RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds 1 Series >> Design and Modding >> RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/21/2014 10:48:10 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hikikomori
I am scared enough already.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jethro420
Here's a thought... wouldn't it help if you could let the AI have these awesome starting systems and let the human select another option? Methinks that's a very simple one to implement. Might wanna put it on yer wishlist, amigo. ;)

You can do that in settings already amigo!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Haha good point I actually thought you had redone all the designs! Did you do just the ships?

They were all redesigned but I didn't change every component and focused on those that would make a difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Yeah it really sucks when pirates find a high tech derelict ship. I wish it were possible to mod all derelicts out of the game! Its game breaking when you find it or they do!

I think it's great to have some "oh sh*t" moments. But the solution is easy, just pay them off temporarily, nothing game breaking at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Hmm maybe a bug in the mod I increased my homeworld from harsh to normal and I started out with 30 explorers! All settings on starting...

No bug, the priority of exploration has been increased. It's the first thing I do in a game as well ... there should be competition for the goodies around the galaxy.

(in reply to Hikikomori)

Post #: 451

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/21/2014 11:02:17 AM

Hikikomori

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hikikomori
I am scared enough already.

I think it's great to have some "oh sh*t" moments. But the solution is easy, just pay them off temporarily, nothing game breaking at all.

If the game starts to become too easy, by which i mean i do not have to struggle for bare survival, i tend to start anew with higher settings, new mods like yours and the like.

But pirates on a prewarp start are just too mean for me, and they bankrupt me sometimes with what they are asking for, especially combined.

With more experience in dealing with them i may upgrade them a little, but pirates should be a nuisance in my opinion, not rivalling empires in their strength, so i am not going to profit all that much from improvements there.
It is nice to have the additional difficulty modifier for later though.

When i have time i really need to play as one.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 452

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/21/2014 11:10:42 AM

Icemania

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It's a matter of taste Hikkomori.

I find a galaxy with Pirates to be very immersive, in fact it was the Shadows release that prompted really getting into the game. That said, I also enjoy Empire focused games, so it's nice for us to be able to mix it up to suit.

Do you cancel Pirate protection agreements as soon as they warp away from your systems?

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Post #: 453

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/21/2014 11:22:39 AM

Hikikomori

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

It's a matter of taste Hikkomori.

I find a galaxy with Pirates to be very immersive, in fact it was the Shadows release that prompted really getting into the game. That said, I also enjoy Empire focused games, so it's nice for us to be able to mix it up to suit.

Do you cancel Pirate protection agreements as soon as they warp away from your systems?

I started to do that a few games after the aforementioned, i usually wait a little. At first i thought they would come right back and show me the errors of my ways, but they are usually away for a while. I do not come far all that often on my settings, but i have already noticed that they tend to fall of later on, only getting on my nerves with their raids.

So yeah, i might challenge my fears after all and notch them up a bit.

If i get creamed again i will hold you responsible though!

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 454

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/21/2014 11:27:20 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hikikomori
If i get creamed again i will hold you responsible though!

If you get creamed again you SHALL post more screenshots!

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/21/2014 12:27:55 PM >

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Post #: 455

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/21/2014 3:04:09 PM

Jethro420

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jethro420

Here's a thought... wouldn't it help if you could let the AI have these awesome starting systems and let the human select another option? Methinks that's a very simple one to implement. Might wanna put it on yer wishlist, amigo. ;)

Well what I love about this mod is it is about improving the AI without any cheats. So I can play on normal difficulty because I prefer a non cheating AI. But you can always give yourself harsh homeworld and the AI's super homeworlds in the game options.

Is there a way to give me one kind of home system and the AI another? I only see one universal setting in the options.

I understand the AI more or less needs a good starting system because its resource acquisition is poor, especially in the early game. But, when I get hold of one of those systems, it almost feels like I'm cheating. Know what I mean?

I've been trying to get a good game from this mod for the last couple of days. I had some bad luck, though. In one game everything was cool and some pirates showed up with a capital ship before I even had cruisers. That didn't end well. In another, I had one of those research setbacks - when I had almost finished warp bubble research. I played it until I got Gerax drives and colonization. By the time I had my second colony up, one of my neighbors had 25. I decided that one was beyond salvage, also. So, I'm gonna give it another shot today.

I'm taking lots of screenshots and thinking of doing an AAR pointed at new players. We'll see...

< Message edited by Jethro420 -- 8/21/2014 4:04:44 PM >

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 456

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/21/2014 6:54:38 PM

Tanaka

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quote:

I think it's great to have some "oh sh*t" moments. But the solution is easy, just pay them off temporarily, nothing game breaking at all.

At some point the pirates do stop letting you pay them off though!

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/21/2014 8:01:23 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 457

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/21/2014 6:56:47 PM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hikikomori

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hikikomori
I am scared enough already.

I think it's great to have some "oh sh*t" moments. But the solution is easy, just pay them off temporarily, nothing game breaking at all.

If the game starts to become too easy, by which i mean i do not have to struggle for bare survival, i tend to start anew with higher settings, new mods like yours and the like.

But pirates on a prewarp start are just too mean for me, and they bankrupt me sometimes with what they are asking for, especially combined.

With more experience in dealing with them i may upgrade them a little, but pirates should be a nuisance in my opinion, not rivalling empires in their strength, so i am not going to profit all that much from improvements there.
It is nice to have the additional difficulty modifier for later though.

When i have time i really need to play as one.

This can be easily adjusted to what you want in the options by setting to very weak and very few pirates. They will then just be the nuisance you want. Unless they get a high tech derelict ship! Then there is not much you can do about that early game!

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/21/2014 8:14:20 PM >

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Post #: 458

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/21/2014 7:09:47 PM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jethro420

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jethro420

Here's a thought... wouldn't it help if you could let the AI have these awesome starting systems and let the human select another option? Methinks that's a very simple one to implement. Might wanna put it on yer wishlist, amigo. ;)

Well what I love about this mod is it is about improving the AI without any cheats. So I can play on normal difficulty because I prefer a non cheating AI. But you can always give yourself harsh homeworld and the AI's super homeworlds in the game options.

Is there a way to give me one kind of home system and the AI another? I only see one universal setting in the options.

I understand the AI more or less needs a good starting system because its resource acquisition is poor, especially in the early game. But, when I get hold of one of those systems, it almost feels like I'm cheating. Know what I mean?

I've been trying to get a good game from this mod for the last couple of days. I had some bad luck, though. In one game everything was cool and some pirates showed up with a capital ship before I even had cruisers. That didn't end well. In another, I had one of those research setbacks - when I had almost finished warp bubble research. I played it until I got Gerax drives and colonization. By the time I had my second colony up, one of my neighbors had 25. I decided that one was beyond salvage, also. So, I'm gonna give it another shot today.

I'm taking lots of screenshots and thinking of doing an AAR pointed at new players. We'll see...

Its not in the main options its in the Other Empires setup. Uncheck the autogenerate box. Yeah Im facing some pirate capital ships right now and I can only build cruisers only because I have been able to steal tech at will. Cant really afford to build them though because I am playing harsh homeworlds. Pirates definitely seem to be able to research faster. Something I find that helps is to destroy all of their mining stations if you can find them. Their space station is another story though. I actually play with normal homeworlds or lower for all and I find the AI does just fine currently with all of the updates and this new mod. Back in the day the AI could not handle it though.

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/21/2014 8:15:12 PM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/21/2014 9:33:04 PM

Jethro420

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Yeah, I'm loving the challenge! Most games are easily mastered and quickly grow dull. This will play for years, though.

I'm in!

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Post #: 460

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/21/2014 9:39:55 PM

Euler

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Icemania I just want to say thank you to you and all the modders for doing such a great job. I am going to take the plunge and download your AI mod as part of BlackStork's tomorrow. I know I'm gonna get killed!

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Post #: 461

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 2:05:47 AM

Tanaka

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Ok here is a screenie. Not amazing to look at but what is really cool is three things. I found one of those super high tech derelict ships which I usually mop the map with. But three firsts are happening for me that Ive never seen before. The pirates are beating me with their designs against my super tech ship and also using fighters against me! Im having to run! This after they raided the planet in the pic with 20,000 raiders against my 20,000 troops. I may lose the planet to pirates as well!

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< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/22/2014 3:08:39 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 8:20:39 AM

Tanaka

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Another first for me! Galactic World War! Everybody and I mean everybody is at war with another because of all of the mutual defense treaties. Very WWW1 like! Fantastic! This mod makes the whole universe come alive!

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< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/22/2014 9:22:24 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 10:06:05 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Ok here is a screenie. Not amazing to look at but what is really cool is three things. I found one of those super high tech derelict ships which I usually mop the map with. But three firsts are happening for me that Ive never seen before. The pirates are beating me with their designs against my super tech ship and also using fighters against me! Im having to run! This after they raided the planet in the pic with 20,000 raiders against my 20,000 troops. I may lose the planet to pirates as well!

Thanks for the screenshots Tanaka, really appreciated!

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Post #: 464

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 3:20:46 PM

Icemania

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For those struggling with Extreme Difficulty with the AI Improvement Mod I'll post some screenshots from a current game that might help.

The settings are:
� Normal Empire Age of Shadows
� Irregular, 1000 Stars, 10 x 10 Sectors
� Pre Warp Start, Extreme Difficulty, Difficulty Scales Near Victory
� Restless Aggression
� Very Many Strong Pirates, Nearby Distance, No Respawn allowed
� Many Space Creatures
� Expensive Research
� Normal Colonies and Normal Independent Life
� No Colonisation Range Limit
� Excellent Homeworld, Starting, Pre-Warp, Normal Corruption, Centre
� 19 Empires, Excellent Homeworld, Pre-Warp
� Victory Threshold 80%, conditions increased to 50% for Territory, Population and Economy

The house rules are:
� No Homeworld Invasions are permitted until the 30 year mark and no use of sneaky fast troop transports
� Diplomacy may not be used to farm cash in any way (i.e. technology trading, selling stations/bases or sanctions/war)
� Intelligence Agents must remain on Counter Intelligence duties
� Recovered ships must be retired
� Debris field ships may not be recovered until they are within my territorial influence
� Ship and Base Design is on Automatic almost always
� Exploration ships must be on Automatic, no micro
� Research is on Automatic (although there is a trick if anyone can pick it)
� Cannot attack the Eruktah Refugees until they reveal themselves as the Shakturi

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/25/2014 4:03:42 PM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 3:22:21 PM

Icemania

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 3:23:06 PM

Icemania

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 3:24:13 PM

Icemania

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 3:25:41 PM

Icemania

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 3:26:36 PM

Icemania

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 3:27:27 PM

Icemania

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 3:28:16 PM

Icemania

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 3:29:05 PM

Icemania

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 3:29:57 PM

Icemania

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 3:30:25 PM

Unbroken

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I've played a couple games using the mod, mostly as the Ikkuro.

One of the big things I've noticed is that the AI has a terrible habit of spamming new colonies everywhere when it does not have the capacity to defend or support all of its new turf. This tends to give the pirates an absolute field day, letting them become very strong, while kneecapping the AI economically.

On a better note, in a different game I faced down a Securan carrier for the first time, and it was an utter pain to kill. Fighter swarms were pretty effective against my Velocity Shard-toting fleet that time, although I crushed their homeworld bases through sheer force of numbers. I've also had a few fairly expansive wars break out, but little ever seems to come of them. I've yet to see the AI take a colony from another AI, even if its some 30M pop backwater.

I also noticed the AI having some tunnel-vision issues with its research order on expensive-level research. My closest non-insect neighbour in one game, the Kiadians, had worked very hard on getting to Plasma Thunderbolt II - but they neglected to bother researching anything better than fission reactors. I have no clue how the AI could support such a power-hog weapon with basic reactor tech. They also seem to have never bothered with any shields beyond the initial Corvidian I's (also, this game is in 2156 due to the colony spam deflating my territory score - they originally didn't even have Fission when I attacked them a while back).

I've highlighted the final tech in the torp tree that I have in red, the second level fission in green, second level shield in purple, and the second-level speedy-engine in yellow/orange. I understand if this was a part of the Kiadian plan, but their ships are fairly gimpy, despite having size 600 construction (not listed since we are at parity there) - their capships only had 1000 shields, while mine ran almost 3000 using Deucalios IIs, fed by Hyperfusion I reactors.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 3:31:04 PM

Icemania

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#10

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 3:45:09 PM

Unbroken

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I checked a few other AI empires in that game, and most of them have gone a fair distance into their preferred weapon trees, but almost none of them bothered with decent reactors or shield tech. Only the Quameno seem to have gone some distance into critical branches, but they're the Quameno (and pretty weak due to a flatlined economy here). Some AIs have chosen to research the third upgrade to their chosen hyperdrive, which doesn't seem to be helping them much by consuming needless Energy research when there's more pressing tech to get such as better reactors.

On the other hand, I found the Ackdarians with the Haakonish fuel cell tech. Someone's been busy!

I also saw that another Ikkuro empire researched both Swift Repairs and Damage Control, which is redundant given how the repair bot smokes damage control in every way.

The pirates seem to also have spent their time researching Colonization techs. I have no idea why. Overall, their tech is better in some ways than the empires, but worse in others.

Anyways, I hope all this helps with smoothing the mod out some more. It's been a big step up from vanilla, where the AI preferred to roll over and play dead in most situations.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 4:04:36 PM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Unbroken
One of the big things I've noticed is that the AI has a terrible habit of spamming new colonies everywhere when it does not have the capacity to defend or support all of its new turf. This tends to give the pirates an absolute field day, letting them become very strong, while kneecapping the AI economically.

I appreciate the point. I could reduce colonisation priority. However, what difficulty are you playing on? On higher difficulties they have no shortage of cash.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unbroken
On a better note, in a different game I faced down a Securan carrier for the first time, and it was an utter pain to kill. Fighter swarms were pretty effective against my Velocity Shard-toting fleet that time, although I crushed their homeworld bases through sheer force of numbers. I've also had a few fairly expansive wars break out, but little ever seems to come of them. I've yet to see the AI take a colony from another AI, even if its some 30M pop backwater.

I've seen the AI take other colonies plenty of times, but yes they are not particularly focused with it. Not much I can mod here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unbroken
I also noticed the AI having some tunnel-vision issues with its research order on expensive-level research. My closest non-insect neighbour in one game, the Kiadians, had worked very hard on getting to Plasma Thunderbolt II - but they neglected to bother researching anything better than fission reactors. I have no clue how the AI could support such a power-hog weapon with basic reactor tech. They also seem to have never bothered with any shields beyond the initial Corvidian I's (also, this game is in 2156 due to the colony spam deflating my territory score - they originally didn't even have Fission when I attacked them a while back).

In an earlier version of the Mod the Energy Research Orders looked pretty similar between the races. It was becoming bland as every race used pretty much the same technologies in the Energy Research Tree.

As you probably know in this Mod there is a wider variety of weapon types in use i.e. it's not as dominated by beams and torpedoes there is a pretty balanced mix. There was also quite a lot of variety in HighTech, due to the different wonder and colonisation focuses. I felt similar variety was needed with Energy.

What I noticed is that Elliot has set different focuses for the races e.g. have a look in the race files. Specifically Speed/Agility, Power, Balanced or Efficiency. So I designed Energy Research Order to reflects those preferences with variations thereof for special technologies.

So if you look across some of the races using Torpedoes:

The Kiadian Energy focus is on Speed/Agility. While they will need more reactors to power their ships, you should find them relatively fast, and better able to standoff. If you play with short-range weapons and say with a power focus, they can be quite annoying.

The Zenox Energy focus is on Efficiency. This is a variation of a Balanced approach but the efficient technologies are used. The Research Order is modified to ensure they get their special technology shields quickly though.

The Boskarans Energy focus on Power which includes a focus on Shields.

Other races are Balanced. Some mix Torpedoes with Fighter/Bombers. And so on.

As a result, when a race comes at you with Torpedoes, there is variety.

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Post #: 478

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 4:14:48 PM

Unbroken

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I was playing on Hard. I can see how on Extreme it wouldn't run into a cash shortage, but I felt like seeing an Ackdarian empire with 20+ colonies and only 24B total population being spread a little thinly. Some empires didn't go colony-happy, but I think it was because they didn't get to build their colony ships quickly enough due to a lack of cash.

The different approaches to a weapon tree are nice, but I was under the impression that feeding a bank of PTbolts and thirsty engines with insufficient reactor energy would force a ship to either move or fire, not both simultaneously, or have other problems such as no shield regen. I did note the Securans using a torpedo bomber setup, which was nice to see - I mainly wondered about the effects of insufficient energy on a combat vessel in the manner the AI seemed to be forcing itself to do.

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Post #: 479

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/22/2014 4:18:09 PM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Unbroken
I checked a few other AI empires in that game, and most of them have gone a fair distance into their preferred weapon trees, but almost none of them bothered with decent reactors or shield tech. Only the Quameno seem to have gone some distance into critical branches, but they're the Quameno (and pretty weak due to a flatlined economy here). Some AIs have chosen to research the third upgrade to their chosen hyperdrive, which doesn't seem to be helping them much by consuming needless Energy research when there's more pressing tech to get such as better reactors.

This will depend on the races you happened to look at.

All races have a fairly similar early focus through to Rapid Assembly and Robotic Repairs because it's essential for the AI to be competitive.

Beyond that, races that have a Power focus will do a lot with Reactors/Shields before they do anything else. Races with a Balanced/Efficient focus will do Shields/Reactors next but mix it up. Speed/Agility races will do a lot with Engines/Thrusters/Drives before they do anything else.

Have a look at "AI Improvement Mod.xls" or "Extended AI Improvement Mod.xls".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unbroken
I also saw that another Ikkuro empire researched both Swift Repairs and Damage Control, which is redundant given how the repair bot smokes damage control in every way.

The Ikkuro do not have Damage Control in their Research Build Orders. Damage Control may have been a result of a retired ship or some of the limited AI trading from an Alliance partner.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unbroken
The pirates seem to also have spent their time researching Colonization techs. I have no idea why. Overall, their tech is better in some ways than the empires, but worse in others.

The race files are common for Pirates and Empires. Modders have no way to set a different research path using the Research Build Order approach this Mod is based on. Otherwise, I can assure you, I would have!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unbroken
Anyways, I hope all this helps with smoothing the mod out some more. It's been a big step up from vanilla, where the AI preferred to roll over and play dead in most situations.

Cheers!

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/22/2014 5:26:38 PM >

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