RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/28/2014 1:07:15 PM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Efaferal

Icemania,

I am not sure if this suggestion has been made, but I would recommend that aggressive races be given smaller TroopTransport templates so they start invading earlier. The current AI doesn't want to down size a transport to 300 for me. The result is that if I see I am next to a bug race I quickly design small transports then grab their near worlds in order to cut off expansion. The source shortages are a pain, but the population gain is winning in the long term. Not sure if the AI is smart enough to have a controlled expansion though.

-R

Thanks I'll look at that now.

If you go back to Post 31, one of the early topics was ensuring Troop Transports were available at Size 300.

Are you playing with 1.9.5.6 Beta 2?

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/28/2014 2:07:23 PM >

(in reply to Efaferal)

Post #: 301

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/28/2014 1:08:54 PM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lurchi
Proper shrinkage sure will be way better, but until it's implemented you could use a kludge. A bigger starting size is a quick and dirty solution, it's easy to do and just as easy to remove.
Space Construction Research isn't nullified, BTW, it still increases construction speed. Well, you have to research it anyway, unless you're happy with size 230 dwarf ships.

All right, unless there are any objections, I'll do that for release as an interim fix.

(in reply to lurchi)

Post #: 302

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/28/2014 1:13:39 PM

Icemania

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I just had a look in components.txt and construction size is not included as a field. The Size 160 at game start looks hard coded. I'll make Space Construction cheaper instead.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 303

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/28/2014 1:30:38 PM

Icemania

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Okay tested that change and works well. Thanks Lurchi ... that saves me maintaining and releasing two versions.

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Post #: 304

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/28/2014 1:49:59 PM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Efaferal

Icemania,

I am not sure if this suggestion has been made, but I would recommend that aggressive races be given smaller TroopTransport templates so they start invading earlier. The current AI doesn't want to down size a transport to 300 for me. The result is that if I see I am next to a bug race I quickly design small transports then grab their near worlds in order to cut off expansion. The source shortages are a pain, but the population gain is winning in the long term. Not sure if the AI is smart enough to have a controlled expansion though.

-R

Thanks I'll look at that now.

If you go back to Post 31, one of the early topics was ensuring Troop Transports were available at Size 300.

Are you playing with 1.9.5.6 Beta 2?

I've made some changes in the templates to work at Size 300 again and had to seriously nerf the designs by reducing a lot of thrusters, fuel cells and shields. It seems they do not shrink at all now.

I checked the designs in an earlier release (prior to 1.9.5.6 Beta 2) and no changes were made to Troop Transport Templates between then and the Alpha release. I've asked Erik to see what they can do in the 1.9.5.6 Beta 2 thread. Otherwise I'll have to nerf the designs for those races to implement this i.e. they'll be stuck with them.

One of the problems in not having conditional logic in the Ship Templates and that these small designs are weak late game. Fleets often don't invade with enough strength even though I've beefed up the number of Troop Transports the AI builds. However, a lot of Capital Ships are built with this Mod. So maybe I put a Troop Compartment in each Capital Ship design (Size 650 then auto scales up) ...

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/28/2014 2:50:37 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 305

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/28/2014 1:56:43 PM

lurchi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

I just had a look in components.txt and construction size is not included as a field. The Size 160 at game start looks hard coded.

It is, but only until you add this line at the end of project 362, Orbital Assembly in research.txt

ABILITIES		;Increased Construction Size, 2, 1, 230, 0

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 306

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/28/2014 2:03:21 PM

Icemania

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Champion!

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Post #: 307

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/28/2014 2:26:50 PM

Icemania

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Anybody know if it possible to modify the designs of INDEPENDENT freighters? I have thought they would use the design templates for the various races but the sizes don't align with the templates I've used.

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Post #: 308

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/28/2014 2:38:45 PM

Efaferal

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Wow Ice!
Great response time!

I think you hit the nail on the head regarding troops on larger vessels ( think Star Destroyers ) The alternative is 1 troop compartment on each destroyer. Then the Nerf is early game FP, but lets them invade the independants easily. And you don't have to adjust the build percents to compensate. I would still put 1-2 compartments in the capital ships to give the races with colony conquering victory condition the added oomph for delivering troops safely to the planet. Might even set capitals to 'Invade Immediately' because they can usually take the pounding.

-E

< Message edited by Efaferal -- 7/28/2014 3:41:12 PM >

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Post #: 309

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/28/2014 4:14:07 PM

ParagonExile

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Icemania, I ran into a serious issue.

I was auto-playing a game with the humans, letting the AI do its thing, and it expanded quickly (VERY quickly). It had a population of a trillion and a million military strength by year 35. There were some problems;

1. Even though their civilization expanded to cover the entire 1400-star galaxy eventually, they only ever built two constructors, which they immediately sent to repair derelict ships. This lead to a near-complete dearth of mining facilities, and it heavily damaged their economy. They were especially short on Hydrogen and Helium (My modded version of Caslon).

2. The AI builds far too many military ships at the beginning of the game; they had over fifty before they had warp bubbles.

3. Relating to the above; some of those ships they built were never upgraded! They just sat orbiting their capital with no warp drive and pitiful weapons.

4. They declared war on the ancient Guardians, but despite having over 100 times the military might, they waited several years to do anything.

That's it so far.

(in reply to Efaferal)

Post #: 310

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/28/2014 4:36:46 PM

PsyKoSnake

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quote:

1. Even though their civilization expanded to cover the entire 1400-star galaxy eventually, they only ever built two constructors, which they immediately sent to repair derelict ships. This lead to a near-complete dearth of mining facilities, and it heavily damaged their economy. They were especially short on Hydrogen and Helium (My modded version of Caslon).

t will probably not be the same if you play on Extreme and you let the ai control the Human. More cash to build constructor and other things.

(in reply to ParagonExile)

Post #: 311

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/28/2014 5:00:09 PM

ParagonExile

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PsyKoSnake
t will probably not be the same if you play on Extreme and you let the ai control the Human. More cash to build constructor and other things.

It was on extreme.

They had hundreds of millions of credits.

They were fine.

(in reply to PsyKoSnake)

Post #: 312

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/29/2014 11:29:28 AM

Icemania

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Responses below to the best of my knowledge, if others in the modding community had better ideas, I'm all ears.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile
1. Even though their civilization expanded to cover the entire 1400-star galaxy eventually, they only ever built two constructors, which they immediately sent to repair derelict ships. This lead to a near-complete dearth of mining facilities, and it heavily damaged their economy. They were especially short on Hydrogen and Helium (My modded version of Caslon).

Agreed, I've seen the same thing. Unfortunately I can't mod this. The closest I can find is "TradePriority". When set high the AI builds constructors earlier which is good. I've got increasing the number of Construction Ships on my Developer Support Wishlist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile
2. The AI builds far too many military ships at the beginning of the game; they had over fifty before they had warp bubbles.

Nothing I can do here, if I change "MilitaryConstructionLevel" it will impact what they build for the whole game, and Human is set to "Normal". This isn't necessarily a problem, if the AI can afford them, fuel them and retrofit them ... which ties into your other points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile
3. Relating to the above; some of those ships they built were never upgraded! They just sat orbiting their capital with no warp drive and pitiful weapons.

Agreed, I've seen the same thing. Unfortunately I can't mod this. The Policy files just have a binary "Y/N" settings which are all set to "Y". I'll add this to my Developer Support Wishlist. I've also noticed Construction Ship can be slow to retrofit when Warp becomes available.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile
4. They declared war on the ancient Guardians, but despite having over 100 times the military might, they waited several years to do anything.

Nothing I can mod do here.

Note that while there isn't much I can do here, observations about the AI list this are very useful ... if Erik and Elliot choose to continue to give the AI more focus.

(in reply to ParagonExile)

Post #: 313

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/29/2014 11:38:37 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Efaferal
Might even set capitals to 'Invade Immediately' because they can usually take the pounding.

Agreed but unfortunately there is no modding option to set this at the moment.

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Post #: 314

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/29/2014 2:16:12 PM

Efaferal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Efaferal
Might even set capitals to 'Invade Immediately' because they can usually take the pounding.

Agreed but unfortunately there is no modding option to set this at the moment.

I missed that in the ship files.

In the same vein I would love to be able to take my individual saved designs and plug them into a particular races portfolio of ships. I haven't found a way to do this through the modding. Has this been discussed in the wish list?

Essentially I am trying to hack a method to enforce component specific templates ( as opposed the current system which uses component types )

-E

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Post #: 315

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/29/2014 2:23:17 PM

Icemania

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In past threads (Distant Worlds AI in particular) I've asked for conditional logic in the templates e.g. the design of an Explorer at Size 160 is very different to the design I use at say Size 500. If that was available I could have put my full templates in this mod, instead they are a pale shadow of the real thing, but still way better than Vanilla. I assume it's too much of a change at this stage in the development lifecycle and will probably have to wait for Distant Worlds 2. The Developer Support Wishlist here is really intended for items that appear practical for a future patch.

I haven't asked about specific components v component types.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/29/2014 3:23:40 PM >

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Post #: 316

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/30/2014 2:48:16 AM

Tcby

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby
The observations I described on the previous page with Haree's banoserit are the extent of my trials. I'm changing the vanilla governments now to see what happens in a game using your mod.

I'm not sure which governments it would be appropriate for, so I'm going to start by applying it to way of ancients, way of darkness, and technocracy. The idea is that they are all very powerful, and should either limit the player by forcing them to be careful about upholding their reputation, or cause an AI to be at a higher risk of attack. Both are good imo, albiet for different reasons.

Of course you are welcome to the changes if they turn out to be worthwhile.

Any results here Tcby?

I've just finished testing the variation of the Mod to include default civilian ships (for those who don't want civilian ship delays on an Expensive or above Research Pre-Warp Starts) and the Pirate changes so pretty much ready for release.

Yep I'll do a write up when I get home from uni tonight. Short answer though is 'need more data'

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Post #: 317

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/30/2014 12:03:02 PM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby
Yep I'll do a write up when I get home from uni tonight. Short answer though is 'need more data'

No rush Tcby, we can include this very easily in an update after full release, I'll be hanging around.

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Post #: 318

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/31/2014 11:40:19 AM

Icemania

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Very late in a test game, this is how an AI fleet of Sluken World Destroyers dealt with the "upgraded" Ancient Guardians.

I had it on auto but I just had to customise these World Destroyer designs a bit! Death Rays galore combined with a Super Laser.

Is this balanced? No. Should I fix it? Yes. But sorry this is way too cool to change!

So if you are playing an Insect Race late game, you can role play and go on a Galactic Extermination Rampage.

And if you are playing another Race, if you dither around for too long, this is what you'll face eventually ... serves you right.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/31/2014 2:45:57 PM >

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Post #: 319

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 7/31/2014 12:07:31 PM

Icemania

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The AI Improvement Mod has now been released 1.0 and the OP updated accordingly.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/31/2014 1:07:50 PM >

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Post #: 320

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/31/2014 12:29:14 PM

Blackstork

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great news, cant wait till Extendded-compatibility version

_____________________________

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Beyond Extended Universe (WIP): http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3657646

(in reply to Cauldyth)

Post #: 321

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 7/31/2014 1:47:12 PM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackstork
great news, cant wait till Extendded-compatibility version

And I can't wait for the mega-mod based on Extended!

Hopefully while you guys work on that I have time to make a dent in the Extended version of this.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/2/2014 1:35:00 PM >

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Post #: 322

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/31/2014 1:58:05 PM

Blackstork

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yeah, my project is so ambitious (the character system is, race component is easy compared to CS) - if i will continue to work on it with techincal support from Ergie and writing support from ParagonExile , (3 man regulars mod team) as it is now, it will take approx week per each race ! to release its character system after the start is established. So, if you will have some free time/space i would be more than happy , once you finish - if you will help / do integration thingies with me , and some people will help at least by posting/input/testing, because the character system adds alot of rebalancing into races and additional separation/difference element to each race, which need to be checked, additionally to art work required.

< Message edited by Blackstork -- 7/31/2014 3:06:23 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 323

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/31/2014 4:03:39 PM

danymatrix

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quote:

I do intend to update this Mod as required following release, so please feel free to comment. I also plan to start work on a version for Haree78's terrific Extended Universe Mod.

great descision!

megamod including the technology tree spread would be great! Talk to Lurchi to launch its version of the mod tech before they launch the DW2.

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Post #: 324

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/31/2014 4:38:16 PM

lurchi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: danymatrix

megamod including the technology tree spread would be great! Talk to Lurchi to launch its version of the mod tech before they launch the DW2.

I'm nowhere near done, but I'll release Research Reloaded at least a year before DW2.

< Message edited by lurchi -- 7/31/2014 5:38:55 PM >

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Post #: 325

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/31/2014 5:23:04 PM

danymatrix

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Lurchi friend, I do not think missing so long to launch / announce dw2 .... Erik and company also need capital inflows and not only think they can have it with patches (although they are more than welcome) .... surely there will be news soon DW2

< Message edited by danymatrix -- 7/31/2014 6:30:25 PM >

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Post #: 326

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/31/2014 7:03:59 PM

Sithuk

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Where can I find the v1.0 changelog?

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Post #: 327

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/31/2014 7:11:38 PM

Tanaka

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Awesome work Ice best DW mod ever thank you for your work! If I only had one request to make this mod perfect it would be if you could work on balancing the engines as well!