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HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/2/2014 8:25:53 PM

Jim D Burns

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Paradox is going downhill fast as far as wargamers are concerned. Listen to Johan�s statements at about 1:30 in the video. Prettier and easier is their main design goals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxGNpPz_W2A#t=117

I watched about half of this, not one mention about historical accuracy. A guess would be it took less than 1 minute real time to conquer Poland. I just don�t see the fun in a game like this.

Edit: OMFG I watched the rest of it... To quote Johan at about 14:50, "This is kind of awesome, everyone wants to customize their own ships. The bigger the guns, the bigger the navy, and the more chance you win the war.".

AAARRRGGGHHH!!!

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 9/2/2014 9:37:56 PM >

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/2/2014 8:44:35 PM

Aurelian

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I think they stopped caring about historical accuracy long ago. They're more into sandbox now.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/2/2014 8:52:29 PM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Paradox is going downhill fast as far as wargamers are concerned. Listen to Johan�s statements at about 1:30 in the video. Prettier and easier is their main design goals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxGNpPz_W2A#t=117

I watched about half of this, not one mention about historical accuracy. A guess would be it took less than 1 minute real time to conquer Poland. I just don�t see the fun in a game like this.

Edit: OMFG I watched the rest of it... To quote Johan at about 14:50, "This is kind of awesome, everyone wants to customize their own ships. The bigger the guns, the bigger the navy, and the more chance you win the war.".

AAARRRGGGHHH!!!

Jim

Lol Jim are you just now realizing HOI is a kids game? Paradox moved to kids games many years ago. I mean CK2 is more like The Sims than it is a historiacal replay of the times. I mean seriously assassinations are only 50g and the forum posts run wild about anytime there is something you don't like "assassinate" someone even the children when they come of legal age but are still children.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/2/2014 9:04:03 PM

Hyacinth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Paradox is going downhill fast as far as wargamers are concerned. Listen to Johan�s statements at about 1:30 in the video. Prettier and easier is their main design goals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxGNpPz_W2A#t=117

I watched about half of this, not one mention about historical accuracy. A guess would be it took less than 1 minute real time to conquer Poland. I just don�t see the fun in a game like this.

Edit: OMFG I watched the rest of it... To quote Johan at about 14:50, "This is kind of awesome, everyone wants to customize their own ships. The bigger the guns, the bigger the navy, and the more chance you win the war.".

AAARRRGGGHHH!!!

Jim

Lol Jim are you just now realizing HOI is a kids game? Paradox moved to kids games many years ago. I mean CK2 is more like The Sims than it is a historiacal replay of the times. I mean seriously assassinations are only 50g and the forum posts run wild about anytime there is something you don't like "assassinate" someone even the children when they come of legal age but are still children.

Yep, they are crap, most adult wargames games left can be found in Matrix.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/2/2014 9:54:33 PM

DanSez

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

... I mean CK2 is more like The Sims than it is a historiacal replay of the times. I mean seriously assassinations are only 50g and the forum posts run wild about anytime there is something you don't like "assassinate" someone even the children when they come of legal age but are still children.

Sadly I have to agree. It seems the direction there is more toward "Days of Our Lives" rather than "Days of Infamy".

note to non-Americans - Days of Our Lives is/was a long running daytime soap opera.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/2/2014 11:58:44 PM

Ranger33

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I'll go against the grain here. For me, I honestly wouldn't mind a streamlined, easier to play version of HOI3 (or WW2 grand strategy in general). Not everyone has the time or energy to direct the entire Eastern Front in anything approaching realistic detail. I wasn't even interested in HOI4 until I watched that video, because I never really had fun with HOI2 or 3, despite multiple sessions as various countries.

That map looks great and has some really cool features, I don't think anyone can dispute that.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 12:17:42 AM

Hyacinth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger33

I'll go against the grain here. For me, I honestly wouldn't mind a streamlined, easier to play version of HOI3 (or WW2 grand strategy in general). Not everyone has the time or energy to direct the entire Eastern Front in anything approaching realistic detail. I wasn't even interested in HOI4 until I watched that video, because I never really had fun with HOI2 or 3, despite multiple sessions as various countries.

That map looks great and has some really cool features, I don't think anyone can dispute that.

I dispute it, it looks dull and with no real accuracy.

It has nothing compared to the map Jison did for WITE for example, for a non hexagonal map I prefer the AGEOD maps also over that.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 1:40:17 AM

radic202

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger33

I'll go against the grain here. For me, I honestly wouldn't mind a streamlined, easier to play version of HOI3 (or WW2 grand strategy in general). Not everyone has the time or energy to direct the entire Eastern Front in anything approaching realistic detail. I wasn't even interested in HOI4 until I watched that video, because I never really had fun with HOI2 or 3, despite multiple sessions as various countries.

That map looks great and has some really cool features, I don't think anyone can dispute that.

Thanks Ranger33 for this: I also like to be able to play a game (call it kiddy game if you wish) that doesn't involve me spending 3.5 hours figuring on how to move 1 icon on the map to invade lowly Poland in September of 1939. The heck with it sometimes!! I like to be able to play conquer and have a little fun every once in a while that can be done in almost one evening after I get home from work. When I want to dig in and play a "Man's game" then I will hit start on a multiple list of games I own from Matrix/Slitherine.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 1:46:35 AM

aaatoysandmore

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ok....kiddy game.....you said callit that.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 1:54:27 AM

balto

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EU 4 and HOI 2 and 3 are tens. Warlock 2: The Exiled is a 7.5. I am sure HOI 4 will be awesome.

2 thumbs up for Paradox, they are great.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 2:48:18 AM

Rosseau

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I'm still playing Darkest Hour and its mods. I don't think it's a kiddie game, and you can actually mod between turns if you don't like a stat or two. I think regularly priced at $5 or less.

But yeah, I was bummed when that cold war game got sunk and quite nervous about HOI IV.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 3:26:52 AM

danlongman

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I think I would rather not assume an elitist tone here. They are all kiddie games when you come
right down to it, especially when one considers modern kids affinity for the computer. I really can't
think of a game which should allow somebody to hold their nose in the air and proclaim their "playing
at soldier" is more grownup than another person's. There is no sweat let alone blood and lots of
colourful imagination.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 4:47:14 AM

zakblood

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don't look bad to be honest, i agree with thread starter with many points, but also i think it depends on your gaming skill, history knowledge and how much depth or not you like or want in a game / sim, for me it's a balance, too much detail it can look like a fps, not enough it can look bland, too much depth and you have to think about supply and the manual and less about enjoyment and fun playing the game, make it too easy or hard and you already lose some or most of your target audience, so to recap, it also depends on what or who you are aiming for and what age etc, get the balance right and you have a well selling classic, get it wrong and you get a low selling accurate sim that the odd 100 older men play, who will make comments for years about one unit being 2 hexes too far to the left or right.... (please remember i'm in the older age bracket)

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 6:23:20 AM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: danlongman

I think I would rather not assume an elitist tone here. They are all kiddie games when you come
right down to it, especially when one considers modern kids affinity for the computer. I really can't
think of a game which should allow somebody to hold their nose in the air and proclaim their "playing
at soldier" is more grownup than another person's. There is no sweat let alone blood and lots of
colourful imagination.

I duuno I wouldn't call Command Ops, WitP or WitE or World in Flames kiddie games by a long shot. There are a few that rank above the title of kids games.
I cannot rate the Paradox games or even the Creative Assembly games above that level though.

If you want to get technical even in the boardgame wargaming industry there are "entry" level games, "intermediate" level games and "advanced" level games. I'd have to put Paradox and Creative Assembly games in the "entry" level editions with a slight edge toward "intermediate" level of play but nothing like a WitP or WitE or World in Flames for sure. Even TOAW III I would rate very high toward the advanced catagory. Battles in Normandy, Battles in Italy, even Ajoed games I'd rate a lot higher. So, while they may all be titled kiddie games in the sence you are promoting there are "levels" of kiddie games and that's where Paradox and Creative Assembly games stand now.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 6:34:17 AM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
Lol Jim are you just now realizing

Yeah I�ve known for a long time they had gone over to the twitch and jerk crowed of gamers with most of their offerings over the past 3-5 years. But I always held out hope that they would try and stay true to their HOI franchise even if the rest of their stuff had given in to the appeal of the mass audience. In the back of my mind I had held out a glimmer of hope they�d at least return to the fold with this franchise, but this preview is an announcement to the word they�ve gone over for good.

Jim

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 7:53:24 AM

Rising-Sun

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I am still getting it, its completing modable and they still haven't finish it yet. So they still working on it and trying to improve it, but dunno if this going to be better or worst than HoI III. AoD probably the best one they have so far.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 10:38:29 AM

terje439

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
I mean CK2 is more like The Sims than it is a historiacal replay of the times.

Which is why I bought it

Tbh I have alot of fun with that game. Marrying of my impatiant imbecile of a son to some far off princess with a hunchback and who is chaste. Fun times

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 2:07:56 PM

battleground

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I have been playing Grigsby's games since Bomb Alley/War in the South Pacific from SSI. I aslo play War in the Pacific and Uncommor Valour as well...That said I also play HOI3 Their Finest Hour but only with some excellent mods. It is still a very
fractured game expierence with MANY problems.

When HOI4 was announced all hoped that PI would come out with a superb new version with all the bugs fixed (inc working subs).
There are a lot of vibes in the early developers diaries tho that make it clear that perhaps PI is following its own dream and ignoring many of its players by making it far simpler than it already is and adding a lot of shinning gliz for the kids to love.

I have been pounding out objections and pointing out what's wrong weekly on the HOI4 forum with what I have seen so far and from failures in HOI3 folks don't want to see in HOI4 (and I am far from the only one). But I think PI is going to ignore everybody and simply release their game from 'their vision' alone. (see Master of Orion 3..I have a dream) on how that goes. Also surprisingly there are a lot of folks craving a simple game, as simple as possible. A war in the world made up of drag, point, and click. If this truly comes to pass that will be a very sad ending for such a promising series.

If its as bad as I fear it will be it looks like I will have to start saving up for the Admirals Edition WITP to replace my earlier copy as I want a game that runs like a real world and does not use magic (tech/doctrine) to take its place.

If you read the HOI4 forums look for my boardname: plasticpanzers

< Message edited by battlegroundvehicles -- 9/3/2014 3:10:15 PM >

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 2:20:14 PM

Werewolf13

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HOI4 is on my list.

I for one am sick of games that require a freaking spreadsheet to play.

Wanna spend all your time trying to figure out if that 5-4-5 armored division in concert with the 3-3-3 Inf div one in and one out of supply moving across a river in winter can successfully attack that 2-2-2 Inf div defending who just happens to have a CAS sqdn in support??? Really? Knock yourselves out.

Personally - at age 30 going into the weeds to shake out the details was okay. AT 62 its getting old (and so am I).

I find the direction Paradox is going with HOI4 refreshing. HOI3 is pretty good but the level of detail one must deal with to play it with any hope of success is time consuming, boring and frankly a real pain in the ass!

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 2:28:19 PM

battleground

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I have hope its good but I have my doubts if it will be really playable as anything like an historical game. I am 62 as well and have bought enough 'stinkers' over the years to open a game shop. HOI3 is playable using one of the few better mods but the core game has many issues. If they don't fix em in HOI4 I don't think you will have much fun, simple or not.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 2:37:55 PM

Werewolf13

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quote:

...HOI3 is playable using one of the few better mods but the core game has many issues. If they don't fix em in HOI4 I don't think you will have much fun, simple or not.

This is a great example of just what I'm talking about. HOI3 has issues. I'm sure it does but they're not issues that I've ever noticed and I've been playing the thing for the better part of 3 years now. The issues that it has are issues that only the truly dedicated will notice.

Those of us playing just for fun - well - I can only speak for myself and for me - I'm well past my dedicated/super grognard days. I'm in it for the fun of it and worrying about the details these days just isn't any fun (and I imagine that Paradox' marketing department has a bunch of research that would support that position or they wouldn't be going down the path they've chosen).

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/3/2014 10:05:46 PM

eyegore

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I really liked HOI2. I often modded it so I could start earlier and play what-if's. to me it was their best HOI game. Then came HOI3. Aside from the bugs and map errors-which were huge (rains so long even noah would drown)-it failed on multiple fronts--mainly mechanics and presentation. Instead of making things clear on the main screen one had to dig for details. It was impossible to get a strategic sense-- the game showed hardly anything useful on the strategic side. They tried automating a lot of things-which again was a disaster because the A.I. screwed it up more times than not. The new tech tree threw out what was great in HOI2. Discovering a new tech in HOI2 was often a huge MOMENT! "AH my new aircraft carrier!" Now it was reduced to...Oh look...I have new snow shoes :(. There are no tech moments.

Then there's the whole thing about control. We control freaks want control over everything. We are in micromanagment heaven...but here the setup is so illogical it forces you to turn things over to the bad A.I. because it's so much work to do it manually. That is not progression. That's a bandaid over a badly thought out interface.

Unlike some companies however- they got on their mojo shoes and went to work ---not so much in fixing HOI3--I think the game is still awful- but Vicky2 was pretty good. then CK2 came and man...historical or not- what a fun game to play. And they hit another home run with EU4. So I'm kinda curious how HOI4 will turn out. To me HOI2 is just tops and still my favorite grand strategy WW2 game--so I wish them well in trying to top that.

< Message edited by eyegore -- 9/3/2014 11:07:18 PM >

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 12:22:35 AM

bairdlander2

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Very amusing and ironic to state "this video game is for kids" but "this one is for adults".Sounds like something a child/kid would say.Back to HOI4 and the complaint of ai control,this has been an optional feature since HOI3.Note that it is optional,also production,trade and tech can be ai controlled as well.I wont buy on release,but I will purchase it after a few patches.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 12:33:15 AM

bairdlander2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

I cannot rate the Paradox games or even the Creative Assembly games above that level though.
I'd have to put Paradox and Creative Assembly games in the "entry" level editions with a slight edge toward "intermediate" level of play but nothing like a WitP or WitE or World in Flames for sure. Even TOAW III I would rate very high toward the advanced catagory. Battles in Normandy, Battles in Italy, even Ajoed games I'd rate a lot higher. So, while they may all be titled kiddie games in the sence you are promoting there are "levels" of kiddie games and that's where Paradox and Creative Assembly games stand now.

I wouldn't call the EU series,Victoria series or HOI series "entry" level strategy games.Have you ever tried any?Can you tell us which ones and the reason you consider them "entry" level strategy titles?

< Message edited by bairdlander -- 9/4/2014 1:34:00 AM >

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 2:49:28 AM

DOCUP

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It is a game. I played HOI3 and went from that to WITP AE (love it). HOI 3 wasn't a bad game. It had some good areas. From what I can see there are some nice things being put into this game. Map looks good, love how you can scroll in and see the 3D troops and out to a more strategic view. Giving orders looks nice takes away some micromanagement. Making new units, it was that way with 3, I kinda like it this way better.

The problem I have had with Paradox games is that they put them out before they are done. It takes 2 or so patches to get them up to snuff.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 4:35:33 AM

DanSez

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I will pipe in again to say that the modding support and open LUA scripts for important parts of the game is HOI's big saving grace. I hope it continues with HOI4.

I have bought and played many hours the first 3 of the series. I have many of their other titles, CK2 being very shiny but not to my taste. To each their own and I hope that does not come across as elitist.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 5:20:49 AM

battleground

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Other than convoys and once (and once only) where I sunk an enemy sub with my sub you never sink any ship with a submarine in HOI3. CV and BB captains just giggle at enemy subs.

You can have a lot of fun with HOI3 Tears of War/Vorwarts Panzer mod or the DWI (immersion) mod but all have the failings in the AI and especially in the Pacific war where it is I take your base, you take it back, I take it back, repeat.. Or you fight and
destroy the Japanese navy over a year by just defending Midway.

I really would look forward to a full World War by Gary Grigsby on a somewhat streamlined scale of WITP in the future before I fall off my perch.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 1:04:01 PM

Greybriar

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I like beer and pretzels games. So I will probably buy Hearts of Iron IV when I can pick it up cheap in a compilation pack with all its DLC and expansions.

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 2:06:24 PM

wodin

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Well CK2 is one of my fav games and the coming DLC sounds superb..also EU IV is fun and that coming DLC also sounds superb..so I wouldn't say they are going downhill fast. AS for HOI being for kids..well it's beyond me to be honest. Infact I find the series one of the most complex grand strat wargames out there..

< Message edited by wodin -- 9/4/2014 3:07:32 PM >

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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 2:35:37 PM

major.pain

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I agree with you there Wodin, CK2, EUIII, EUIV i can play, not expertly, but understand and enjoy them.
Hearts Of Iron II and III i have tried over the years but they give me a head ache.
The new version oh Hearts Of Iron looks like something i might be able to wrap my head around :)

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