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Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/9/2014 12:39:29 PM

Endy

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Hello,

I noticed that some of the Jap destroyer classes, lose some of the main armament in the process of upgrading while gaining some more AA and ASW capability. I have a few questions regarding that:

1. Is the loss of 2 of 12,7cm guns noticeable in combat? Or are the main guns overrated anyway and torps matter most? So far in DD vs DD combat the guns have been helpful but will it matter later on against Fletchers?

2. Is it worth not to upgrade them and keep the guns at the cost of lower AA/ASW capability if one intends to keep using them for surface combat?

3. Do you upgrade but just switch them to other roles, let's say exclusively as Carier or other TF escorts and use only some DD classes for SAGs?

4. Do you upgrade and keep using them in SAGs because guns don't really matter and they're there as screening ships and torpedo boats only anyway?

Thanks in advance!

Post #: 1

RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/9/2014 12:52:45 PM

Jorge_Stanbury

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Surface combat will be fun for the Japanese player during the first year of war; against obsolete cruisers, 4-stack DDs, etc. It will become painful afterwards.

The probabilities of hitting a DD with torpedoes is small, DD vs DD combat usually happen with guns. The Fletchers are vastly superior regarless of the numbers of guns... To put it in perspective, a pack of Fletchers can take down a Japanese CA...

Surface combat will become less important with time, so IMHO it is worth upgrading to improve AA/ ASW

(in reply to Endy)

Post #: 2

RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/9/2014 2:35:13 PM

Lokasenna

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I think this happens on the smaller boats rather than the bigger ones. The smaller ones simply don't have room for the DCs and AA in addition to the main armament. IIRC, the newer and bigger boats keep their main armament throughout their AA/ASW upgrades.

That said... look at where they're positioned. Guns positioned in the center ("C") fire much less often than guns on the rear ("R"), which seem to fire much less often than those on the front-facing mountings ("F"). So if you're losing out on C- or R-mounted guns, consider that.

Also consider what job you want them to perform. If they're going to be doing AA duty at all, you should upgrade them.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)

Post #: 3

RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/10/2014 12:31:48 AM

wdolson

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Not just room, but weight is a factor. Any new equipment above the waterline makes the ship less stable. The Faragut class destroyers were too small for all the equipment added during the war. Two were lost in a typhoon in large part because they were too top heavy.

Many Fletchers lost one of their 5 inch guns for a 40mm platform. Late war a lot of Fletchers lost one or both torpedo tube sets for more AA, so it wasn't just a Japanese destroyer phenomenon. The Fletchers were bigger than most other DDs at the time, so they could take on more equipment before they became too top heavy. Larger ships could take on a lot more AA without losing anything because they had some much mass below the waterline to begin with.

Even at that there was some concern about the added weight along the edges of decks on the carriers. Not long after the war the carriers that weren't retired started losing AA mounts as the USN tried to make the ships more stable. The Yorktown class was the only CV class that didn't get the twin 5 inc mounts around the island because of the weight of the turrets. It was simply too much top side weight.

Bill

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Post #: 4

RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/10/2014 1:15:41 AM

pnzrgnral

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From: El Paso, AR
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Also keep in mind the Porter class upgrades. This class started the war with 4 x twin 5/38 mounts, 2 x fore and 2 x aft. Later in the war the third (aft) mount was replaced by 40mm AA. All these upgrades reflected wartime realities not visualized by ship designers pre-war.

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RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/10/2014 5:26:43 AM

Yaab

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Since DP guns on destroyers are handy in disrupting air attacks, I would look into those late war upgrades that replace DP guns of 8cm - 12.7cm caliber with 25mm guns and decide if the upgrade is not really a downgrade.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3563689&mpage=1&key=�

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Post #: 6

RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/10/2014 7:07:40 AM

Endy

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Thanks for the input guys, I really appreciate it :)

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RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/10/2014 1:04:23 PM

Puhis

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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Endy

Hello,

I noticed that some of the Jap destroyer classes, lose some of the main armament in the process of upgrading while gaining some more AA and ASW capability. I have a few questions regarding that:

1. Is the loss of 2 of 12,7cm guns noticeable in combat? Or are the main guns overrated anyway and torps matter most? So far in DD vs DD combat the guns have been helpful but will it matter later on against Fletchers?

2. Is it worth not to upgrade them and keep the guns at the cost of lower AA/ASW capability if one intends to keep using them for surface combat?

3. Do you upgrade but just switch them to other roles, let's say exclusively as Carier or other TF escorts and use only some DD classes for SAGs?

4. Do you upgrade and keep using them in SAGs because guns don't really matter and they're there as screening ships and torpedo boats only anyway?

IMO especially ASW upgrades are important. Loosing some of the 12,7 mm guns are irritating and it inevitably those ships have less firepower, but at that point of the game Japan should usually avoid surface actions anyway.

One thing to note: When destroyers loose one turret, they usually get surface radar. In theory that should help in surface combat (earlier detection of enemy).

(in reply to Endy)

Post #: 8

RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/10/2014 4:52:16 PM

Miller

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Two things to add regarding Jap DD upgrades:

1) A lot of the older classes can upgrade in 2/42, such as the Minekaze and Kamikaze class. However this upgrade usually robs them of most of their TTs and a couple of 4.7" DP guns in return for slightly more AA guns. I prefer to keep them as they are until the last available upgrade in 4/44 when they get decent DCs.

2) Most late (usually the last) upgrades of the better Jap DDs mean they lose their reloads for the TTs, I prefer to keep them as they are their best weapon.

(in reply to Puhis)

Post #: 9

RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/11/2014 1:03:03 AM

Louisvillan

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Great thread and I'd like to start by agreeing with the feedback.

I think the Anti Air Craft ratings for destroyers with Single Purpose guns is over stated in 1941-1942. With all the details and research gone into WITP-AE, I'm sure the designers would have known how weak these ships were historically in defending themselves against air attack, let alone contributing to Task Force air defense.

Don't get me wrong, I think this is a smart move, that increases game play, especially for Japanese players. I'm just curious if others have noticed this detail.

Example the US Porter Class were Destroyer leaders equipped with four twin Single Purpose 5" gun mounts. Yet they start the game in Dec 41 with a great AA Rating.... Of course, in '42 I will always seek out those destroyers for my Carrier Task Forces specifically because of that AA Rating.

Just a thought

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RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/11/2014 2:51:52 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louisvillan

Great thread and I'd like to start by agreeing with the feedback.

I think the Anti Air Craft ratings for destroyers with Single Purpose guns is over stated in 1941-1942. With all the details and research gone into WITP-AE, I'm sure the designers would have known how weak these ships were historically in defending themselves against air attack, let alone contributing to Task Force air defense.

Don't get me wrong, I think this is a smart move, that increases game play, especially for Japanese players. I'm just curious if others have noticed this detail.

Example the US Porter Class were Destroyer leaders equipped with four twin Single Purpose 5" gun mounts. Yet they start the game in Dec 41 with a great AA Rating.... Of course, in '42 I will always seek out those destroyers for my Carrier Task Forces specifically because of that AA Rating.

Just a thought

You are misreading what the AA rating means.

The AA rating number is just a bit more meaningful than the ASW rating.

Alfred

(in reply to Louisvillan)

Post #: 11

RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/11/2014 6:53:32 AM

Endy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

You are misreading what the AA rating means.

The AA rating number is just a bit more meaningful than the ASW rating.

Alfred

Hey Alfred,

do you mean to say that rather than looking at AA rating as the most important factor it's much better to look at what weapons the ship has, with what ranges, ceiling etc. And that the rating itself is a bit of an abstraction, not necessarily telling you how effective the AA will be? As an example in the other discussion Jap 25 mm guns were mentioned, which, while giving you a much better AA rating, are not really very effective.

This is sort of in line with what the other guys are saying and with the discussion about AA guns that Yaab linked, just wanted to confirm this.

< Message edited by Endy -- 9/11/2014 7:54:36 AM >

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 12

RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/11/2014 7:09:05 AM

BattleMoose

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I think the AA rating is a combined "value" for all AA weapons. But many AA weapons are so short ranged that they can only protect the ship but still yield high AA values, especially if they are very good at very close ranges.

For most applications we are interested in those AAA devices that have the range to protect Carriers from enemy air attacks. One cannot determine from the AA value of the ship whether or not it can effectively provide covering fire for other capital ships.

< Message edited by BattleMoose -- 9/11/2014 8:10:10 AM >

(in reply to Endy)

Post #: 13

RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/11/2014 10:33:14 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Endy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

You are misreading what the AA rating means.

The AA rating number is just a bit more meaningful than the ASW rating.

Alfred

Hey Alfred,

do you mean to say that rather than looking at AA rating as the most important factor it's much better to look at what weapons the ship has, with what ranges, ceiling etc. And that the rating itself is a bit of an abstraction, not necessarily telling you how effective the AA will be? As an example in the other discussion Jap 25 mm guns were mentioned, which, while giving you a much better AA rating, are not really very effective.

This is sort of in line with what the other guys are saying and with the discussion about AA guns that Yaab linked, just wanted to confirm this.

Correct.

Far too many come to the forum with their own predetermined conclusions as to how the game is coded, or should be played or whatever. They then proceed to engage in the most superficial analysis of the various game elements. Then they become "experienced" in playing the game but again still subject to their predetermined conclusions arrived at from reading third hand unreliable accounts.

Any proper analysis requires a close attention to the detail contained in the game itself, not what one thinks it should be. It then needs to understand the game context, again not some predetermined context which is largely irrelevant anyway.

In practical game terms a ship whose entire AA is provided by 200x40mm Bofors, has zero anti-air defence capability if it is going to be attacked by enemy aircraft flying at 13k. But a ship with a single 5" DP as it's entire anti-air weapon system, does have some anti-air defence capability. Yet it is the former ship which has the better AA rating by far. Conversely, sent the same two ships into an area where only enemy torpedo bombers operate, the Bofors equipped ship has by far the superior anti-air weapon system.

Alfred

(in reply to Endy)

Post #: 14

RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/11/2014 12:11:46 PM

GreyJoy

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Very interesting thread.
All us, JFBs, should devote move time studying the japanese DDs upgrade paths... What Miller has just said was an eyeopener for me!

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Post #: 15

RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/11/2014 1:30:43 PM

Lowpe

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There are quite a few questionable upgrades for Japan. The biggest one that comes to mind is AA rocket upgrade for carriers...of course you need to still have carriers by the time that upgrade becomes available.

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RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/11/2014 3:44:27 PM

Miller

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From: Ashington, England.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

There are quite a few questionable upgrades for Japan. The biggest one that comes to mind is AA rocket upgrade for carriers...of course you need to still have carriers by the time that upgrade becomes available.

And I think the devs have said they are useless in the game, so no point in doing it.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 17

RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/11/2014 4:36:21 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

There are quite a few questionable upgrades for Japan. The biggest one that comes to mind is AA rocket upgrade for carriers...of course you need to still have carriers by the time that upgrade becomes available.

And I think the devs have said they are useless in the game, so no point in doing it.

That's news to me. Why are they useless? Their stats aren't that bad.

(in reply to Miller)

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RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/11/2014 5:25:54 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

There are quite a few questionable upgrades for Japan. The biggest one that comes to mind is AA rocket upgrade for carriers...of course you need to still have carriers by the time that upgrade becomes available.

And I think the devs have said they are useless in the game, so no point in doing it.

That's news to me. Why are they useless? Their stats aren't that bad.

The thread in question - http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2811663

Note post #12 from JWE.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

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RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/17/2014 3:34:25 AM

rustysi

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In game terms I remember reading that the larger cal weapons fired twice. Once before the attack was initiated. Now I could be wrong... memory isn't what it was. Can someone confirm?

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RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/17/2014 12:16:50 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

There are quite a few questionable upgrades for Japan. The biggest one that comes to mind is AA rocket upgrade for carriers...of course you need to still have carriers by the time that upgrade becomes available.

And I think the devs have said they are useless in the game, so no point in doing it.

That's news to me. Why are they useless? Their stats aren't that bad.

The thread in question - http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2811663

Note post #12 from JWE.

And T's follow-on post a couple below that. Useless would be generous, that compared to the 25mm which isn't all that effective either ...

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RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/17/2014 3:20:45 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

There are quite a few questionable upgrades for Japan. The biggest one that comes to mind is AA rocket upgrade for carriers...of course you need to still have carriers by the time that upgrade becomes available.

And I think the devs have said they are useless in the game, so no point in doing it.

That's news to me. Why are they useless? Their stats aren't that bad.

The thread in question - http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2811663

Note post #12 from JWE.

And T's follow-on post a couple below that. Useless would be generous, that compared to the 25mm which isn't all that effective either ...

Sure, they don't hit all that hard, and the ceiling is only 1800... but has anyone actually seen them operate in-game? It may not protect you from DBs before they attack, but if they release from 1000 they may get hit by them after, correct?

What about TBs at 200 feet?

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RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/17/2014 3:31:16 PM

Lecivius

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From what I can find, the effectiveness of the 25mm in weight thrown was not very impressive. I offer the following

http://www.combinedfleet.com/b_aaa.htm

as my source "25mm mounts, while technically faster-firing, actually had a sustained rate lower than the Bofors (the 25mm gun had to cease fire when a new ammo cartridge was fitted)."

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RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/17/2014 10:15:41 PM

rustysi

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I think what would be best here is to focus on how the game handles AA rather than RL. As I said above the larger cal AA guns (12cm and above?) get to fire twice and once before the attack? They also can aid other vessels in the task force? The smaller weapons (40mm and below?) fire only once and only defend their ship?

I put all these statments above with question marks because this is what I recall reading and my recall mechanism isn't so hot anymore. I looked for the thread I was reading, but alas couldn't find it. Now as with everything else in this game, there are as many styles of play as there are players. What I might do one way everyone else might do differently. The only way to base a decision on upgrade/no upgrade is to see how the game mechanics work. So do we really know how the game operates in this respect? I would like to nail it down. Any help out there?

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RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/17/2014 10:40:59 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I think what would be best here is to focus on how the game handles AA rather than RL. As I said above the larger cal AA guns (12cm and above?) get to fire twice and once before the attack? They also can aid other vessels in the task force? The smaller weapons (40mm and below?) fire only once and only defend their ship?

I put all these statments above with question marks because this is what I recall reading and my recall mechanism isn't so hot anymore. I looked for the thread I was reading, but alas couldn't find it. Now as with everything else in this game, there are as many styles of play as there are players. What I might do one way everyone else might do differently. The only way to base a decision on upgrade/no upgrade is to see how the game mechanics work. So do we really know how the game operates in this respect? I would like to nail it down. Any help out there?

If those things happen, it may just be a function of range on the weapon. Ships are probably assumed to be X-thousand yards apart. If the range on the weapon isn't at least that far, there's not much it could do to assist another ship under attack.

The larger DP guns (such as the 12cm) certainly have that kind of range. Smaller weapons, like a .50-cal AAMG, certainly doesn't.

(in reply to rustysi)

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RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/17/2014 10:45:42 PM

rustysi

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From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I think what would be best here is to focus on how the game handles AA rather than RL. As I said above the larger cal AA guns (12cm and above?) get to fire twice and once before the attack? They also can aid other vessels in the task force? The smaller weapons (40mm and below?) fire only once and only defend their ship?

I put all these statments above with question marks because this is what I recall reading and my recall mechanism isn't so hot anymore. I looked for the thread I was reading, but alas couldn't find it. Now as with everything else in this game, there are as many styles of play as there are players. What I might do one way everyone else might do differently. The only way to base a decision on upgrade/no upgrade is to see how the game mechanics work. So do we really know how the game operates in this respect? I would like to nail it down. Any help out there?

If those things happen, it may just be a function of range on the weapon. Ships are probably assumed to be X-thousand yards apart. If the range on the weapon isn't at least that far, there's not much it could do to assist another ship under attack.

The larger DP guns (such as the 12cm) certainly have that kind of range. Smaller weapons, like a .50-cal AAMG, certainly doesn't.

Right, and that's what I'm looking for but can't find the thread I was reading it on. I know I read it somewhere. I shoulda printed it, I often do with something I think is important.

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RE: Question about Jap destroyer upgrades - 9/17/2014 11:06:23 PM

wdolson

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In the real world the 25mm was pretty useless. I don't believe there is a record of an American plane ever getting shot down by one. The Japanese used so many of them because they didn't really have anything else. The US's 20mm, 40mm, and 5 inch combo was probably the best combination of the period. Especially when the 5 inch guns started getting proximity fuses. The 40mm couldn't fire a proximity fuse so it was replaced with a 3 inch that could starting in late 1945. I think the first ships with the new 3 inch gun arrived too late for the war.

In general Japanese AA was a history of failure. Their guns were not all that effective individually, but they also lacked the directors Allied ships had by mid-war. The Allies had state of the art ranging devices feeding data to the AA guns whereas the Japanese had a guy with a stick for most of the war.

Bill

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(in reply to rustysi)

Post #: 27