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RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 7:42:57 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander


quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326


quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Steam sucks. Straight up. Thank goodness Matrix has avoided that soul-sucking death spiral. I (and many others I know) will never buy another game on Steam under any circumstances.


I 2nd this ^^^ post. I like being able to get my games here "without" having to jump thru hoops with DRM schemes. Storing your games here is just as easy just takes a bit more intelligence is all.


Then you've never dealt with STEAM for there are no hoops to jump thru at all. You put your money on the table, download the product and you're done. That's it. It's easier than going to the store and hoping there's a boxed version on the shelf or ordering online and waiting days and days to get it unless you pay a huge premium for 1 day delivery.

Your talking STEAM about like you talked HOI3 and Brazil aaatoysandmore. In other words out the nether parts of your body.









Yes, please do not feed bairdlander. It's sooooo much more pleasant when he isn't around.

(in reply to bairdlander2)
Post #: 61
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 9:46:18 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Yes, please do not feed bairdlander. It's sooooo much more pleasant when he isn't around.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 62
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 9:58:38 PM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline 		This thread was relatively OK until all the "trolling" banners came up. I don't think we need to call anyone a "troll". It's a nasty and denigrating word. We're all people regardless of our opinions and/or prejudices. Not giving anyone "fault" here. We all fail our own better sense sometimes (I'm no exception) but let's just sort of try to keep it civil as much as possible from here forward maybe? No need to "kiss and make up" just try to put yourself in the other guys shoes and think how it would feel to be denigrated. General rule of thumb for all of us. With that said I'll shut up now...

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Post #: 63
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 10:29:47 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

This thread was relatively OK until all the "trolling" banners came up. I don't think we need to call anyone a "troll". It's a nasty and denigrating word. We're all people regardless of our opinions and/or prejudices. Not giving anyone "fault" here. We all fail our own better sense sometimes (I'm no exception) but let's just sort of try to keep it civil as much as possible from here forward maybe? No need to "kiss and make up" just try to put yourself in the other guys shoes and think how it would feel to be denigrated. General rule of thumb for all of us. With that said I'll shut up now...


(sniff) Gary...if I had a brother I'd want him to be just like you. (sniff) and Wodin too.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 64
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/21/2014 2:26:23 AM   
JFalk68


Posts: 223
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline

We all have our own opinions, at least we can agree that together we are passionate about wargamming. Cheers :)

< Message edited by JFalk68 -- 9/21/2014 4:18:43 AM >

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Post #: 65
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/22/2014 10:38:55 AM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		At bottom, I think the aversion to Steam or to any Steam-esque client comes from the fear that it will totally replace the current model, as opposed to working in conjunction with it. I don't think anyone here would really mind if Matrix put up everything on Steam (or on their own Steam-esque client) as long as they could still do their installs and back-ups and patching and good ol' manual way. Which is really what they've already done with Panzer Corps, Commander the Great War and Advanced Tactics.

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Post #: 66
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/22/2014 1:00:29 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline 		Sure I have no adversity to them using both methods of distribution as long as I can still buy them here without the steam client.

I think what the fear most is we are losing our right to privacy and ownership of things. I don't like this word "license" either as much as I don't like Steam. In my minds eye I am not buying a license I am buying a product and I exchange funds for the product and I expect ownership when I do that. Except of course cases where a license makes sense like renting a car. I don't expect ownership when I rent a car because I can't afford the whole car price. But, I do expect ownership when I can afford the product that only cost up to $60 as I can afford that price. Let's face it when a product is digital it can be made limitless times without cost or so low in cost it doesn't affect the value. Publishers and developers would get a lot more of my money if they removed this license crap and allowed me to be the owner of the product I bought again. As it is this way I'm more than willing to wait for the extreme low prices when they go onsale. So, I replaced ownership with patience and frugalness. If that's the way they want to be there is also a way for me to be sort of to "counterattack" the situation.

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 67
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/22/2014 4:20:17 PM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		I touched upon this in your other thread as well, but the inability to explicitly transfer ownership of 'your' game to another person is something that's enforced by licensing even in a distribution model that's as 'light' as Matrix's. We the consumer haven't really 'owned' our games in a total physical product sense since about the mid-to-late 90s.

But yes, from the perspective of going all the way over to Steam, that's a ton of additional issues to further weigh it down.

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 68
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/22/2014 5:32:00 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
But yes, from the perspective of going all the way over to Steam, that's a ton of additional issues to further weigh it down.


You mean... like your blatant license violation?

Odd, isn't it, how you get nailed to the wall for promulgating a practice that's arguably piracy and neglect to comment further. Very odd indeed.

_____________________________

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Post #: 69
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/22/2014 6:04:57 PM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		That's because I'm not really interested in engaging in a debate over it.

I could go over points such as how the specific implementation of various levels of DRM is deliberate and left up to the publisher's choice (Paradox doesn't use it, various indie outfits don't use it, most big-name developers do, and so on) and the difference between copying something for your own personal use across multiple devices/platforms versus copying something with the intent of piracy, and you could come back with neither of these being excused along a strict, legalistic interpretation of the license because of course no company, not even absolutely DRM-less GOG.com or Humble Bundle, is going to come right out and that it's just fine to make multiple copies of their games.

If it'll make you feel better I acknowledge what I said, what it implied, and my lack of contention. I'll cop to it all the way.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 70
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/27/2014 12:23:35 AM   
geozero


Posts: 1886
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Southern California, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: radic202

As much as I agree with OP and would use one by Matrix/Slitherine, I have never had any issues with Steam, heck transferred all my Matrix Games (the ones that I can) to the Steam Portal for better access or actually for a much cleaner Desktop. Think I have like 198 games on the Steam portal at the moment. The only thing that bothers me is if Steam went "belie up" what would happen to all my games that I have no hardware for?


I was once a STEAM hater.

I have since converted.

It is easy. It is not a burden. It is not intrusive. It is a great place to have your games when you upgrade your PC or if it crashes.

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Post #: 71
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/27/2014 1:44:29 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero


quote:

ORIGINAL: radic202

As much as I agree with OP and would use one by Matrix/Slitherine, I have never had any issues with Steam, heck transferred all my Matrix Games (the ones that I can) to the Steam Portal for better access or actually for a much cleaner Desktop. Think I have like 198 games on the Steam portal at the moment. The only thing that bothers me is if Steam went "belie up" what would happen to all my games that I have no hardware for?


I was once a STEAM hater.

I have since converted.

It is easy. It is not a burden. It is not intrusive. It is a great place to have your games when you upgrade your PC or if it crashes.


They say "brainwashing" is a simple task.

(in reply to geozero)
Post #: 72
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/27/2014 2:02:30 AM   
geozero


Posts: 1886
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Southern California, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Indeed.

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JUST SAY NO... To Hideous Graphics.

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Post #: 73
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/27/2014 9:29:52 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
specific implementation of various levels of DRM is deliberate and left up to the publisher's choice (Paradox doesn't use it, various indie outfits don't use it, most big-name developers do, and so on) and the difference between copying something for your own personal use across multiple devices/platforms versus copying something with the intent of piracy


In your posts #43, you specifically stated that you're violating your Steam Subscriber Agreement in order to preserve access to the game if you're locked out of Steam (they go belly-up or you get banned). That's piracy by definition. Unauthorized (see previous post quoting Steam license agreement) copying. Unauthorized use.

"Consumers break the law when they make unauthorized copies of software. Whether for profit, free distribution, or personal use, such duplication constitutes copyright infringement. Copyright owners can sue infringers for damages that may include profits made by the infringers, or statutory damages of up to $100,000 for each work infringed. The penalties are more severe when software copying is done"

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Consumer+Software+Piracy

Your argument is idiotic. Whether or not I lock my door, if you walk into my house and steal my belongings, you're committing burglary. But by your argument, it's OK for you to rob me blind if I don't lock my door. Out of curiosity, does this "free use of unprotected resources" apply to other areas of your life?

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
neither of these being excused along a strict, legalistic interpretation of the license


It's a legal document. Do you have a better way of interpreting a legal document, than legalistic interpretation?

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
no company, not even absolutely DRM-less GOG.com or Humble Bundle, is going to come right out and that it's just fine to make multiple copies of their games.


GoG's stated reason is:
"2. So what's with this DRM thing?
DRM or Digital Rights Management is a kind of copy protection technology used by many companies to limit the usage of digital media. Although designed to stop pirates from creating illegal copies, in reality the only people who are hurt are the legitimate consumers, stripped of their fair use rights, such as the ability to make backup copies.We believe that a DRM-free world would be a better place and that's why you won't find any DRMs or other intrusive copy protection in items available at GOG.com. This applies to both games and movies."
http://www.gog.com/support/website_help/what_is_gog_com

GoG is about consumer rights and crappy, intrusive DRM - not about breaking agreements that you've willingly and knowingly signed onto. Don't like DRM, don't use Steam. If you use Steam and break your license agreement as you stated previously, you're a pirate by definition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
If it'll make you feel better I acknowledge what I said, what it implied, and my lack of contention. I'll cop to it all the way.


Nice to have that sorted out once and for all. You're a pirate.


_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

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Post #: 74
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/27/2014 10:38:31 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline 		Kayoz you seem to be intelligent on the subject and it's something I've wondered for years. If you already own the game just on another medium like commodore 64 and you now own a PC is it ok to download the game in the PC version. It's the same game. One has already paid for the rights to it once. Why should I have to buy another copy for each type of machine I own. If I buy a car does not the same gasoline used it in still run in the other cars I buy? It's still the same gas? Why should I have to pay for it twice or thrice?

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 75
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/28/2014 12:10:35 AM   
Otto von Blotto


Posts: 273
Joined: 7/18/2008
Status: offline 		If you brought a film on VHS in the 80's are you entitled to have a dodgy DVD or Blue Ray of it.?

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Post #: 76
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/28/2014 12:54:07 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

If you already own the game just on another medium like commodore 64 and you now own a PC is it ok to download the game in the PC version. It's the same game. One has already paid for the rights to it once. Why should I have to buy another copy for each type of machine I own. If I buy a car does not the same gasoline used it in still run in the other cars I buy? It's still the same gas? Why should I have to pay for it twice or thrice?


Well, unlike your car, you've paid for the license to use the software. You don't "own" it in the same way you do your car. You can't modify it or otherwise alter it to make it work on your new PC. Yes, it's screwy, but that's how the law sees it. You can have the engine of your old car torn out and replaced with something more powerful and efficient - you can't do the same with software.

I think there's three main issues here:
1. Is the software considered "abandon ware", and the PC port is done by someone who doesn't actually own the copyright. In this case, you're probably safe from being sued, since the version you downloaded isn't done by someone who has the legal right to go after you. Kind of like stealing cash from a drug dealer who's just got the money from a sale of drugs. Technically wrong, but he isn't likely to go running to the cops.

2. Is the PC version copyright is legitimately owned by the author of the port, then your original Commodore 64 software purchase was for the C-64 version and that work alone. Not the PC port. In this case, it's copyright violation and you're fairly nicked if you do get caught. After all, someone's done the work to bring a classic to the PC, involving wholesale re-writing of the code, and he does have a legitimate claim to compensation for his work. Though to be fair, anyone who's re-writing a 2 decade old game and expecting to turn a profit from his efforts is probably someone you should get to know and sell a bridge to.

3. Is it freeware or shareware? If so, you're under no legal obligation to pay anything. Star Control II is an example of an old game that's gone free.

4. If you don't know and it's something you downloaded from a dodgy source, then you might want to check. Sometimes things you find on torrent engines will have viruses or trojans in them, which you can avoid by just getting the files for free from the legitimate distribution source. I don't mean to imply that stuff from torrent is dodgy - just that there's no accountability.

But as a rule of thumb for any 25-30 year old game, I'd doubt anyone's out of pocket even if it is, technically, piracy. No harm, no foul. But if you're bothered, check Google for the author and see if the company exists.

As a last point, if you still have the old game, you might be able to run it on a C-64 emulator. In that case, there's absolutely no question of your right to use the software you purchased.

Caveat - I'm not a lawyer. I've just looked at this question previously in an old (aborted) attempt to recreate M.U.L.E. years ago.

_____________________________

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(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 77
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/28/2014 1:05:21 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Otto von Blotto

If you brought a film on VHS in the 80's are you entitled to have a dodgy DVD or Blue Ray of it.?


If I bought a dodgy DVD or Blue Ray player yes I think so. I just upgraded the machine the movie on VHS is still the same movie.

(in reply to Otto von Blotto)
Post #: 78
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/28/2014 1:05:39 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Otto von Blotto

If you brought a film on VHS in the 80's are you entitled to have a dodgy DVD or Blue Ray of it.?


If you did it yourself (VHS -> DVD) of a tape you own, and you (are blessed to) live in the UK, then yes, it's legal.

http://torrentfreak.com/uk-dvd-cd-ripping-will-legalized-summer-140328/

If not, then "it depends".


_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

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Post #: 79
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/28/2014 1:12:49 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz


quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

If you already own the game just on another medium like commodore 64 and you now own a PC is it ok to download the game in the PC version. It's the same game. One has already paid for the rights to it once. Why should I have to buy another copy for each type of machine I own. If I buy a car does not the same gasoline used it in still run in the other cars I buy? It's still the same gas? Why should I have to pay for it twice or thrice?


Well, unlike your car, you've paid for the license to use the software. You don't "own" it in the same way you do your car. You can't modify it or otherwise alter it to make it work on your new PC. Yes, it's screwy, but that's how the law sees it. You can have the engine of your old car torn out and replaced with something more powerful and efficient - you can't do the same with software.

I think there's three main issues here:
1. Is the software considered "abandon ware", and the PC port is done by someone who doesn't actually own the copyright. In this case, you're probably safe from being sued, since the version you downloaded isn't done by someone who has the legal right to go after you. Kind of like stealing cash from a drug dealer who's just got the money from a sale of drugs. Technically wrong, but he isn't likely to go running to the cops.

2. Is the PC version copyright is legitimately owned by the author of the port, then your original Commodore 64 software purchase was for the C-64 version and that work alone. Not the PC port. In this case, it's copyright violation and you're fairly nicked if you do get caught. After all, someone's done the work to bring a classic to the PC, involving wholesale re-writing of the code, and he does have a legitimate claim to compensation for his work. Though to be fair, anyone who's re-writing a 2 decade old game and expecting to turn a profit from his efforts is probably someone you should get to know and sell a bridge to.

3. Is it freeware or shareware? If so, you're under no legal obligation to pay anything. Star Control II is an example of an old game that's gone free.

4. If you don't know and it's something you downloaded from a dodgy source, then you might want to check. Sometimes things you find on torrent engines will have viruses or trojans in them, which you can avoid by just getting the files for free from the legitimate distribution source. I don't mean to imply that stuff from torrent is dodgy - just that there's no accountability.

But as a rule of thumb for any 25-30 year old game, I'd doubt anyone's out of pocket even if it is, technically, piracy. No harm, no foul. But if you're bothered, check Google for the author and see if the company exists.

As a last point, if you still have the old game, you might be able to run it on a C-64 emulator. In that case, there's absolutely no question of your right to use the software you purchased.

Caveat - I'm not a lawyer. I've just looked at this question previously in an old (aborted) attempt to recreate M.U.L.E. years ago.


Ok, very helpful. I found a site that uses a c64 emulator and it has the games I have for my commodore 64 but I'm on a PC all the time now. So I CAN use an emulator to run those games I bought for C64 on my PC since I am using an emulator. I'd rather have the commodore 64 versions anyways because the colors were a lot better than the PC versions back then. Thanks for the clairification. I'll just use the c64 emulators and Amiga 500 emulators now and no longer will need any pc versions.


It brings up another question then about DoxBox and D-Fend Reloaded. They make games that used to work on certain OS's work on modern day computers for the most part. Now what about that? One is taking a game that was coded for lets say DOS 3.1 and making it work on WinXP or Win7 or beyond. That's ok?

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 80
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/28/2014 1:47:14 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
It brings up another question then about DoxBox and D-Fend Reloaded. They make games that used to work on certain OS's work on modern day computers for the most part. Now what about that? One is taking a game that was coded for lets say DOS 3.1 and making it work on WinXP or Win7 or beyond. That's ok?


I don't know of any game that restricts, by its license, what OS or OS emulator you run it on. Some old mainframe licenses were incredibly restrictive, but I've never seen it for a game.

Looks fine to me. You're just playing an old game on an emulator because you don't have a 286 kicking around. Unless the game license actually says, "must be played on XXXX", they have no right to tell you what system to run it on.

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

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Post #: 81
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 11/23/2015 9:27:29 AM   
demyansk


Posts: 2840
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline 		I read almost every post, wow

I like having both - Steam will be easy when I move to another machine but in all reality, for me, I don't play many games older than ten years. Therefore, I believe what will be out there in 2025 will make the present titles obsolete. Just an opinion

What do most computer players do to keep track of serial s?

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 82
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 11/23/2015 11:00:03 AM   
Gilmer


Posts: 1452
Joined: 7/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: demjansk

I read almost every post, wow

I like having both - Steam will be easy when I move to another machine but in all reality, for me, I don't play many games older than ten years. Therefore, I believe what will be out there in 2025 will make the present titles obsolete. Just an opinion

What do most computer players do to keep track of serial s?


I have notepad files with them in it. Which I regularly email to myself because I'm paranoid about losing them.

_____________________________

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He that has a mind to fight, let him fight, for now is the time. - Anacreon

(in reply to demyansk)
Post #: 83
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 11/24/2015 3:45:32 AM   
JiminyJickers


Posts: 290
Joined: 10/4/2011
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		I much prefer the current DRM free way. A lot of games have optional Steam keys, but DRM free is the big draw for me. Even if the same games cost more here than on Steam, the DRM free is worth it.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 84
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 11/24/2015 1:31:14 PM   
budd


Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline 		I like the fact that you get DRM free and a steam key.The system is fine the way it is. I have all the steam matix games loaded on steam and have added shortcuts for the non-steam games to steam. So i open up steam and all my game shortcuts are there.As far as if steam goes down...well i guess I'll cuss and cry for 5 minutes....and then move on with my life and find something else to do, perspective people.....there just games.

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Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

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Post #: 85
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 11/24/2015 4:02:44 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		This is the interwebs Budd! It's no place for perspective!

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Post #: 86
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 11/24/2015 4:51:45 PM   
t001001001

 

Posts: 322
Joined: 4/30/2009
Status: offline 		I hate Steam too. Having all my games in one place organized is very inconvenient. Also, seeing a game I want, clicking purchase, and have it download straightway pisses me off every time.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 87
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 11/25/2015 10:11:49 PM   
rhondabrwn


Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline 		I agree that Matrix games that I have purchased ought to be readily available for re-downloading forever. Not that I don't make my own backups, and not that they aren't great about giving you a new download link when you need one... but you shouldn't have to hassle over it... the games should be just "there" without a time limited download link.

Just sayin'

As I rapidly approach my 5th star....

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Post #: 88
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