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Oil and fuel transport - 9/19/2014 12:52:49 PM   
Endy

 

Posts: 87
Joined: 2/6/2014
Status: offline 		In quite a few threads related to economy there is a mention of possible transport of oil and fuel by rail to Korea. The problem lies in the details.

From what I could gather, the point is to start dropping oil and fuel at HK and then put a tanker or two in Fusan in Korea to try and create demand there and the above will start flowing into this base. Do I understand it correctly?

Also, is there a way to control the amount of oil/fuel transported by rail or will it all get sent as long there is even minimal demand? Is there any risk that it will start flowing back to Singers for example?

So far I've been hauling all the stuff from Singers directly to HI, and that seems to be the case with many people, but I am looking for possibly a more efficient and safer way to do it. I'll be grateful for any advice.
Post #: 1
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/19/2014 4:17:17 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		It can definitely flow back to Singers if you don't drop it far enough up the coast. Singers is a huge base with a reasonable amount of industry, so it has a tendency to hog all of the supply. The reason you need to drop it at Hong Kong or further is because of the break in the railroad between Hanoi and Hong Kong. Anything west of there and it will be easier for the Resources/Oil/Fuel/etc. to flow down to Singapore, even though there's a break in the RR near Saigon that break is a major road rather than a dirt road.

(in reply to Endy)
Post #: 2
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/19/2014 5:32:58 PM   
Endy

 

Posts: 87
Joined: 2/6/2014
Status: offline 		Hmm, I did drop oil at HK and trying to pull from Fusan but nothing appears to be coming...Bah, I wish I knew what I was doing wrong :)

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Post #: 3
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/19/2014 5:55:33 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Endy

Hmm, I did drop oil at HK and trying to pull from Fusan but nothing appears to be coming...Bah, I wish I knew what I was doing wrong :)


It takes patience and much experimenting. Supply/resource flow can be unpredictable as I think it depends on die rolls?

Eventually you will get it to flow if you set up CS Convoys from Fusan that pull the things you want them to haul. If you're doing fuel, you can just base a lot of ships there and it will create a higher demand for fuel.

(in reply to Endy)
Post #: 4
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/19/2014 7:11:42 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		If you base a lot of merchant ships there and they have full bunkers, will they still draw a lot of fuel??????

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Post #: 5
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/20/2014 2:20:44 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

If you base a lot of merchant ships there and they have full bunkers, will they still draw a lot of fuel??????


I believe so.

Also helps to "home port" a task force there.

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Post #: 6
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/20/2014 7:49:55 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		google search for my prior responses to this. I have published the "recipe" before.

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Post #: 7
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/20/2014 9:05:44 AM   
Endy

 

Posts: 87
Joined: 2/6/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

google search for my prior responses to this. I have published the "recipe" before.


I've tried googling the topic before posting and all I could find in the few economy threads is that it's possible to do but not exactly how, that's the problem...

I've also just tried doing as suggested in my game and no joy, no oil flowing into Fusan despite having a ship trying to load it there. I know I must be doing something wrong but have no idea what exactly. Also, I'm afraid I can only browse most recent of your replies. Could you give me a tip what thread to look for? I'd really apprreciate it.

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Post #: 8
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/20/2014 1:54:35 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Never have tried it. If you are playing a PBEM you might want to consider checking with your opponent as it can be considered as gaming the supply system...

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Post #: 9
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/20/2014 3:08:23 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		I agree Cannonfodder, it just doesn't seem kosher to me that you can run ALL your fuel overland, as the Chinese and other national groups never had the tanker cars to do so via rail or that amount of trucks... But it all depends upon the type of game you want to play I guess.

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Post #: 10
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/20/2014 3:56:04 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		I don't do it either. If I did, I would try to do it only for oil. I can't imagine how much fuel you'd lose moving it over that distance. I suspect it would more that if you shipped it in large tankers.

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Post #: 11
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/21/2014 1:02:52 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		With all of the caveats above ... you should check your partner ....

The essentials are that you need to start on Dec 7, 1941. Once the resource AI establishes a pattern, it is very difficult to change it. Not knowing your game, nor where you are at, nor the history, I cannot help that much.

I doubt that you will be able to establish any flow to Fusan if the date is beyond 3/42. After a couple of months, you need to work with either PA or Shanghai. You may be able to get resources, oil, fuel, and supply if you wish to flow from Saigon to PA/Shanghai. It will take persistence. However, if you have been loading oil or any other resource at Singers and shipping it from there, forget it. You have established Singers as a primary sink for that resource and it will draw everything west of HK (or farther) to it. It would be VERY difficult to change that flow. The resource AI does not like to change a pattern once established.

If you start on Dec 7, 1941, you can establish to the resource AI that Fusan (or anywhere else) is a primary draw. As you conquer bases, you can keep that going based upon the demand that Fusan presents to the AI. As long as that demand appears largest, then the AI will keep Fusan as a primary sink.

So, it is all about making the base you wish to load resources from look like it has the biggest demand and holding that demand. Where you are now, you would be best to choose PA or Shanghai. They are much easier than Fusan to start with and at a late date have better chance to become a sink. PA usually is a normal 'natural' sink ... as is Singers.

Good Luck

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 9/21/2014 2:08:58 AM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/21/2014 6:08:55 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Endy


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

google search for my prior responses to this. I have published the "recipe" before.


I've tried googling the topic before posting and all I could find in the few economy threads is that it's possible to do but not exactly how, that's the problem...

I've also just tried doing as suggested in my game and no joy, no oil flowing into Fusan despite having a ship trying to load it there. I know I must be doing something wrong but have no idea what exactly. Also, I'm afraid I can only browse most recent of your replies. Could you give me a tip what thread to look for? I'd really apprreciate it.



Endy,

In post #12 PaxMondo has expanded on his "recipe". To search in the AE main forum for earlier posts of his you can use as keywords, "resources flow". Keep an eye out for his 3 December 2011 post. When searching do not pay much attention to a thread's title. Much better is to focus on reading listed posts from reliable forumites.


There is no particular secret, or for that matter difficulty, in creating the "magic highway". What is required is to create a demand for the raw materials at the chosen end port. This is achieved as follows.

1. Understand that the overland movement of raw materials (resources, fuel and oil) is essentially the same as that for supplies. It is computer controlled and cannot be directly controlled by the player. In all instances the overland movement occurs in response to a demand from a location which can trace a valid supply path.

2. Look up my Logistics 101 Guide for overland path movement frequency which is based on supply path cost. The table on pages 189-190 of the manual lists how supply path cost is determined.

3. There is both natural and artificial demand for raw materials. Natural demand comes from both industry and base infrastructure. Artificial demand comes from ships loading up with raw materials.

4. Since patch 2 there is no wastage on raw materials moved overland between bases which can trace a valid supply path. However when moving from base A to base Z with 24 intervening bases the flow moves sequentially between bases at a maximum rate of 1 base per day along the path. The overall time taken by the flow to arrive at base Z is dependent on the frequency of movement as per point 2 above.

5. Because Japan can expand existing industrial facilities as well as improve base infrastructure, the Japanese player has a greater capacity to increase the natural demand for raw materials than the Allied player who is limited to only improving base infrastructure. Both sides have the same capacity to generate artificial demand for raw materials.

6. In the absence of player intervention, raw materials produced at a base are sent to satisfy the natural demands from all bases which can trace a valid supply path back to the production site. Any surplus raw materials production is then sent to the largest port which can trace a valid supply path. The tie breaker when 2 or more equally sized ports are candidates, is the port with the highest spoilage limit.

7. The demand quantum for fuel is listed on the base screen in the "fuel requested" field. Read my post in this thread

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3697364

for how this quantum is determined and accordingly what needs to be done to increase the natural demand for fuel.

8. There is no listing on the base screen of the demand quantum for resources and oil. Heavy Industry and Light Industry demand resources. Refineries demand oil.

9. To generate artificial demand for raw materials at a port requires the presence of ships loading raw materials for transportation to another port. If no ships are loading the artificial demand disappears and will not reappear until the arrival of ships with orders to take away raw materials.


The bottom line is that the end base must


  • be the largest port
  • have many anchored/home based ships
  • be the biggest ship refuelling port for visiting ships
  • be the largest airfield
  • maintain a constant sea borne export trade


PaxMondo (and others) can amplify the above with concrete examples.

Alfred


< Message edited by Alfred -- 9/21/2014 7:19:02 AM >

(in reply to Endy)
Post #: 13
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/21/2014 6:39:45 AM   
Endy

 

Posts: 87
Joined: 2/6/2014
Status: offline 		Thank you Alfred, that was very helpful.

As for looking all this up on the forum, there are so many industry related topics that it's just sometimes difficult to piece together all the small bits of information and details on the particular thing you're interested in, especially if you're not a veteran and have not been present on the forums for at least a few years :) That's why I appreciate that you took the time to put it all togather and replay. Thanks again!

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 14
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/21/2014 2:36:55 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		As usual, Alfred's research and summary is impeccable. He outlines all of the variables.

Point 6 about tie-breaker is the reason that no strategy is 100% sure. My experience is that I can get it to work in about 85% of my new game starts now. I don't know for sure it is working until Mar/Apr 42, but I can have a good idea it is working by Feb 42. My current game date is 420215 and I have Fusan as the sink for the area Shanghai east. HK isn't connected yet (allies still own Wenchow, this is a Ironman Nasty Nasty Sadistical game so Wenchow not only generates supply, but is defended by a couple very strong CHI Corps. I'm going to need +3000 AV to take it.) So still another 3 - 4 months before I know if resources will flow from Singers, but my current numbers tell me I'm ~95% that it will*.

As to losses that MikeS mentions: I have no idea. I have not been able to calculate them. I know they exist for both supply and fuel, but not easy to calculate given the distances involved.

*I currently get periodic messages that other bases are short of fuel for HI or oil for refineries indicating that Fusan is seen by the AI as 'the' sink. That's the evidence I look for. So, in addition to the parasidic losses that MikeS mentions, there are also some production losses, a few turns per month, that you need to account for. A little less supply generated, a little less fuel. Not permanent losses, just temporary.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 9/21/2014 4:05:44 PM >

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Post #: 15
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/21/2014 7:37:53 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I don't do it either. If I did, I would try to do it only for oil. I can't imagine how much fuel you'd lose moving it over that distance. I suspect it would more that if you shipped it in large tankers.


No longer the case since patch #2 for resources/oil/fuel. Supply wastage moving long distance overland remains but was toned down.

Alfred

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 16
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 9/22/2014 2:46:43 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

With all of the caveats above ... you should check your partner ....

The essentials are that you need to start on Dec 7, 1941. Once the resource AI establishes a pattern, it is very difficult to change it. Not knowing your game, nor where you are at, nor the history, I cannot help that much.

I doubt that you will be able to establish any flow to Fusan if the date is beyond 3/42. After a couple of months, you need to work with either PA or Shanghai. You may be able to get resources, oil, fuel, and supply if you wish to flow from Saigon to PA/Shanghai. It will take persistence. However, if you have been loading oil or any other resource at Singers and shipping it from there, forget it. You have established Singers as a primary sink for that resource and it will draw everything west of HK (or farther) to it. It would be VERY difficult to change that flow. The resource AI does not like to change a pattern once established.

If you start on Dec 7, 1941, you can establish to the resource AI that Fusan (or anywhere else) is a primary draw. As you conquer bases, you can keep that going based upon the demand that Fusan presents to the AI. As long as that demand appears largest, then the AI will keep Fusan as a primary sink.

So, it is all about making the base you wish to load resources from look like it has the biggest demand and holding that demand. Where you are now, you would be best to choose PA or Shanghai. They are much easier than Fusan to start with and at a late date have better chance to become a sink. PA usually is a normal 'natural' sink ... as is Singers.

Good Luck


+1 to all of this. I hadn't thought about needing to do it early before, but my experiences so far confirm that notion. That makes a lot of sense. Even stopping convoys that are loading up at, say Singers, in an effort to get resources to stop pooling there, while loading up convoys elsewhere... very difficult to do.

Now, getting Oosthaven to draw lots of fuel even after only using Palembang for many months is easy, but presumably that's because Sumatra is a much smaller closed system. With Singers/China/Fusan you're dealing with all of Asia.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I don't do it either. If I did, I would try to do it only for oil. I can't imagine how much fuel you'd lose moving it over that distance. I suspect it would more that if you shipped it in large tankers.


No longer the case since patch #2 for resources/oil/fuel. Supply wastage moving long distance overland remains but was toned down.

Alfred


One of many reasons to play with the betas!

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 17
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 10/11/2014 12:11:51 AM   
durnedwolf


Posts: 885
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: USA
Status: offline 		Thanks for the in-depth information Alfred.



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I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

The great aim of education is not knowledge but action. - Herbert Spencer

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Post #: 18
RE: Oil and fuel transport - 11/28/2014 1:08:39 AM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1484
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline 		Just came across this thread;

Outstanding research and information Pax and Alfred.

My sincere appreciation.

Mac

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Post #: 19
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