I guess you don't need me telling you that.

I think trying to hit the carriers you will simply throw away your pilots and planes, better to focus on swarming him with subs, and defending the industry with planes. At least they will be parachuting out over friendly territory.

Brisbane will get hit tomorrow, and I wouldn't put it past Mr. Kane to sweep there heavily first.

Grin and bear it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
Nothing wrong with the search. I detected him 5 turns ago. He has been sitting there since then. I hunkered down at Sydney expecting a port attack at the shipping there followed up by a landing at Bundaberg(?). He has a BB TF sitting 6 hexes due east of the base. Its just North of the screen border.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
Nothing wrong with the search. I detected him 5 turns ago. He has been sitting there since then. I hunkered down at Sydney expecting a port attack at the shipping there followed up by a landing at Bundaberg(?). He has a BB TF sitting 6 hexes due east of the base. Its just North of the screen border.

Staying put and being spotted! Something is up!

Time to sortie the Pearl Battleships! Find a flaw in his naval search and bombard Sendai or Ustonomyia! Or at least threaten it, so that Mr. Kane has to pull some things in off the front lines. Grab Wake back.

Find a volunteer xak and run in 5000 supply in somewhere...China? PI? I can't remember what all is gone...

Drop mines in his shipping areas with subs...

Use some torp carrying Cats on 2000 foot attacks against those carriers...mix in a high altitude bombing run with 4es.

Where are all your carriers?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Time to sortie the Pearl Battleships! Find a flaw in his naval search and bombard Sendai or Ustonomyia! Or at least threaten it, so that Mr. Kane has to pull some things in off the front lines. Grab Wake back.

Drop mines in his shipping areas with subs...