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Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/2/2014 8:23:55 AM

Denniss

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I'm currently working on adapting the scenarios for 1.08 to get the production up and running with the new options + moving factories to historical locations (large scenarios/campaigns only).

If you have any suggestions/ideas what should be done please post them. This could be wrong equipment in units, wrong withdrawal dates, etc.
If you have suggestions for missing/new units please back this up with verifyable data.

No new Stalingrad discussion please, a disband unit option may be added at a later development stage (if possible without braking something else).

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Post #: 1

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/2/2014 5:43:33 PM

rjs28023

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From: Wisconsin
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Denniss,

This involves a Lend Lease tank, the M4A2(76)W Sherman. This vehicle currently enters in January 1944 and runs through September 1945.

The M4A2 was the diesel powered Sherman, which the Soviets preferred.

This vehicle was not available until the late Summer of 1944 and was not commonly seen in combat on the Eastern Front until early 1945.

The M4 Sherman with the 75mm gun should be the Lend Lease vehicle provided for a much longer period of time. During Operation Bagration, in the Summer of 1944, the Soviets were using the 75mm Sherman. The 76mm Sherman was available during the Battle of Budapest.

The M4A2 Production Table is attached from M4 (76mm) Sherman Medium Tank 1943-65 by Steven J. Zaloga.

I would make the entry date for this Lend Lease vehicle August/September 1944 not January 1944.

Thanks,

Randy

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 2

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/2/2014 6:24:36 PM

GamesaurusRex

Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
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Denniss:

A Modified 41-45 GC Scenario ?

Russian OOB changes:
1) The 28th Army should start in Viazma, not way up north where it does.
2) The 53rd Army should appear in August '41, not October, '41.
3) The 58th Army should appear in December '41, not June '42.

4) The 59th Army is missing entirely and should appear in December '41.
5) The 60th Army is missing and should appear in December '41.
(it appears incorrectly later in game when the 60th was redesignated as the 3rd Shock Army.)
6) The 61st Army is missing entirely and should appear in December '41.
As for TOE and morale initial values of missing units, I suppose they'd be clones of the 50th-60th Armies.

I got these details from referring to two books... "When Titans Clashed" by Glantz & House, and "War Without Garlands - Operation Barbarorosa 1941/1942" by Kershaw. Both books have nice maps and OOB references.

And thanks for the effort Denniss !

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 8/2/2014 7:39:03 PM >

(in reply to rjs28023)

Post #: 3

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/2/2014 7:07:10 PM

Denniss

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I will look into the M4, according to Wiki 2007 M4 75mm and 2095 M4 76mm were sent to soviet union.

I am very weak with literature on soviet organization. The 60th Army was probably left out because of the Shock Army transformation, the other option would be to withdraw the 60th Army the turn befor the Shock Army arrives. No idea where the other two came from and what happened to them in WW2.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 4

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/2/2014 9:34:46 PM

Schmart

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
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Russian Army unit data needs more than a handful of Army HQs. It's also complicated because so many of the HQs changed names, disbanded, reformed (often more than once), became guards, etc. I'm working on a lot of this, but it's a long term project that needs more than a quick fix.

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 5

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/2/2014 11:06:12 PM

rjs28023

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Denniss,

More M4 76mm information.

Randy

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 6

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/3/2014 12:04:57 AM

Denniss

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0751, M4A2 Sherman, fuel use -54 to 68, extended to 7/44, build limit/extension from 17/1 to 26/2 (~1900 received)
0752, M4A2 (76)W Sherman, fuel use -19 to 103, delayed to 8/44, build limit +10 to 22 (~2000 received)

EDIT: the 76mm fuel use sounds too high despite the reduction.

< Message edited by Denniss -- 8/3/2014 1:07:21 AM >

(in reply to rjs28023)

Post #: 7

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/3/2014 7:24:33 AM

Omat

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Hello

- 59. Armee:

Activated: 15 Nov. 1941 as part of the Siberian Military District

Was send end Dec 1941: to the region Cherepovets. was part of the Lyuban Offensive Operation

The Army was active the whole war and did not changed it`s name.

Army leaders:

Ivan M. Tokarev from Nov 41 till 01.02.42
Lembit A. Pern from 02.02.42 till 16.04.42
Nikolai V. Gorodetskii from 17.04.42 till 14.05.42
Viktor F. Bogdanovich from 15.05.42 till 04.06.42
a Colonel from 04.06.42 till 07.07.42
Pavel A. Artiushenko from 07.07.42 till 07.08.43
Nikolai P. Kovalchuck from 08.08.43 till rest of war

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

61. Armee

Became active 15.Nov 1941

Was part of the South West Front early December and at the end of December part of the Bryansk Front. Seems not to be rebuild and fought te whole war.

First Leader:

Fyodor Kuznetsov from Nov.41 till Dec.41
Markian Popov from from Dec.41 till March.42
Pavel A. Belov from march.42 to end of war

So I would not set a leader for the 41-45 scenario

Hope it helps.

Omat

< Message edited by Omat -- 8/3/2014 8:25:24 AM >

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(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 8

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/3/2014 9:03:13 AM

Denniss

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According to the terms used in the wiki entries (built, formed, created) the 59-61 HQs are something the player has to pay for with AP. They were not existing and just transferred from Siberia so they can't come for free. It's different with non-buildable HQs like Fronts or the Shock armies.

(in reply to Omat)

Post #: 9

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/11/2014 2:22:13 PM

vinnie71

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Is it possible to have some of the temporary German army level HQ's included in the game? Some are already included in the scenarios and may help in alleviating the Axis CC issues midway through the war. Or maybe add flak divisions?

BTW in the GC Luftflotte 6 enters the game without any airbases attached. Having said that, I'm under the impression that Luftflotte 2 left for the Mediterranean in real life sometime in '42, with no 6 replacing it in the oob.

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 10

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/11/2014 3:09:04 PM

Denniss

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Do you have data for flak division used in the east? AFAIR these were units for home defense and at best only used in the east for a very short period.
A quick look at the Luftflotte setup, 2 was moved to Italy in 41/42 and Luftwaffenkommando Ost (later Luftflotte 6) was the replacement. It was formed from V. Fliegerkorps. Really sad we have no in-game renaming function.

(in reply to vinnie71)

Post #: 11

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/11/2014 7:26:53 PM

vinnie71

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Regarding flak divisions, I have tried to find information on line but there is very little and even

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_divisions_in_World_War_II#Anti-Aircraft_divisions

However, it is interesting that one (the 9th) was destroyed at Stalingrad.

this is a tad more informative

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=133825

This has more information available and has a sort of list of component regiments/units as well

http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak.html

According to this site, 9 divisions were in the east during the war (others were in Italy, the West and even Tunisia besides the home front). 2 and 6 served up north, 12, 18 and 23 in the centre and 9, 10, 15 and 17 in the south at different parts of the war.

Indeed there were both flak corps and brigades as well but I'm not sure these could actually be modeled in game.

On the issue of Luftflottes 2 and 6, maybe Luftflotte 2 could be withdrawn say sometime after Luftflotte 6 becomes available?

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 12

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/12/2014 12:19:11 AM

MechFO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Do you have data for flak division used in the east? AFAIR these were units for home defense and at best only used in the east for a very short period.
A quick look at the Luftflotte setup, 2 was moved to Italy in 41/42 and Luftwaffenkommando Ost (later Luftflotte 6) was the replacement. It was formed from V. Fliegerkorps. Really sad we have no in-game renaming function.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Flak-Divisionen/Index.htm

Everything there.

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 13

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/12/2014 12:46:45 AM

MechFO

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Joined: 6/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

I'm currently working on adapting the scenarios for 1.08 to get the production up and running with the new options + moving factories to historical locations (large scenarios/campaigns only).

If you have any suggestions/ideas what should be done please post them. This could be wrong equipment in units, wrong withdrawal dates, etc.
If you have suggestions for missing/new units please back this up with verifyable data.

No new Stalingrad discussion please, a disband unit option may be added at a later development stage (if possible without braking something else).

I believe the Romanians might be missing some Artillery.

http://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/?article=36
http://niehorster.orbat.com/031_rumania/41_organ/corps_inf_41.html

There should be 8 Corps Art Regiments, I count 5 in game (4193-4202), excluding the Fortress Regiments which there are correctly 2.

There also might be some Army level arty battalions missing.

In addition, you might consider making the 60mm part of the Rom infantry squad from the 42 organisation onward.

http://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/?article=28

In the spring of 1942, the infantry regiment received a scout company and a pioneer company. The number of battalions was reduced from 3 to 2, but the platoon was upgraded from 3 sections (30 men) to 4 sections (40 men). Each section had a light machine-gun and 60 mm Brandt mortar.

As well as the battalion and Regimental heavy weapons:

The battalion's heavy weapons company was reorganized into 4 machine-gun platoons (4 MGs each) and one mortar platoon (4 81.4 mm Brandt). The regiment's heavy weapons company was also reorganized. It had 3 platoons of 37 mm AT guns (6 Bofors model 1936 each) and one platoon of 47 mm AT guns (6 Breda/Schneider/B�hler).

-> 6x16->96 HMG
6x4-> 24 81 Mortars
3x3x6-> 54 37 ATG
3x6 18 47 ATG

< Message edited by MechFO -- 8/12/2014 2:06:35 AM >

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 14

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/12/2014 1:21:06 AM

MechFO

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Joined: 6/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

I'm currently working on adapting the scenarios for 1.08 to get the production up and running with the new options + moving factories to historical locations (large scenarios/campaigns only).

If you have any suggestions/ideas what should be done please post them. This could be wrong equipment in units, wrong withdrawal dates, etc.
If you have suggestions for missing/new units please back this up with verifyable data.

No new Stalingrad discussion please, a disband unit option may be added at a later development stage (if possible without braking something else).

You might also consider giving the Fins some love...

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/FORMATIONS3.htm

Among various miscellaneous items, the big reduction of the 42 Division doesn't seem warranted since it only seem to have lost a battalion.

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 15

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/13/2014 2:41:09 AM

Great_Ajax

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From: Alabama, USA
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Flak divisions are already represented by the various flak regiments and battalions. These units were never massed at divisional strength but dispersed amongst their supported ground units or in the cities.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Do you have data for flak division used in the east? AFAIR these were units for home defense and at best only used in the east for a very short period.
A quick look at the Luftflotte setup, 2 was moved to Italy in 41/42 and Luftwaffenkommando Ost (later Luftflotte 6) was the replacement. It was formed from V. Fliegerkorps. Really sad we have no in-game renaming function.

_____________________________

"You want mercy!? I'm chaotic neutral!"

WiTE Scenario Designer
WitW Scenario/Data Team Lead
WitE 2.0 Scenario Designer

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 16

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/13/2014 2:51:22 AM

Great_Ajax

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From: Alabama, USA
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All eight artillery regiments are there. They just aren't all located around those slots. There are numerous Army level artillery battalions as well. The Rumanian OOB gets tricky after 1941 as there aren't many detailed references after that.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

I'm currently working on adapting the scenarios for 1.08 to get the production up and running with the new options + moving factories to historical locations (large scenarios/campaigns only).

If you have any suggestions/ideas what should be done please post them. This could be wrong equipment in units, wrong withdrawal dates, etc.
If you have suggestions for missing/new units please back this up with verifyable data.

No new Stalingrad discussion please, a disband unit option may be added at a later development stage (if possible without braking something else).

I believe the Romanians might be missing some Artillery.

http://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/?article=36
http://niehorster.orbat.com/031_rumania/41_organ/corps_inf_41.html

There should be 8 Corps Art Regiments, I count 5 in game (4193-4202), excluding the Fortress Regiments which there are correctly 2.

There also might be some Army level arty battalions missing.

In addition, you might consider making the 60mm part of the Rom infantry squad from the 42 organisation onward.

http://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/?article=28

In the spring of 1942, the infantry regiment received a scout company and a pioneer company. The number of battalions was reduced from 3 to 2, but the platoon was upgraded from 3 sections (30 men) to 4 sections (40 men). Each section had a light machine-gun and 60 mm Brandt mortar.

As well as the battalion and Regimental heavy weapons:

The battalion's heavy weapons company was reorganized into 4 machine-gun platoons (4 MGs each) and one mortar platoon (4 81.4 mm Brandt). The regiment's heavy weapons company was also reorganized. It had 3 platoons of 37 mm AT guns (6 Bofors model 1936 each) and one platoon of 47 mm AT guns (6 Breda/Schneider/B�hler).

-> 6x16->96 HMG
6x4-> 24 81 Mortars
3x3x6-> 54 37 ATG
3x6 18 47 ATG

< Message edited by el hefe -- 8/13/2014 3:52:33 AM >

_____________________________

"You want mercy!? I'm chaotic neutral!"

WiTE Scenario Designer
WitW Scenario/Data Team Lead
WitE 2.0 Scenario Designer

(in reply to MechFO)

Post #: 17

RE: Scenario changes for 1.08 - 8/16/2014 4:10:00 PM

Denniss

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From: Germany, Hannover (region)
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Luftflotte situation:
41 campaign has Luftflotte 2 and II. Fliegerkorps not withdrawing to Italy, Luftflotte 6 is arriving as reinforcement in 43.
42 campaign has Luftwaffenkommando Ost but that's not withdrawn to be reformed into Luftflotte 6, which is arriving as reinforcement in 43.

Changes to 42 campaign look somewhat easy, just rename LWKdo Ost to Luftflotte 6 and disable the arriving Luftflotte 6 HQ.

In 41 campaign Luftflotte 2 and II. Fliegerkorps should be withdrawn. I will have to test withdrawing of the airfields so they don't take associated air units with them. Arrival of Luftflotte 6 should be moved forward to spring 42.

There's at least one change to romanian units: 2nd sec div disabled and 2nd fortress bde reformed into 2nd sec div. 1st fortress bde was obviously reformed into a div in spring 42, I'll have to check this too.

(in reply to Great_Ajax)

Post #: 18