RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release)

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/1/2014 4:35:03 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk
Where can I find the v1.0 changelog?

Hey Sithuk:

There are not many changes from the Alpha Release but they are important:

1. Changed Troop Transports so that they can be built at Size 300. It appears changes to how the game shrinks Troop Transports were made in the 1.9.5.6 Beta as this was definitely working earlier. I�ve added Troop Compartments to the larger ship designs to compensate for the smaller Troop Transport design templates. We'll have to keep an eye on what happens with future patches as well and I'll update as needed.

2. Fixed the upgraded Pirate Ship Designs to ensure they include Assault Pods. My bad on that one, too much testing without Pirates, given the AI is poor at dealing with them effectively.

3. Implemented a temporary change so that Size 230 is available at the start of a pre-warp game. This way the mod's upgraded Civilian ships can be built immediately and I�m not forced so put out two versions of the Mod i.e. one with seriously nerfed Civilian Ship designs for Expensive or above Research settings on a pre-warp start. As a result the Mod can now also be played on any Research setting. Note Civilian Ship Shrinkage remains on the Developer Support Wishlist as this would be the better solution.

There have been a number of other additions to the Developer Support Wishlist arising from the good feedback from the community.

Hope this helps, refer to recent posts for more information and discussion as required.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/2/2014 1:34:42 PM >

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Post #: 331

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 8/1/2014 7:12:20 PM

squiddy286

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Hi again, Icemania! I encountered some strange behaviour with design automation with quameno. They are focusing on gravitic weapons and missiles, but for some reason no missiles used in any of designs and also no weapons used (besides point defence) on both small space ports and mining stations. I can put desired weapons myself, but AI player may suffer because of that.
By the way, thanks for 1.0, new pirates with assaul pods are constant headache :D

< Message edited by squiddy286 -- 8/1/2014 8:12:48 PM >

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Post #: 332

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/1/2014 11:37:40 PM

Icemania

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The Quameno particularly like the Area Gravity weapons. After reviewing following your posts there are some designs with Area Gravity Weapons only, both most have a mix of Graviton Beams and Area Gravity Weapons. While they will use them after that technology is available, it takes a little time to get there, so what I can do in the 1.01 version is put some Graviton Beams on those designs as well.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/2/2014 1:34:29 PM >

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Post #: 333

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/2/2014 1:55:44 AM

Icemania

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On Missiles, the Gravitic focused races should not use them at all.

If you are starting "pre-warp", ResearchDesignTechFocus is not used, the Research Build Orders are used (which go deep into the research tree) and they have a Gravitic focus. In those Research Orders you'll see some missile research done much later on to get to Point Defence.

If you are starting "normal", the Research Build Orders are used in-game, but when the map is generated ResearchDesignTechFocus plays a role. Only some of those choices make a difference to starting technologies. I've selected the choices that are most important for each race and which change the technologies available when the game starts (only some do). In this case, Missiles are selected as one of the six ResearchDesignTechFocus fields, the other 5 are more important (e.g Gravitic Weapons) for this race, but I couldn't find anything else that works that adds more value. So the starting Missile Research is only relevant later on to get to Point Defence.

Please let me know if you observe something else in game.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/2/2014 1:34:20 PM >

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Post #: 334

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/2/2014 5:44:41 AM

Icemania

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I've made a good start on an Extended Version. Components.txt and Research.txt have been updated to amalgamate my changes with Haree78's changes, the race files have been updated to align with those changes for Vanilla races and I've applied the design templates to all extended races. I'm just testing the first extended race that has been fully updated, the Banoserit, at the moment.

Any specific requests for the Extended Races (within the scope of the AI Improvement Mod)?

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/2/2014 1:34:05 PM >

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Post #: 335

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 8/2/2014 6:43:57 AM

Cmiller

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IceMania, if its alright can I record footage of your mod in action, and upload it onto youtube. I haven't played your mod yet, but since its complete I feel its a good time to test it. For testing, all I have to do is set automation to full an watch the AI, correct? What difficulty should I start with and other settings should I have set?

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Post #: 336

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/2/2014 7:18:21 AM

Icemania

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Sure go ahead Cmiller. I'm going to continue to update the Mod so if you encounter any issues let me know. If I can fix them I will. If not the issues can go on the expanding Developer Support Wishlist in the OP.

With regards to Settings, yes make sure it's fully automated (including Empire Settings "Newly Built Ships are Automated"). To watch the AI you probably want to choose Normal Difficulty so that your automated empire is not playing with disadvantages. I'd recommend starting with Excellent Homeworlds (since the AI still struggles at times with resource management) and few Pirates (since the AI struggles to handle them effectively). If you really want to get straight into the action you could always start with a more advanced and mature galaxy.

It maybe worth playing a race using weapons that are not so commonly seen in Vanilla as I've ensured there is more variety in-game. The Shandar for Missiles/Fighters/Bombers perhaps. I quite enjoy playing the Sluken due to the speedy engines and since they enjoy bombarding enemy planets. Or have a look at the "Summary" tab in the AI Improvement Mod.xls in the download for the weapons focus used by other races.

Once last comment, the Mod really is intended for the higher difficulties (as mentioned in the about text in-game when you select this Mod as a Theme). You'll notice the changes the most when you play against the AI Empires, as opposed to watching the AI Empires on Normal. So my suggestion would be to play against the AI on Extreme (or the highest difficulty level you normally can play at) and discuss how you go compared to Vanilla.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/2/2014 1:33:52 PM >

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Post #: 337

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/2/2014 12:37:30 PM

Icemania

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So when are you all going to start posting your own screenshots?

The only way this Mod becomes worth the effort is screenshots from you of crazy battles or getting destroyed by the AI ...

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Post #: 338

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/2/2014 10:26:15 PM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

So when are you all going to start posting your own screenshots?

The only way this Mod becomes worth the effort is screenshots from you of crazy battles or getting destroyed by the AI ...

I think its safe to say you will see a lot more playing and testing from most people when the extended version is out. Im really looking forward to it! Also waiting on the official patch to be released!

Any chance of engine re-balancing to be included with your weapons re-balancing?

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/2/2014 11:29:45 PM >

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Post #: 339

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/3/2014 3:58:42 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
I think its safe to say you will see a lot more playing and testing from most people when the extended version is out. Im really looking forward to it! Also waiting on the official patch to be released!

Agreed ... and it's coming. However, if people come up with good idea for changes that apply across races after the Extended version is out, I will need to modify 62 races (i.e. 22 Vanilla plus 40 Extended). So the earlier I get good comments the better! And for that reason I really appreciate everyone who has commented to date!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Any chance of engine re-balancing to be included with your weapons re-balancing?

How would this improve AI performance? I would suggest this is an item to discuss with lurchi for Research Reloaded.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/3/2014 6:26:21 AM >

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Post #: 340

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/3/2014 5:47:33 AM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
I think its safe to say you will see a lot more playing and testing from most people when the extended version is out. Im really looking forward to it! Also waiting on the official patch to be released!

Agreed ... and it's coming. However, if people come up with good idea for changes that apply across races after the Extended version is out, I will need to modify 62 races (i.e. 22 Vanilla plus 40 Extended). So the earlier I get good comments the better! And for that reason I really appreciate everyone who has commented to date!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Any chance of engine re-balancing to be included with your weapons re-balancing?

How would this improve AI performance? I would suggest this is an item to discuss with lurchi for Research Reloaded.

For one I find that the less that automated ships are allowed to run off and fly across the galaxy by researching just one engine the more they stay close to home and do what they are supposed to do. Constuctors, defense fleets, mining ships etc... If engines were balanced to reasonable ranges not only would it be more fun and make more sense by adding a reasonable pacing to the game I do think it would help the AI! It would force the AI to the same reasonable ranges as human sends their ships. We don't send our ships off to the other side of the galaxy to mine or build stuff. This should not be until late game when the appropriate balanced engines would be researched.

But if your mod is being included with lurchi's mod and he is balancing the engines then that would be great too! But if he doesn't then I really hope you do! When your mod is finished will his take much longer to complete and combine?

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/3/2014 6:56:54 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/3/2014 6:45:49 AM

Icemania

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Thanks Tanaka, a good point about the AI tendency to travel too far early and mid-game. Let me get the Beta release out for Extended first and have a think about whether to do it in an update or leave it to lurchi.

It will require a fair bit of work to apply the AI Improvement Mod to Research Reloaded due to the massive changes in the Tech Tree. lurchi needs some support from Elliot to make his mod work. I have a long list of Developer support in my wishlist in the OP ... and they are very quiet at the moment ...

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Post #: 342

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/3/2014 11:46:05 AM

lurchi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

But if your mod is being included with lurchi's mod and he is balancing the engines then that would be great too! But if he doesn't then I really hope you do! When your mod is finished will his take much longer to complete and combine?

Lower Speed And Range V2 is included in Research Reloaded.

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Post #: 343

Extended AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 8/3/2014 1:12:32 PM

Icemania

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Hey All:

As a surprise for you all I'll shortly be updating the OP with an Alpha Release for an Extended Version of the AI Improvement Mod.

Note that I have only tested 4 of the 16 Extended races so this is a genuine Alpha. I'll test other races in the near future, as time allows, but if you want to pick you favourite race and see what happens please do so and report back any observations. I have not yet implemented Race Biases changes and also I'm sure some of the designs could use some optimisation. So fair warning, you will probably find issues, but I could use your help to test.

The download is a new theme to avoid copying and pasting files between Mods. This way, if Haree78 updates his Mod, the AI Improvement Mod will not break (e.g. adding a single component is enough). I'll be able to review the changes and update this while everyone can keep playing.

Cheers,
Icemania

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Post #: 344

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/3/2014 6:52:35 PM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Thanks Tanaka, a good point about the AI tendency to travel too far early and mid-game. Let me get the Beta release out for Extended first and have a think about whether to do it in an update or leave it to lurchi.

It will require a fair bit of work to apply the AI Improvement Mod to Research Reloaded due to the massive changes in the Tech Tree. lurchi needs some support from Elliot to make his mod work. I have a long list of Developer support in my wishlist in the OP ... and they are very quiet at the moment ...

Thanks for considering it and thank you both for replying! Glad to know he has balanced them in his mod with his Lower Speed And Range V2 but do hope you consider at least adding his Lower Speed And Range V2 into your mod so I don't have to wait quite a while for you to combine your mods. Selfishly

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Post #: 345

RE: Extended AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 8/3/2014 7:07:46 PM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Hey All:

As a surprise for you all I'll shortly be updating the OP with an Alpha Release for an Extended Version of the AI Improvement Mod.

Note that I have only tested 4 of the 16 Extended races so this is a genuine Alpha. I'll test other races in the near future, as time allows, but if you want to pick you favourite race and see what happens please do so and report back any observations. I have not yet implemented Race Biases changes and also I'm sure some of the designs could use some optimisation. So fair warning, you will probably find issues, but I could use your help to test.

The download is a new theme to avoid copying and pasting files between Mods. This way, if Haree78 updates his Mod, the AI Improvement Mod will not break (e.g. adding a single component is enough). I'll be able to review the changes and update this while everyone can keep playing.

Cheers,
Icemania

Awesome looking forward to testing thank you! Small request would it be possible to only include only the files from Extended that you modified and not all the files as I am using a modified Extended version of my own and it makes it hard to figure out which files I need to replace and which files I don't.

Also realized that balancing the engines would also help the AI by giving the pirates a reasonable range and would prevent them from being able to do so much destruction of AI empires so fast. AI nations would have more room to grow before being attacked. AI has a hard enough time with pirates and monsters.

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/4/2014 2:59:44 AM >

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RE: Extended AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 8/4/2014 1:28:00 AM

Tanaka

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Not sure if it is the mod or the game but I got this crash while testing and running your ai extended version?

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 347

RE: Extended AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 8/4/2014 9:33:38 AM

Icemania

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Tanaka, please raise this in Tech Support. From a Modding perspective I have no way to robustly answer your question. What I can provide is the following observations:

1. I have not seen this specific error message during testing of the AI Improvement Mod.
2. From the text in your error message it appears to be drawing related. The AI Improvement Mod makes no changes to images etc.
3. The AI Improvement Mod related errors during development have almost always occurred during galaxy generation.

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Post #: 348

RE: Extended AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 8/4/2014 10:20:20 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Small request would it be possible to only include only the files from Extended that you modified and not all the files as I am using a modified Extended version of my own and it makes it hard to figure out which files I need to replace and which files I don't.

The files changed as part of the AI Improvement Mod are:
1. Everything in the "designTemplates", "Policy" and "races" folders
2. components.txt
3. research.txt

I would prefer the theme is used so I can focus my community support on that theme, rather than get caught up in problems that are unrelated to this Mod.

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Post #: 349

RE: Extended AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 8/4/2014 8:29:58 PM

sayke

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Icemania - Getting a playthrough started now, with slow Gerax drives from the "Lower speed and range" mod, and a couple shipsets from Extended, but otherwise just your settings =) Am looking forward to it yay!

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Post #: 350

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/5/2014 4:18:19 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
For one I find that the less that automated ships are allowed to run off and fly across the galaxy by researching just one engine the more they stay close to home and do what they are supposed to do. Constuctors, defense fleets, mining ships etc... If engines were balanced to reasonable ranges not only would it be more fun and make more sense by adding a reasonable pacing to the game I do think it would help the AI! It would force the AI to the same reasonable ranges as human sends their ships. We don't send our ships off to the other side of the galaxy to mine or build stuff. This should not be until late game when the appropriate balanced engines would be researched.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Also realized that balancing the engines would also help the AI by giving the pirates a reasonable range and would prevent them from being able to do so much destruction of AI empires so fast. AI nations would have more room to grow before being attacked. AI has a hard enough time with pirates and monsters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
I really like the changes to early game drives as the jump from speed 2,000 to 12,500 is far too extreme. Cool.

What I'd suggest reconsidering is the late game, where I consider default speeds to be far too slow. It's often a mop-up operation, faster speeds would help speed-up the late game. So I would prefer more than default speed, not less ... at least once you get to Tech Level 5 and above.

Also, once Gerax is available, I'm finding in the AI Improvement Mod that there is little incentive to focus early on Hyperdrive research, as other areas provide more significant benefits. This may change if there was more of a range in Hyperdrive speeds. It always struck me how limited the change was from Tier 1 to Tier 7 ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: lurchi
Oh, don't worry. There will be more and higher speed drives in Research Reloaded. Also a new one with extremely high speed. The drive tree will be completely redone like the rest of the research.

While lurchi has this in hand for Research Reloaded, I'm currently testing my own interim changes that combine slower Gerax Hyperdrives with increased speeds from Tier 5 and above.

If anybody objects to this in the next release please let me know real quick because I really like what I'm seeing ...

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/5/2014 5:19:07 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/5/2014 4:50:04 AM

Blackstork

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Hey mate, great job, but i been trying to understand what are the files that relate only to your mod - since you provided full theme i would like to separate files that do changes in order to make some merging experiements/pre-integration tryouts

Is that all racial txt files, all templates, all policies, and components files? Do i miss something?

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/5/2014 6:18:23 AM

Sithuk

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+1

Hi Icemania, I'm looking forward to the tweaks to the hyperdrives. I think on higher research cost games there is an issue with the over-dominance of the pirates in the pre-warp era, which hampers the AI empires as they can't deal with the pirates as effectively as the human player. I'll be interested to see the results of your tests.

What (other) improvements do you foresee for the AI by the hyperdrive tweaks?

quote:

While lurchi has this in hand for Research Reloaded, I'm currently testing my own interim changes that combine slower Gerax Hyperdrives with increased speeds from Tier 5 and above.

If anybody objects to this in the next release please let me know real quick because I really like what I'm seeing ...

< Message edited by Sithuk -- 8/5/2014 7:23:06 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/5/2014 6:29:38 AM

hewwo

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+1 on the hyperdrive tweaks!

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/5/2014 6:52:26 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackstork
Hey mate, great job, but i been trying to understand what are the files that relate only to your mod - since you provided full theme i would like to separate files that do changes in order to make some merging experiements/pre-integration tryouts

Is that all racial txt files, all templates, all policies, and components files? Do i miss something?

Yes that's right Blackstork.

The other file in the Vanilla AI Improvement Mod that I have changed in raceBiases.txt. This isn't yet in the Extended version but is coming in the next release.

Depending on what Tcby comes back with, I may also consider changes to governments.txt.

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Post #: 355

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/5/2014 6:59:30 AM

Icemania

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From: Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk
+1

Hi Icemania, I'm looking forward to the tweaks to the hyperdrives. I think on higher research cost games there is an issue with the over-dominance of the pirates in the pre-warp era, which hampers the AI empires as they can't deal with the pirates as effectively as the human player. I'll be interested to see the results of your tests.

What (other) improvements do you foresee for the AI by the hyperdrive tweaks?

Tanaka's observations above match well with what I have seen so far. What I would add to his list is the offensive fleets, without the tweaks I've grown frustrated watching them fly to very distant targets. It won't resolve that problem, but keeping the AI fleets closer to home until more research is done, should help.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/5/2014 8:00:21 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/5/2014 6:59:38 AM

Blackstork

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I'll wait till you finish your work and merge things with you then, its become complicated since i update biases/race files alot in my work, and testing outside my modifications will take me out of advancing with characters and races.
My hat down for job done, ive browsed it and its alot of work mate, queues, optimizing templates) .
I am back to building and art abit, i will just finish pre-integration templates/policies for new races as we discussed, and will anxiously wait till you release final version/become free to advance with additional content and perhaps, if you desire so, peer into character system which is actually another complete rebalance, because denying certain skills on characters/providing abundance of skills/traits on characters for different races could change race gameplay completely.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/5/2014 10:12:32 AM

Icemania

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Fully agree with holding Blackstork and thanks.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.0 Release) - 8/5/2014 2:06:21 PM

Icemania

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I've now included the Racial Bias file changes in the Extended AI Improvement Mod (as described in the OP), so now everything I had in Vanilla will be in the Extended version (when the next release is issued).

I've also tested modified AI Energy Research Build Orders to more strongly reflect the styles of each race i.e. balanced / speed & agility / power / efficiency. In the previous release, while Special Technologies always had focus, the Energy Build Order was fairly generic since I always felt AI Empires that focused on speed/agility were at a disadvantage. However, now that the benefits of hyperdrive research are greater, there is more value is pursuring different paths. As a result you'll see a lot more variety in the AI.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/5/2014 3:08:00 PM >

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Post #: 359

RE: Extended AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 8/5/2014 6:39:20 PM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Small request would it be possible to only include only the files from Extended that you modified and not all the files as I am using a modified Extended version of my own and it makes it hard to figure out which files I need to replace and which files I don't.

The files changed as part of the AI Improvement Mod are:
1. Everything in the "designTemplates", "Policy" and "races" folders
2. components.txt
3. research.txt

I would prefer the theme is used so I can focus my community support on that theme, rather than get caught up in problems that are unrelated to this Mod.

Well I was mostly just using changes to images and governments/wonders and engines but now that I see that you will be balancing those as well (hurrah!) I will not need to worry about those files anymore!

Thanks for looking into the energy changes and governments those were the last things other than world wonders I had hoped for balancing of. Your engine changes sound great!

As a very last request would it be possible to look into balancing world wonders as well? There are several mods out there that worked on governments and wonders so that might help to add or use them if possible. Also adds new ones! I would say balanced governments and wonders help the AI by preventing overpowering issues from happening...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3626244

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3630680

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/5/2014 9:09:07 PM >

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