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Just discovered this game.... - 7/31/2014 6:54:04 PM   
corwin90

 

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I've only bought Distant Worlds and Pandora: First Contact. I've enjoyed those games and was looking for my next game purchase from Matrix / Slitherine and stumbled upon World in Flames. I checked the store and read a bit of introductory material on the game. Then, I checked the price, $99, and fainted. Can someone perhaps tell me more about the game. What's this game do to justify such a high price. Apologies in advance if that offends anyone. The game looks interesting--just not $100 interesting. Thanks in advance!
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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 7/31/2014 7:05:59 PM   
brian brian

 

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The game is designed to put you in the place of a Commander-in-Chief of a Major Power in WWII. Naturally, there is a lot of decision making. But you are not all-powerful, with different limitations on your decisions depending on which Power you are playing. You make decisions on the grand strategy level, operationally, and even at the tactical level of individual corps of troops and heavy capital ships. You also get to allocate your resources to your military forces as you see fit.

The random weather system alone makes every game different starting on the very first turn. The US Entry system also makes every game different. Re-playability is very high.

(in reply to corwin90)
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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 7/31/2014 7:27:22 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: corwin90

I've only bought Distant Worlds and Pandora: First Contact. I've enjoyed those games and was looking for my next game purchase from Matrix / Slitherine and stumbled upon World in Flames. I checked the store and read a bit of introductory material on the game. Then, I checked the price, $99, and fainted. Can someone perhaps tell me more about the game. What's this game do to justify such a high price. Apologies in advance if that offends anyone. The game looks interesting--just not $100 interesting. Thanks in advance!

Rather than give you a sales pitch, I'll suggest you read some of the threads in the AAR (After Action Reports) forum to get a better understanding of how the game plays.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to corwin90)
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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 8/1/2014 7:19:20 AM   
Joseignacio


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The game:

* Has no comparison in emulation of Grand Strategy throughout the WWII, nowadays maybe in any Grand Stategy. Comes from a extremely complex board game (extraordinarily complex too, to code, I should say, which is another explanation of the price) considered the King of the strategic board games by most experts, the same way ASL is the King in tactical games.

* The board game (and expansions) cost a lot more than 100$, maybe 2 or 3 times as much, so for the company it's obviously interesting only if the computer version doesn't cannibalize their board game sales, at least at low distribution numbers.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 8/1/2014 8:21:28 AM >

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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 8/1/2014 8:25:07 AM   
Rising-Sun


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Like Jose mention, the boardgames like this would be 2-3 times higher prices, esp on ebay. And you would have to find your opponents to play along with. Now this game World in Flames, it doesnt have AI yet, but you should have no problems finding someone to play by email (PBEM). There can be good and bad ideas on PBEM, your opponent may not worth playing along with since lack of experiences or losing badly due lack of experiences. The worst parts of all is when your opponent is losing badly, good chance he/she will leave the game for good. Some cases can be other things.

Anyway i am still waiting for AI packages, so i can get the hang of the game and see if it worth it or not. IMO i wouldnt pay much for this either, esp without AIs.

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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 8/1/2014 12:22:22 PM   
Neilster


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Hi corwin90,

I'll do my best to add to the above. The boardgame World in Flames is IMHO the best WW2 grand strategy game. It has been around since the mid-80s and play-tested to death so the system, which was excellent to begin with, has been fine-tuned and works very well indeed.

As a player, you control one or more major powers. You have ultimate power over resource transportation, production, political decisions, grand strategy and operational (and grand tactical) matters. You are constrained by real world factors, however, and are often forced to take tough decisions.

Almost anything you can think of from WW2 is modelled. The Battle of the Atlantic, strategic bombing, blitzkrieg offensives, island hopping in the Pacific...you name it. There are many, many unit types, including the usual infantry, armour, fighters etc but also less common stuff like ski troops, paratroops and engineers. Some of these specialist units can really increase your flexibility but they come at the cost of other valuable units. No-one said this was going to be easy. Optional rules can be used for balance and to add chrome like oil consumption or special units.

Because the game is so complicated it has taken a very long time to develop the computer version. Steve, the developer, has put a herculean effort in to get it to the stage it is now. It is still a work in progress. Currently the game is only playable solitaire or hot-seat and he is squashing bugs (although it is very playable). Next will come multiplayer development. An AI will be worked on after that, although a very large amount of work has already gone into the computer opponent and this is really what Steve is looking forward to programming.

So that is where the game stands. Gradual progress is being made and it is already fun to play but there promises to be much more. The tutorials are extensive and the core of the system doesn't take too long to learn. Having the computer keep track of all the book-keeping and rules makes MWiF much faster to play than the board game. I'd at least keep an eye on development because I can assure you, this is a great system.

Cheers, Neilster



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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 8/1/2014 2:16:54 PM   
corwin90

 

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Thank you for the replies. They are much appreciated!

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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 8/1/2014 10:08:49 PM   
76mm


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My two cents: like you, I am new to the game. Many months after purchase, no net play, AI, or Europe-only scenarios. Unless you will enjoy playing yourself in the global war scenario for a couple more years, I strongly recommend that you not buy the game, at least for now.

(in reply to corwin90)
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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 8/1/2014 10:20:18 PM   
Pax25

 

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I had never heard of World in Flames either until I saw it on the Matrix site. I own a bunch of Matrix titles. I did my research on the boardgame and was intrigued since it had such a rich history. I bought the game, but at the time it appeared that there was a way to play over the internet or that this would be working soon. Well, I've learned how to play the game and currently have a solitaire game going, but frankly, this is only good for learning the game. I find it somewhat enjoyable, but no more so then playing with army men and rolling dice to find out who wins. The positive thing, is that I know I am learning the game, so I don't consider the time wasted. However, my point is, if you've never played this game before, hold off on buying it until they get the multiplayer working. Again, right now there is no real way to actually play this game. It's still like having a fancy boardgame that is nice to look at and read about, but you never get to actually play it. Again, I do recommend the game, it seems like a great system, but I just don't want to see you invest $100 like I did unless you know what you are getting. Hope that helps.

(in reply to corwin90)
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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 8/2/2014 2:12:32 AM   
juntoalmar


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Hi,

This is the best wargame I have ever played. If you like classical board wargames, high strategy games… I think this is the best option you have. You have read already descriptions of it

For me, I'm still learning how to play it correctly, so the fact that there is no AI or Netplay at the moment is not a problem (I would be probably playing solo anyway even if they were implemented). I think if you buy it now, you will spend a few months before you are able to start a Netplay.

IMHO worths any penny. Uncountable hours of play with it.

_____________________________

(my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/

(in reply to Pax25)
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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 8/2/2014 6:08:39 AM   
warspite1


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Corwin90 here is my take on the game and your specific question:

Your question was “what does this game do to justify such a high price?”

Well the answer to that is quite simple: World In Flames is the best wargame I have ever played. If Matrix World In Flames was fully functioning with an AI, Netplay and all optionals and scenarios then to me, this game would not be worth $100, it would be worth a whole lot more than that – I would gladly pay triple the price – and indeed have done so and more over the years when it comes to the board game. Keeping up with the expansions and new versions has not been cheap!

Back to MWIF.

The questions potential purchasers have to ask is whether, at $100 (or whatever the actual cost is):

a) do I get enough for my money as the game is now - with no AI, no net play, many bugs still to be squashed, and with some optionals and some scenarios to be coded? Essentially you are limited to playing solitaire or maybe hot seat. Some people also seem to have got some kind of multiplayer working but I do not know to what extent.

b) if not, am I happy to pay my money and see this as a long term project that I trust (there are no guarantees) will one day be finished and that, if completed, will make the outlay worthwhile?

For reasons given below the answers for me are a) yes and b) hell yes. I suspect there will come a point where I can no longer be bothered to play against myself, but there is no sign of that at the moment, and in playing solo I am picking up the rules and handy tips on play (I last played the board game almost 20 years ago and it was a different version). Hopefully I will thus be ready when net play comes on board.

This is most definitely NOT a beer and pretzels game – and it’s not your run-of-the-mill computer war game either. If you think/hope that this is a game that you are likely to be able to plug in and play without a reasonable amount of reading of the rules and/or following the tutorials, then this is not for you. Matrix World in Flames is a faithful reproduction of Australian Design Group’s award winning board game. A lot of the rules and concepts are different even to many board war games – the naval rules in particular.

So what makes the game so special?

One of the (many) great things about this game is the fact that you are the leader of one or more of the major powers of WWII. As such you get to command all those great units from WWII (and many what-if units too). CAUTION: Anyone casting a casual glance at the screenshots and seeing all the superb full colour camouflage, named aircraft and the individual ship counters may be forgiven for thinking that the orders of battle and the counter factors are 100% historically accurate. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. This is not War in the Pacific – Admirals Edition or War in the East. So, if this level of detail is important to a player, and to avoid comments like “This game is borked!” and complaints such as “x should have a better attack factor than y” and “Z was not launched until xxxx” I just want to make clear that this is a strategic level game and there are some liberties taken for play balance purposes and that ensure this game is FUN and winnable by both sides.

However, the liberties taken to ensure the game is balanced does not stop the game from having a real historical WWII feel about it. Each player will take command of the forces that his/her country/side had, the problems that they were faced with, and that need to be managed. E.g. Germany has a large army, its best units are extremely powerful, but there are a lot of lesser units and movement allowances are less for these than the bulk of their more mechanised British and American counterparts. The Commonwealth has a large navy (although much of this is WWI vintage) and the Royal Navy has tons to do to keep the sea lanes open for their convoys. Personally I have only ever played a two-player game – Axis vs Allies. This works perfectly though as, regardless of which side you are you get to control a huge army (Germany or Soviet Union; a large navy (USA/CW or Japan) and decent air forces (USA/CW or Germany).

Another win for this game (if this is important to you) are the aesthetic qualities. The Quality and colour of the counters, maps etc are a really big issue for me personally. A game that looks messy and/or gives you a headache just to read the info is a no no. MWIF ticks the aesthetic box and then some.

Although this is a strategic level game, the “chrome” employed is quite remarkable.

- You get to command every ship* on a named, individual basis from WWII + some ahistorical what-ifs... heaven (if that’s your thing). The aircraft carriers get to carry their own aircraft counters – and you decide what type(s) to load them up with.

- The aircraft, in full colour camouflage, are named types, not faceless "fighter" or "bomber". You get to fly those great aircraft from WWII – Spitfires, Me-109’s, Swordfish, Avengers, Hellcats, Lancasters….and some not so great……

- The land units are the least detailed in this respect, although the designations are largely historically accurate, and there are many types available, and with their own characteristics – Infantry, Armour, Paratroopers, Marines, Engineers, Territorials, Militia etc etc.

* Generally, from light cruiser upwards.

Although there is lots to learn and this is a monster game, one huge positive is that there is little in terms of the more tedious aspects of micro-management to worry about*. The vast majority of tasks you are employed to undertake are interesting elements, whether it be deciding your strategic goals, what to build, placing reinforcements, choosing what to attack, where, with what, or weighing up the political consequences of your choices.

*For the avoidance of doubt this is not a criticism of those who like that.

There are some key concepts that mean replayability is almost limitless:

- A player is not guaranteed his starting forces (units are drawn randomly from the force pools).

- Start positions are at the player’s discretion (no fixed positions that players can exploit by perfecting guaranteed attacks against).

- The game employs a basic rules framework that means that while each game has a World War II “feel”, apart from a limited number of restrictions e.g. Germany must invade Poland first impulse, the Commonwealth and France must declare war on Germany in the next impulse etc, each player is free to employ a wide range of tactics. Fancy taking out Spain? Turkey? Sweden? Then you can…. or at least can try. America will come into the war - that is almost certain…but when? Each player’s actions – both Allied and Axis - will affect the date of entry and benefits have to be weighed up against the costs when taking those actions.

- The decision of what to build is yours – subject to having enough build points and having the right gearing ratios (e.g. to replicate the problems of industrial production, you cannot simply switch all your production to one type in a single turn - it takes time to tool up and switch production). You cannot always guarantee what you get either. For example, you may choose to build an Infantry corps. But what value that Infantry Corps is, is down to the luck of the draw. The 10-6 Armour unit will be drawn eventually – but when?

- Each turn length is variable – turns are split into impulses and there are variable numbers of impulses each turn. Again, a player can affect the turn length by options that they take. The weather is also variable – not just by turn, but by impulse.

So, as you can hopefully see, this game is challenging, fun and beautifully designed and crafted. Is it worth $100? Only you can decide.



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 8/2/2014 7:27:36 AM >


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(in reply to juntoalmar)
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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 8/2/2014 3:45:23 PM   
bo

 

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warspite1's comments on the game are right on, in my opinion it could not have presented any better by anyone anywhere, very good synopsis warspite, many on the verge of whether to buy or not should read this. There are times when I feel no one should buy the game yet until it's finished unless a hundred and some dollars does not effect your standard of living, just kidding, but everyone wants value for their money whether they can afford it or not.

He told you like it is he did not oversell it or undersell it. My only trepidation is if I overstated the game and someone bought it on my comments and became very unhappy with it, that would truly bother me. I most likely will never play PBEM or Net play but that's just me. I happen to like playing the AI of any computer war game whether it's good, so so, or plain bad. Well plain bad might not be the way I would like to go But I feel the AI is many years off yet, hopefully not.

IMO the game World in Flames is the finest most complex war game ever made. I had and still have some very mixed feelings about the release of the game on Nov. 7th 2013 but that is for another post someday, not right now. I have played it and tested it for several years now and did an AAR on it albeit not that good but what the hell. Sometimes I believe that Steve and Matrix have bit off a little more than they can chew with all of the complex rules to be coded but we shall see. Again solo play is doable with this game but only for so long and then you will want more, much more.

Again if anyone is thinking about buying this game they should read warspites post.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 8/2/2014 4:48:00 PM >

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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 8/3/2014 9:45:43 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: corwin90
The game looks interesting--just not $100 interesting. Thanks in advance!
Here's my yardstick on whether or not this game is worth it. I purchased this game on February 16, 2014, which is exactly 24 weeks ago today. My best estimate (or guess) in how much time I've played, read about or posted about this game since then is (around) 12 hours per week. This equates to an estimated 288 hours devoted to MWiF since I purchased it. At the price tag of $100, my estimated cost is around 35 cents per hour. Before the end of summer, I'll probably be looking at a quarter per hour. Before the end of this year (or early) next year I'm sure I'll be down to 10 cents an hour. And over the lifetime of this game, the cost will I expect may be as low as 1-cent per hour.

For me it's all about value. I've paid 30, 40 or even 50 dollars for a handfull of games that I've looked at but never really played. Their cost is probably at 5, 10 or even 20 dollars an hour. So which is a better value?

(in reply to corwin90)
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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 8/3/2014 11:29:58 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958


quote:

ORIGINAL: corwin90
The game looks interesting--just not $100 interesting. Thanks in advance!
Here's my yardstick on whether or not this game is worth it. I purchased this game on February 16, 2014, which is exactly 24 weeks ago today. My best estimate (or guess) in how much time I've played, read about or posted about this game since then is (around) 12 hours per week. This equates to an estimated 288 hours devoted to MWiF since I purchased it. At the price tag of $100, my estimated cost is around 35 cents per hour. Before the end of summer, I'll probably be looking at a quarter per hour. Before the end of this year (or early) next year I'm sure I'll be down to 10 cents an hour. And over the lifetime of this game, the cost will I expect may be as low as 1-cent per hour.

For me it's all about value. I've paid 30, 40 or even 50 dollars for a handfull of games that I've looked at but never really played. Their cost is probably at 5, 10 or even 20 dollars an hour. So which is a better value?


Mwif of course I never argue with a person with a calculator

Bo

(in reply to rkr1958)
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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 8/4/2014 12:30:51 AM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958


quote:

ORIGINAL: corwin90
The game looks interesting--just not $100 interesting. Thanks in advance!
Here's my yardstick on whether or not this game is worth it. I purchased this game on February 16, 2014, which is exactly 24 weeks ago today. My best estimate (or guess) in how much time I've played, read about or posted about this game since then is (around) 12 hours per week. This equates to an estimated 288 hours devoted to MWiF since I purchased it. At the price tag of $100, my estimated cost is around 35 cents per hour. Before the end of summer, I'll probably be looking at a quarter per hour. Before the end of this year (or early) next year I'm sure I'll be down to 10 cents an hour. And over the lifetime of this game, the cost will I expect may be as low as 1-cent per hour.

For me it's all about value. I've paid 30, 40 or even 50 dollars for a handfull of games that I've looked at but never really played. Their cost is probably at 5, 10 or even 20 dollars an hour. So which is a better value?


Mwif of course I never argue with a person with a calculator

Bo
HP with RPN (reverse Polish notation).


< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 8/4/2014 2:20:03 AM >

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RE: Just discovered this game.... - 8/5/2014 2:15:02 AM   
Rosseau

 

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I don't know if this is the place for it, so pls move to General Forums as needed.

I bought the whole enchilada before the no-hard-copy manuals option was available. My game is still in the box from Matrix, and I don't think I'll ever have time to install and play it.

So if anyone's interested in making me an offer (Fedex Ground, U.S. only), please do. Assuming this is okay with Matrix.

(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 16
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