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Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0

 
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Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/5/2014 9:56:15 AM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		I am now in pbem scn 2 July 43 - not one allied fighter has been shot down by a bomber.

I cannot believe that would be the case in real life even the odd accidental hit would have bought down a few planes.

My bombers have some good pilots and we now have better planes but nothing makes any difference.

Cav
Post #: 1
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/5/2014 11:05:24 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		You aren't flying fortresses that are bristling with 50 cal. machine guns.

You're flying paper mache planes with peashooters (well perhaps that's a bit of an exaggeration).

The point is that it's the huge 4Es that are bristling with guns that shoot down fighters not smaller less heavily armed 2Es.

I have also NEVER seen an allied 2E bomber shoot down a Japanese fighter.

If you want to shoot down fighters with bombers build 4Es bristling with armament.

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Hans


(in reply to Cavalry Corp)
Post #: 2
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/5/2014 4:50:34 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

You aren't flying fortresses that are bristling with 50 cal. machine guns.

You're flying paper mache planes with peashooters (well perhaps that's a bit of an exaggeration).

The point is that it's the huge 4Es that are bristling with guns that shoot down fighters not smaller less heavily armed 2Es.

I have also NEVER seen an allied 2E bomber shoot down a Japanese fighter.

If you want to shoot down fighters with bombers build 4Es bristling with armament.


The later B-25s can do it.... look at all those guns!

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 3
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/5/2014 5:50:57 PM   
Puhis


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From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I am now in pbem scn 2 July 43 - not one allied fighter has been shot down by a bomber.

I cannot believe that would be the case in real life even the odd accidental hit would have bought down a few planes.



Historically, first time (in early 1942) USN carrier wildcats met G4Ms, japanese planes shot down 2 wildcats. One wildcat pilot KIA, another rescued.

Never happens in game.

(in reply to Cavalry Corp)
Post #: 4
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/5/2014 5:53:02 PM   
kkoovvoo

 

Posts: 253
Joined: 10/1/2004
From: Slovakia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I am now in pbem scn 2 July 43 - not one allied fighter has been shot down by a bomber.

I cannot believe that would be the case in real life even the odd accidental hit would have bought down a few planes.

My bombers have some good pilots and we now have better planes but nothing makes any difference.

Cav


This hasnt changed since WITP. No IJA/IJN bombers defense fire will shoot down any fighter.
You will never see Allied CV bomber shoot down japan fighter.
In the game are rarely japan fighters shot down by Allied 2E bomber and not so rarely by 4E bomber.

You are right, reality was different.



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Post #: 5
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/5/2014 6:20:02 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I am now in pbem scn 2 July 43 - not one allied fighter has been shot down by a bomber.

I cannot believe that would be the case in real life even the odd accidental hit would have bought down a few planes.



Historically, first time (in early 1942) USN carrier wildcats met G4Ms, japanese planes shot down 2 wildcats. One wildcat pilot KIA, another rescued.

Never happens in game.


Interesting reading, maybe?
http://www.wwiiarchives.net/servlet/action/document/page/1311/0/0






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Puhis -- 9/5/2014 7:20:27 PM >

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 6
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/5/2014 8:28:56 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

You aren't flying fortresses that are bristling with 50 cal. machine guns.

You're flying paper mache planes with peashooters (well perhaps that's a bit of an exaggeration).

The point is that it's the huge 4Es that are bristling with guns that shoot down fighters not smaller less heavily armed 2Es.

I have also NEVER seen an allied 2E bomber shoot down a Japanese fighter.

If you want to shoot down fighters with bombers build 4Es bristling with armament.


The later B-25s can do it.... look at all those guns!


Granted, especially in head on encounters



seemed to have forgotten the axiom: NEVER say never...


< Message edited by HansBolter -- 9/5/2014 9:30:02 PM >

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Hans


(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 7
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/5/2014 8:58:08 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Japanese 7.7mm machine guns on bombers have dismal accuracy. Army bombers have somewhat more accurate 7.7mm machine guns than the navy ones.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 8
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/6/2014 3:56:45 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I am now in pbem scn 2 July 43 - not one allied fighter has been shot down by a bomber.

I cannot believe that would be the case in real life even the odd accidental hit would have bought down a few planes.

My bombers have some good pilots and we now have better planes but nothing makes any difference.

Cav

In all my games and turns to date, I have NEVER had that happen (have a bomber shoot down and allied fighter) as the IJ. So don't feel bad. Maybe tomorrow will be my day.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Cavalry Corp)
Post #: 9
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/6/2014 5:51:39 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Maybe Sonias in head-on attacks can score kills? They have 2 x 12.7mm MG in F position, though the pilots would need nerves of steel to take on Warhawks.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 10
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/6/2014 11:24:44 AM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I am now in pbem scn 2 July 43 - not one allied fighter has been shot down by a bomber.

I cannot believe that would be the case in real life even the odd accidental hit would have bought down a few planes.

My bombers have some good pilots and we now have better planes but nothing makes any difference.

Cav

In all my games and turns to date, I have NEVER had that happen (have a bomber shoot down and allied fighter) as the IJ. So don't feel bad. Maybe tomorrow will be my day.


Same here. I've given up hope.

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Created by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 11
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/8/2014 3:03:01 PM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I've never seen it too but, just today, I've seen a ki-21 damage a P-40E and force it to leave combat. The ki-21 involved had only 7.7mm mg; the sentai was trained to 70 in defence so I suspect this can make some difference; Hope to see one fighter downed when the sentai will upgrade to ki49 with cannon and heavier mg.

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Blizzard

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Post #: 12
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/8/2014 6:08:31 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I am now in pbem scn 2 July 43 - not one allied fighter has been shot down by a bomber.

I cannot believe that would be the case in real life even the odd accidental hit would have bought down a few planes.

My bombers have some good pilots and we now have better planes but nothing makes any difference.

Cav



I had several PBEM going into very late war and never ever an Allied fighter was shot down by defensive IJ bomber fire. The way it is modelled I bet you will never see this. IJ def armament = weak, Allied fighter endurance = high. In real life I bet there was the odd 20mm projectile now and then that might have downed a fighter. Even if it would have only been one a year, that would be more than you will ever see in the game.

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Post #: 13
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/8/2014 6:09:15 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

You aren't flying fortresses that are bristling with 50 cal. machine guns.

You're flying paper mache planes with peashooters (well perhaps that's a bit of an exaggeration).

The point is that it's the huge 4Es that are bristling with guns that shoot down fighters not smaller less heavily armed 2Es.

I have also NEVER seen an allied 2E bomber shoot down a Japanese fighter.

If you want to shoot down fighters with bombers build 4Es bristling with armament.


I've seen B-25 taking down IJ fighters quite often though I can't remember having ever seen a 1E bomber taking down an IJ fighter.


< Message edited by castor troy -- 9/8/2014 7:09:54 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/9/2014 2:04:55 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		There was a story I read from the Guadalcanal campaign where a Marine fighter dove on a Betty formation and zoomed up underneath only to get his Wildcat shot up from a gun in the bomb bay of one of the Betties. The account said it was the only time anyone reported return fire from the bomb bay of a Japanese bomber.

The Wildcat was so badly shot up the pilot had to ditch and was later rescued.

The game counts planes that are damaged in a fight and then go down on the return trip as ops losses. In game terms the above account would be counted as an ops loss because the Betty only damaged the Wildcat initially and it went down trying to get back to base.

In the real war US bomber crews made a lot of claims for shot down fighters and many times they were credited with the kill for morale purposes, but the post war study of enemy records showed that many times the claims were exaggerated. Any there were many cases of enemy planes damaged by fire from bombers that later crashed trying to land.

Defensive armament on bombers is more of a deterrent than intended to down enemy planes. US bombers with the heavy use of .50 caliber guns were trying to shoot down enemy aircraft more than most other countries, but really all gunners could realistically hope for was to make enemy fighters pay dearly if they got too bold and/or sloppy. The rest of the time, defensive gunnery served to throw off a fighter's aim. The Germans held the Viermot (4 engine) aces in high regard not just because their targets were hard to knock down, but they had to fly through a hail of defensive fire that can be unnerving for anyone, even if it doesn't hit you.

Bombers usually had the best defensive armament facing to the rear because that was the best approach vector for a fighter. Forcing the fighter to approach from a less favorable angle would reduce the chances of them getting a hit.

Bill

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(in reply to castor troy)
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RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/9/2014 12:57:35 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Can the Betty 3a, with 20mm cannons knock any fighters down?


(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 16
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/10/2014 12:55:13 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Can the Betty 3a, with 20mm cannons knock any fighters down?



I don't think so...

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 17
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/25/2014 5:43:45 PM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline 		We got it!
ladies and gentlemen: 2nd leutenaint Oba V.
the first japanese bomber to bring down an american fighter






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 9/25/2014 6:47:07 PM >

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Blizzard

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 18
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/28/2014 5:09:39 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

We got it!
ladies and gentlemen: 2nd leutenaint Oba V.
the first japanese bomber to bring down an american fighter


Not surprisingly, those are some pretty dismal "Air Attack" numbers. Does that have any influence in the Bomber vs. Fighter calculations?

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Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to MrBlizzard)
Post #: 19
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/28/2014 6:14:56 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		Kull, I think the bombers' Def skill & Exp is more important.

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 20
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/28/2014 4:02:27 PM   
hubin


Posts: 19
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		There is no proof it was american fighter, probably some chinese lemon.
But keep up good work!

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Post #: 21
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 9/28/2014 8:59:05 PM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline 		The sentai was engaged in combat with american P39D and P40E in Australian skies, I could see 3 distinct american fighters damaged in the animation and leaving the combat. So the victory is definitevely achieved against an American fighter.
By the way 10 bombers were downed in the action...

< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 9/28/2014 10:00:49 PM >

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Blizzard

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Post #: 22
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 10/2/2014 2:31:12 AM   
crsutton


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Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Can the Betty 3a, with 20mm cannons knock any fighters down?





In the war the 20mm was a notoriously poor fit for bomber defense. The Japanese 20 mm located in the rear of the betty had a slow muzzle velocity and low rate of fire. It was almost impossible to hit an Allied fighter unless the pilot was stupid enough to attack on the six.

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Post #: 23
RE: Japan Bomber score of allied fighters July 43 = 0 - 10/2/2014 1:01:06 PM   
Lecivius


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Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Can the Betty 3a, with 20mm cannons knock any fighters down?





In the war the 20mm was a notoriously poor fit for bomber defense. The Japanese 20 mm located in the rear of the betty had a slow muzzle velocity and low rate of fire. It was almost impossible to hit an Allied fighter unless the pilot was stupid enough to attack on the six.


According to The Cactus Air Force, a marine wildcat was shot down by the stinger in a Betty. After that one the Americans learned & changed tactics.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 24
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