Advice needed plz, Khark Island raid

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Advice needed plz, Khark Island raid - 8/8/2014 9:34:40 AM

pcoud

Posts: 40
Joined: 3/10/2011
Status: offline

Hi all,
My first post here. Bought the game a couple of weeks ago. I am not at all an expert in military matters, EW, radars, missiles etc, and English is not my mothertongue, so... it's a bit of a challenge

. I went through the tutorials, then started to have quite some fun with a number of scenarios. Then i tried Khark Island raid (which is given as being of average difficulty

)... My very best (and only) ranking (after numerous tries) is "disaster"

. I am clueless on what should be the best way to deal with this mission? Would anyone provide me with some advice?
1) what is the best way to go the target? Should I fly my fitters and floggers at high altitude or at sea level? If I fly high I get detected and engaged by Iranian aircrafts (and I'd better get them with my mid range APEX missiles, because if they get close enough to use their sidewinders, I'm usually dead). If I fly low, I can possibly remain undetected until I get to the island, but I am under the impression that my fuel consumption is much higher, and sometimes my fitters go bingo fuel before having even reached the target (!)
2) Once close to Khark, how should you deal with the SAM battery that is there (I'm just terrorized to go there now

)? Is there any way to minimize losses, or do you just have your fitters to carry on with the land strike and pray? Or maybe should you use the floggers as baits, so that most fitters can reach the target? However, I always get very badly hurt, very few fitters can ever reach the target, and inflict very minimum damage. Is there a best way to approach the target? What level of losses would you consider as "standard" in this mission?

Any help / advice very appreciated. Thx!

Post #: 1

RE: Advice needed plz, Khark Island raid - 8/8/2014 12:40:00 PM

renders

Posts: 1208
Joined: 8/13/2013
From: italy bologna
Status: offline

khark island is a hell of a scenario. never won too

_____________________________

(in reply to pcoud)

Post #: 2

RE: Advice needed plz, Khark Island raid - 8/8/2014 1:39:29 PM

Pergite!

Posts: 546
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: The temperate climate zone
Status: offline

I believe I have beaten this scenario on occasion.

My tactics is as follows:

Mass your floggers and use them as a BARCAP (Barrier Combat Air Patrol) blocking off and effectively sucking in every Iranian fighter that tries to head south over the gulf. Use max altitude and radars on, I dont think the enemy cares. If you are lucky (as I apparently have been) these fighters will down every single Iranian fighter launched. If they don�t then they will probably not survive and the mission will indeed become a disaster. I believe EMCON isn't an issue since you are detected by Iranian radar pretty much from the start, and the aim for the BARCAP is tie up any fighter, effectively dislocating the Iranian air intercepts from their real task of protecting the Khark Island (intercepting the strike package).

The Fitters are your strike package. Send these guys on a southerly course above the gulf. Give them some altitude to conserve fuel but be sure that your BARCAP does its job, otherwise they will get screwed. When close to the HAWK range (put some reference markers in a radius 22nm from the island (it would have been great to manually/classify/add or draw range rings on the map)) go as low as possible. IIRC the HAWK have problems engaging low flying targets (either way you will receive some kind of sea-skimming bonus in the PH calculations). The key in all this now is that the surviving Floggers will have to be micro managed, just on the maximum range of the HAWK in order to draw fire from it. As soon as a launch is detected (watch for illumination radars) turn on afterburners and dive out of range, rendering the missile ineffective when it loses its energy in pursuit. With any luck this is timed with the fitters ingress to target, so that the HAWKS just have empty mounts and in the process of reloading.

The fitters can not stay low over water for ever, since their bombs has to be delivered from roughly 300m. Keep it as fast as possible while doing this minimizing time for the AAA and SAMs to get at you. In the meantime continue to work with your floggers making Iran wasting its SAMs (a somewhat gamey tactic, but it apparently works IRL). If you are patient enough you could probably make the trigger happy AI empty their whole stock of missiles on the island during the five hour time frame of the scenario. In that case its just for the fitters to fly in above AAA altitude (>5000m)and safety drop their bombs.

Anyway, remember that if your fighters fail their job of achieving air superiority, then you are pretty much doomed.

Good luck!

(in reply to renders)

Post #: 3

RE: Advice needed plz, Khark Island raid - 8/8/2014 2:32:37 PM

Pergite!

Posts: 546
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: The temperate climate zone
Status: offline

The stuff I wrote looked to good to be true, so I had to try it out again:

Minor Defeat (200p)

In my book it looks like a minor victory. Would I had micro managed the actual strike I would probably have been able to destroy more than a jetty, that now when reading the log I realise was totally overkilled .

SIDE: Iraq
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
3x MiG-23ML Flogger G
4x Su-22M-3K Fitter J

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
6x 23mm Gsh-23L Burst [40 rnds]
2x 30mm NR-30 x 2 Burst [20 rnds]
12x AA-7 Apex C [R-24R, SARH]
11x AA-8 Aphid [R-60T]
8x FAB-500M-54 GPB
6x Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]
3x Generic Flare Salvo [2x Cartridges, Single Spectral]

SIDE: Iran
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
2x F-4D Phantom II
2x F-4E Phantom II
4x F-5E Tiger II
1x Structure (Naval Dock)

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
1x 20mm M39 x 2 Burst [80 rnds]
1x 20mm/85 M61A1 Vulcan Burst [100 rnds]
40x 23mm ZU-23-2 Burst [20 rnds]
16x AIM-7E2 Sparrow III
4x AIM-9N Sidewinder
2x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
2x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
20x MIM-23B I-HAWK

< Message edited by Pergite! -- 8/8/2014 3:33:28 PM >

(in reply to Pergite!)

Post #: 4

RE: Advice needed plz, Khark Island raid - 8/8/2014 7:12:19 PM

pcoud

Posts: 40
Joined: 3/10/2011
Status: offline

Thx a lot! At least I understand it is not an easy scenario at all, to say the least... I'll try again but I'm really having a hard time, even "just" for air superiority... If I may ask, in your last attempt, how many fitters made it to the target?

(in reply to Pergite!)

Post #: 5

RE: Advice needed plz, Khark Island raid - 8/8/2014 8:07:40 PM

Pergite!

Posts: 546
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: The temperate climate zone
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pcoud

Thx a lot! At least I understand it is not an easy scenario at all, to say the least... I'll try again but I'm really having a hard time, even "just" for air superiority... If I may ask, in your last attempt, how many fitters made it to the target?

Just two of six made it alive both to and from the target. It's pretty much down to luck regarding which sides missile gets the hits in the initial air-air combat and win the air superiority for the moment. In my last try above, two phantoms got away and was responsible for all but one Fitter kill. This in turn made them vulnerable for my fighters getting on their six with IR missiles. I don't want to go into a numbers game but it might increase the overall odds for mission success if one would sacrifice some Fitters as targets for the Sparrow missiles. A lousy job for those pilots though, and a risk of not having enough bombs left to drop on the actual target.

With all different variables this game/sim has to offer, even the simplest mission can have enormous depth.

(in reply to pcoud)

Post #: 6

RE: Advice needed plz, Khark Island raid - 8/9/2014 12:03:24 PM

pcoud

Posts: 40
Joined: 3/10/2011
Status: offline

Wow !!! I made a Triumph, 700 pts ! (of course, I cheated quite a bit, at least 4/5 reloads, but still...

)

SIDE: Iraq
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
4x MiG-23ML Flogger G
1x Su-22M-3K Fitter J

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
12x AA-7 Apex C [R-24R, SARH]
9x AA-8 Aphid [R-60T]
5x 23mm Gsh-23L Burst [40 rnds]
20x FAB-500M-54 GPB
5x 30mm NR-30 x 2 Burst [20 rnds]

SIDE: Iran
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
4x F-5E Tiger II
2x F-4E Phantom II
2x F-4D Phantom II
1x Structure (Naval Dock)
1x Structure (Oil Refinery)
2x Diesel (750k Liter Tank)

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
12x AIM-7E2 Sparrow III
3x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
3x 20mm M39 x 2 Burst [80 rnds]
4x Sea Cat Mod 1
11x 114mm/55 Mk8 HE(MP) HE
19x MIM-23B I-HAWK
9x Rapier Mk1
120x 23mm ZU-23-2 Burst [20 rnds]

You're right Pergite, you need quite some luck, and you need to achieve air superiority, otherwise... All my Fitters made it to the target (All Hawks were reloading. I got attacked by Rapiers I had never seen on the island before and only one Fitter got shot (very lucky)).
There is one important thing I don't understand though: how do you use the FAB-500M-54 GPBs? More specifically, what should be the optimum release altitude?
The database says "launch altitude 1000-65000 ft, range 1nm".
I don't get that.
1) is the launch altitude given above ground or above sea level (i guess above ground)?
2) how can you possibly achieve 1nm range if you release at 65000ft?
3) I was unable to launch the FABs manually, I got messages like "the horizontal range is greater than the vertical range", or the other way round, I am not sure anymore? Finally I used the mission editor with the auto planner to perform the final land strike as I couldn't micromanage it.
4) another thing a bit confusing: when you prepare the mission and look at the Fitters with their FAB loadout in the Air Ops window, it is said: "attack altitude: 60.96m (typical)"?

Bottom line: how can we determine the correct / optimum launch altitude for those bombs?

Many thx.

(in reply to Pergite!)

Post #: 7

RE: Advice needed plz, Khark Island raid - 8/9/2014 3:47:56 PM

Pergite!

Posts: 546
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: The temperate climate zone
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pcoud

You're right Pergite, you need quite some luck, and you need to achieve air superiority, otherwise... All my Fitters made it to the target (All Hawks were reloading. I got attacked by Rapiers I had never seen on the island before and only one Fitter got shot (very lucky)).
There is one important thing I don't understand though: how do you use the FAB-500M-54 GPBs? More specifically, what should be the optimum release altitude?
The database says "launch altitude 1000-65000 ft, range 1nm".
I don't get that.
1) is the launch altitude given above ground or above sea level (i guess above ground)?
2) how can you possibly achieve 1nm range if you release at 65000ft?
3) I was unable to launch the FABs manually, I got messages like "the horizontal range is greater than the vertical range", or the other way round, I am not sure anymore? Finally I used the mission editor with the auto planner to perform the final land strike as I couldn't micromanage it.
4) another thing a bit confusing: when you prepare the mission and look at the Fitters with their FAB loadout in the Air Ops window, it is said: "attack altitude: 60.96m (typical)"?

Bottom line: how can we determine the correct / optimum launch altitude for those bombs?

1) Just consider it the altitude above the target regardless if it is a ship (sea level) or tank (ground level).

2) Range is the lateral distance to the target. There are a lot of different bombing techniques, and the range is effective range i.e that you actually hit what you aim at. From 65000ft you will need to dive bomb to get just 1nm. From 1000ft I believe that you have to toss bomb or do something even more aerobatic.

3) Your speed and altitude deterimines the range and when you need to drop your bomb in order to hit. The lower you are the closer to the target you need to be to drop your bomb. The bomb don't just drop straight down (unless they are heavily retarder by chutes). Your aircraft speed transfers as residual speed to the bomb. The more time it gets in the air before impacting, the farther it goes. See this animation regarding the vertical (gravity) and horizontal (speed) forces involved to to see what I am rambling about:

It would be nice if the range rings for ballistic weapons in general could change to take height and speed into consideration, but I understand that it would strain the engine even further.

4) I have no clue to about the 60.96m. The odd numbers just comes from its conversion from 200ft, but its still too low for the bombs. Maybe its just the guns that have been added to the calculation? My all time favourite bombing technique would probably work at that altitude, if you flew fast enough.

(in reply to pcoud)

Post #: 8

RE: Advice needed plz, Khark Island raid - 8/9/2014 3:57:27 PM

Pergite!

Posts: 546
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: The temperate climate zone
Status: offline

I don't recall any rapiers, so I launched it up in the editor and found that it was a random event. Those things are really great for adding re-playability. I just wish that there could be a logic or scripting function involved in the event editor, for example to prevent that all random events fire at once.

(in reply to Pergite!)

Post #: 9

RE: Advice needed plz, Khark Island raid - 8/9/2014 7:50:49 PM

pcoud

Posts: 40
Joined: 3/10/2011
Status: offline

Thx a lot for your replies, I appreciate.
Your all time favourite bombing technique is a killer, it will make my cmano life much easier from now on

I was aware of what you are explaining with the animation, but it still does not tell me what would be the appropriate launch altitude for the FABs. I did not make extensive testing but when I tried to launch them manually, trying various altitudes, I just failed. The auto planner eventually did it for me, but I did not really understood how. I'll have to re-play it, I have a save just before the land strike.

(in reply to Pergite!)

Post #: 10