loki100
Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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ORIGINAL: warspite1
No one wants you to shut up - you have been an excellent contributor to the debate - totally wrong of course, but a sensible debater  
with an introduction like that ... who can resist
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ORIGINAL: warspite1
One thing I really fail to get about the Yes voters (and the importance you attach to the EU really brings this out) is this:
Having been lied to by Heath and numerous traitors since, We have been sleep walking to a federal Europe (as opposed to what we originally were told we were voting for). As such all the matters of real importance will be taken away from individual countries sooner rather than later. You are fully up for that, that is important to you. But I do not understand the reasoning: yes I want to be free from Westminster ...... Just so I can be bossed around from Brussels.
Makes no sense to me.
ok
I'm too young (honest) to have voted before 1979, so I'll bow to others as to how the EEC accession and subsequent referendum were really framed.
But I did study the EEC at University, and felt that the statement about 'ever closer union' was pretty sincerely meant. This was a time when most of the UK left (Benn et al) were profoundly anti-EEC, but I never bought into that view. It was clear what the goal was - to so integrate the economic and political structures of Europe that war was impossible. Economic integration was not enough. That had been achieved in 1914 (most of the French trucks had German engines, key spare parts used by all the armies were only produced in one country), so to the founders it was clear that a purely economic structure would fail to achieve their goals. From my own point of view this was axiomatic, I had family (both my grandmother and uncles/cousins) who shared the Italian norm that the EEC was a good thing.
From a Scottish perspective, I think few see independence as a desire for isolation. So membership of the EU fits that world view. It also fits our myth (Scotland like most nations has myths about itself), which has some basis in truth, that we are more natural Europeans than the English (see I did say its a myth with some toeholds on reality). So its pretty obvious that in the world of 2014, independence is going to he heavily qualified. But the EU won't stop us crafting an approach to social welfare that fits our society, I'm afraid the UK Govt does.
This is also why if a proper devo max offer had been on the ballot paper (not the farce just trumped up), then you may as well have cancelled the referendum the day after due to that being the popular option. By devo max, I mean full attribution of all revenues to Scotland, transfer of an agreed sum to the UK Treasury for shared services and regional rebalancing, and its up to us to live with what is left - both how much we raise and how we allocate it. In truth, one valid criticism of the SNP's version of independence is that it is actually devo max by another name.
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ORIGINAL: Orm
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Well I'm not going to get into a debate over Iraq.
Well said. Lets keep the focus on the current vote and what it might bring to the future.
Yep, agree fully, people across the world marched against that, where-ever they lived.
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ORIGINAL: VPaulus
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ORIGINAL: warspite1
Orm Scotland will have to apply to join the EU. Spain for one will not be overly keen to allow them in - after all, how will the Basques react to that?
And what about France and Corsica? Italy and Sicily?
I see a lot of these independence movements all around Europe, getting strength.
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ORIGINAL: Orm
I just had a discussion with a colleague (friend) that regardless on how this vote goes so would Scotland be a part of the European Union. I claimed that treaties made by UK, when Scotland was part of UK, would be upheld if Scotland were to leave UK. There would, of course, be a need to confirm them and so on but the treaties and agreements made by UK was for all of UK at that time (and that includes Scotland).
One could as easily claim that if Scotland leaves UK then the remaining part of UK would not be part of EU since the original signing part do no longer exist. In my opinion both would automatically be part of the EU after a split and the original treaty would have to be modified for all parties.
I think that Europe would be worse if UK or Scotland would leave the European Union. But it is of course in your right to do so if you so decide.
Note that I also think that Scotland would be part of NATO after a split. And FN and so on.
My thinking could all be bollocks for what do I know. 
The point about the EU is this has never happened, but there is the semi-precedent of Greenland. Now Greenland leaving the EU caused so much administrative chaos (due to the speed at which it happened) that the EU passed a law that means you need to give 5 years notice of a decision to leave.
Without getting too legal, the reality is that Scotland may leave the UK legally (this is the contrast to Catalonia where the Spanish Govt will not allow a referendum) and why the Edinburgh agreement is so important. Now on that basis, Scotland is then in the situation of being a member of the EU (we inherit that status) but of leaving ... we haven't been accepted into the club. Complex  (& good for the lawyers).
Here's where it gets technical, we in effect renegotiate using article 49 (not 48 which applies to outside applicants) the terms of our membership - this is actually what the Conservatives are committed to do if they win the next election. We have 5 years to get agreement to our continued membership. We will of course be fully compliant with all the rules, we will (despite the SNP's claim to the contrary) lose some of the special British opt outs etc, but in the main this will work pretty easily. We will be members of the EU from 2016-21 (ie five years after leaving the UK), we will want to be in, and will be good members of the club. Its not guarenteed, but it would take true lunacy for a deal not to be worked out.
NATO is different. As we will chuck out Trident (even if not as fast as some would like), we'll be in pretty bad odour in that club. For me I don't care, I don't want to be a member of the alliance that has the bombing of Bologna station in 1980 (& all the other strange bombings in Italy from 1969-87), or the Brabant massacre in Belgium on its hands. But I'm a bit of a lefty. On balance I guess if Scotland asks nicely, we'll get in - but whether we want it or not will be one of the more divisive issues in Scottish politics in the period after independence (it nearly split the SNP a few years ago). My guess is we will end up in, as we have things to offer, but I can't see it as such an obvious answer.
< Message edited by loki100 -- 9/16/2014 4:48:40 PM >
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