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Odd Japanese Torpedo Devices. - 8/7/2014 8:41:18 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		First off, Scenario 1. I've not checked the other scenarios, nor the Allied side.



Now, the 18 inch Type 91 (marked in red) is the device equipped to all Japanese planes capable of carrying torpedos.

The 45cm Type 91 Mod series (marked in blue) is what I assume to be the upgrade path to these torpedos. According to a quick Google, the Type 91 modifcations consisted of some minor bodywork changes (with no real impact to the game) and changes to the warhead (important to the game).

This is an issue of mild importance, as the last Type 91(Mod 4) has a higher effect and penetration rating than the preceeding models, and by the time the Mod 4 is avalible (8/44), a Japanese player wants every torpedo hit to do as much damage as possible.

Is this a database error or was upgrading torpedo devices a a part of the game that the devs never got around to finishing? The inconsistancy in naming (the imperial to metric measurement switch) suggets the latter.

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 8/7/2014 9:43:04 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Odd Japanese Torpedo Devices. - 8/7/2014 9:32:00 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		None of the above.

AE was developed by three different teams under the overall leadership of Jwilkerson.  Each team adopted slightly different solutions to similar issues.  Best seen in the different approaches adopted towards withdrawing units.  The land team just makes withdrawing LCUs go "poof" without any player intervention, the air team requires player intervention to manually initiate the process, the naval team imposed certain restrictions as to where and condition necessary for manual withdrawal initiation.  These differences are not capricious because there are sound reasons why the solutions are different, but different they are.

The same applies here.  The imperial nomenclature comes courtesy of the air team, the metric nomenclature from the naval team.  Thus your red torpedo does not upgrade to any of the blue torpedoes.  Different service families.  The red torpedo does not upgrade, period.

The other trick to be aware of is that the database often retains "devices" from classical WITP which are not employed in any official AE scenario.

As to the value of a google search.  You can rest assured that the devs did not base any of their work on google.  They used source documents and then exercised their judgement in making things consistent within the abstraction.  Often the oh so little return from massive coding/consistency work required just to fit in essentially cosmetic changes was deemed just not worth it.  Remember the level of abstraction required to make the game playable.  So whilst I am just guessing, I really doubt that the devs overlooked this.

Alfred 

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 2
RE: Odd Japanese Torpedo Devices. - 8/7/2014 9:55:39 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
The same applies here.  The imperial nomenclature comes courtesy of the air team, the metric nomenclature from the naval team.  Thus your red torpedo does not upgrade to any of the blue torpedoes.  Different service families.  The red torpedo does not upgrade, period.


Perhaps this is something that can be added on a beta patch, as the IJN made two modifications to the Type 91 during the war.

quote:

The other trick to be aware of is that the database often retains "devices" from classical WITP which are not employed in any official AE scenario.


I'm aware of that, but I don't have vannila WITP to compare.

quote:

As to the value of a google search. You can rest assured that the devs did not base any of their work on google. They used source documents and then exercised their judgement in making things consistent within the abstraction. Often the oh so little return from massive coding/consistency work required just to fit in essentially cosmetic changes was deemed just not worth it. Remember the level of abstraction required to make the game playable. So whilst I am just guessing, I really doubt that the devs overlooked this.


Yes, there's abstraction and a lot of thought behind every decision. I'm aware of that.

That's not the point, though. The dev team has went to the effort of gathering data on these torpedos and translating it into game terms, but there's no way for them to be used in any of the vannila campaigns.

If there's a reason these devices can't upgrade (say, an engine limitation for air units), then fair enough. Otherwise, why are they even in the database?

It seems like they've went and installed the fancy wall-mounted TV, but forgot to plug it in.

(in reply to Alfred)
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RE: Odd Japanese Torpedo Devices. - 8/7/2014 9:59:47 PM   
CapnGreasy

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/17/2011
Status: offline 		On the lighter side of things... The Kaiten works somewhat and ironically late war is the only way any IJN sailor leaves a sub alive.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 4
RE: Odd Japanese Torpedo Devices. - 8/7/2014 10:15:35 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Things are left in the database for the benefit of modders generating their own scenarios.  Also a question of why engage in additional work to clear out entries oif the slot is not required.

As to devices not upgrading, there are many, not just your torpedoes, that simply do not.  Again I would only be speculating but I will always accept the devs conclusions over what a google search discloses.  For example did your google search disclose that your blue torpedoes were actually carried by aircraft at any stage.  Were they carried by the aircraft models deployed in the game.  There is a difference between air delivered and water delivered torpedoes.

Bottom line is that device #101 is a naval device and device #1686 is an air device and therefore are not interchangeable.  As to the rest of the #16xx series you would need an air team AE dev to give a definitive answer and they don't pop into the forum that often.  If they are legacy devices from classical WITP then they were not researched by the AE air team.  In any case you will not see it addressed in a beta patch which is exe only, not database.

Alfred

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 5
RE: Odd Japanese Torpedo Devices. - 8/7/2014 10:29:19 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
As to devices not upgrading, there are many, not just your torpedoes, that simply do not.  Again I would only be speculating but I will always accept the devs conclusions over what a google search discloses.  For example did your google search disclose that your blue torpedoes were actually carried by aircraft at any stage.  Were they carried by the aircraft models deployed in the game.  There is a difference between air delivered and water delivered torpedoes.


The game has the Type 91 18inch torpedo as the torpedo being used by every torpedo carrying plane in the Japanese arsenal. The dev's decided that the base model was good enough for IJ aircraft. My question is why doesn't the base model upgrade?

Don't take my word for it, or the developers, read for yourself (second entry onwards) - http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTJAP_WWII.htm

Unlike some (not you, Alfy), I do make an effort to do some reading before blindly making a post.

quote:

Bottom line is that device #101 is a naval device and device #1686 is an air device and therefore are not interchangeable. As to the rest of the #16xx series you would need an air team AE dev to give a definitive answer and they don't pop into the forum that often. If they are legacy devices from classical WITP then they were not researched by the AE air team. In any case you will not see it addressed in a beta patch which is exe only, not database.


Device #101 is NOT an naval device. No ship (that I could see) uses it in game. Yet every single IJ aircraft that can be equipped with torpedos carries it.

Device #1686 would then logically also be an air device, as it's an upgrade to device #101.

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 8/7/2014 11:30:54 PM >

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 6
RE: Odd Japanese Torpedo Devices. - 8/7/2014 10:33:16 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		My mistake,  I inverted #101 and #1686.  One is air and the other is naval so irrespective of what you think they are not interchangeable in this game.

Alfred

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 7
RE: Odd Japanese Torpedo Devices. - 8/7/2014 10:35:09 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

My mistake,  I inverted #101 and #1686.  One is air and the other is naval so irrespective of what you think they are not interchangeable in this game.

Alfred


I thought you meant device #1688. #1686 is not a torpedo I have an issue with.

#1688 is a development of device #101

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 8/7/2014 11:36:08 PM >

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 8
RE: Odd Japanese Torpedo Devices. - 8/9/2014 8:23:46 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		Any chance of a response of someone "in the know" in regards to air device upgrades?

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 9
RE: Odd Japanese Torpedo Devices. - 8/28/2014 5:04:09 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

My mistake,  I inverted #101 and #1686.  One is air and the other is naval so irrespective of what you think they are not interchangeable in this game.

Alfred


Why would #101 and #1686 be interchangeable? They're cleary different torpedos.

I'm asking why #101 doesn't upgrade to #1688, which is a clear evolution of device #101

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 10
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