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Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 9:20:23 AM   
Gregorovitch55

 

Posts: 191
Joined: 2/11/2014
Status: offline 		I've got a situation where I've enslaved a race at their home world (and a few of their other colones) and having looked up what I can I realise their pop won't grow. This world has the Trade Bazaar and Holographic wonders, so ideally i would like to build it's population with family races. In the mean time these wonders are costing me the earth and retuning diddly squat.

1. How can you designate a penal colony so the slaves are moved there?

2. Can you destroy these wonders at their current location and rebuild them at your home world (and do you need the tech for them to be researched to do so)?



< Message edited by Gregorovitch55 -- 6/19/2014 10:21:15 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 9:46:55 AM   
fenrislokison

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/2/2014
Status: offline 		1. select a world not too far away from the world you want to be bug-free (or monkey-free or fish-free), set its policy to assimilate/Exterminate. It will be the penal colony. Put some troops (around 1-2 per billion population) to avoid revolts.
Set the world your want to be bug-free to assimilate/resettle => passengers ships will start to pick bugs from this world and send them to the penal colony.
Set all other worlds to assimilate/do not accept to avoid the bugs to come here.

2. Yes, as far as i know. But i read there is a delay between the destruction and possibility of rebuild of a wonder (around 2 months)

(in reply to Gregorovitch55)
Post #: 2
RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 10:35:03 AM   
Tehlongone


Posts: 208
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline 		Well if you just want to clear the world out to utilize it better with your own race then resettlement by itself will be sufficient or exterminate for the fast if somewhat wasteful solution.

As I understand it penal colonies don't work unless you've selected the setting as a policy. Otherwise like Fenrislokison said, except he probably meant assimilate/enslave rather than exterminate.

(in reply to fenrislokison)
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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 10:35:48 AM   
Gregorovitch55

 

Posts: 191
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fenrislokison

set its policy to assimilate/Exterminate. It will be the penal colony.



Did you mean assimilate/enslave?

Also, i did not set use penal colonies at the start of the game, but I changed it later - will that matter?

Also when you say "not too far away" do you actually mean "within passenger ship range", i.e. sector range, or is there another parameter that governs how near a penal colony needs to be?

Also I take it there is not actually any indication on the UI that colony is a penal colony, just that other races are set to "enslaved"?

< Message edited by Gregorovitch55 -- 6/19/2014 11:42:03 AM >

(in reply to fenrislokison)
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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 11:11:01 AM   
Tehlongone


Posts: 208
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55

Also, i did not set use penal colonies at the start of the game, but I changed it later - will that matter?

Also when you say "not too far away" do you actually mean "within passenger ship range", i.e. sector range, or is there another parameter that governs how near a penal colony needs to be?

Also I take it there is not actually any indication on the UI that colony is a penal colony, just that other races are set to "enslaved"?

It's a policy so it'll work from the time it's enacted to the time it's repealed, makes no difference that you only activated it now.

As I understand it the penal colonies prevent the resettled races from going to foreign colonies instead of your enslavement colonies, therefore it should work within a very large range, though the close ones takes precedence I suppose.

If there aren't any penal colonies already the AI picks one or more planets and renames them to have penal colony in it's name, but if you assign enslave setting on some of your planets then I believe all such planets count as penal planets.

(in reply to Gregorovitch55)
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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 11:47:50 AM   
fenrislokison

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/2/2014
Status: offline 		hello again

sorry, i was a bit in a rush since it was lunch time, i saw my colleagues leave and my stomach started to make a ruckus

So yes, assimilate/enslave for the penal colony is sufficient, but i noticed that once the world is filled, the migration stops. By setting the policy to exterminate, you are sure there is always enough space to welcome the newcomers

There is also another positive point: the immigrants will probably be less numerous than the neighbouring assimilated population, which means they will probably be exterminated with fewer or no turmoils.

Ideally (i never really tested it but i think it's the best way) you want your penal colony to have about 1 billion "assimilated" population, then change it to "do not accept" to limit the growth in order to always have space for the future exterminated while having a accepted population more numerous than the exterminated one.

When i said "not too far away", yes i meant one or 2 sectors away, else, from what i saw, the migration will not be quick enough.

I don't think the "penal colony" name matches a game mechanic, i think even if you name your colony "bug paradise", it will work the same.

For your information, rather than setting a penal colony, i found it easier (but more costly) to garrison about 25 troops (in case of rebellion), set 0% taxes and a starport with recreational and medical center ("have confidence, this medicine is for your own good... hohoho!") and just exterminate the unwanted population.

Another faster strategy (because exterminating takes a lot of time) is to make them rebel by putting taxes to hell and no troops, then, once they are independent, nuke them to death! (it good also for your diabolical reputation, just in case people didn't understood that you're not the kind of guy to piss off).

Then recolonize the world with your own settlers, even if the planet has a bad quality since you'll be able to heal it with a terraformer.


...
...
I must say i'm worried about my own ability to establish strategies of mass murdering...

(in reply to Tehlongone)
Post #: 6
RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 11:56:39 AM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		The point of penal colonies should be to use the population to generate income. If the penal colony is full, you need another one. I lack experience with that, though.

Extermination is a different policy, if you want slaughter colonies, feel free, but they are a different concept.

(in reply to fenrislokison)
Post #: 7
RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 12:00:37 PM   
fenrislokison

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/2/2014
Status: offline 		eeeh.... good point!

Enslaving doesn't have a lot of advantages so i must have thought a bit too far

(in reply to Bingeling)
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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 12:12:27 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		What? So enslaving Sipan 4 did not give any benefits?


(in reply to fenrislokison)
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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 12:43:02 PM   
fenrislokison

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/2/2014
Status: offline 		I surrender! please don't hurt me! i'm just your average, innocent tyrant!

I have been maliciously manipulated by all the guys on this post: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3636133 who said that enslavement didn't worked well!

The fact that it matched my own observations is just a pure coincidence!

And the fact that i only tried to enslave unhappy bugs prove that i'm a benevolent oppressor! It also showed me that it wasn't very profitable...

But! It seems in this post that evilier people who enslaved happy going species seems to have better results! Maybe i should try... huh? no i didn't say anything!

Besides, i love the perfume of nuclear-grilled boskarans in the morning light.

(in reply to Bingeling)
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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 12:58:53 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		Sipan 4 was full of nice, happy beings also known as Atuuk. Notice its population compared to my poor capital...

Beate in the image was the same, but low development and newly conquered. It never became as nice, Sipan 4 has a development bonus and became a regional capital, but was very profitable anyways.

(in reply to fenrislokison)
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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 12:59:33 PM   
Tehlongone


Posts: 208
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline 		It looks like enslaving Sipan 4 had debatable benefit. You are running 24% taxes, why?

What is the final tax income if you remove slavery and set tax as high as the populace accepts?

If you don't have significant happiness bonuses I'm guessing you just lost money.

As for using penal colonies to exterminate, that seems wasteful, why not just kill them where you found them? Faster and easier that way.

(in reply to fenrislokison)
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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 1:14:33 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		The mighty dhayut does not play nice with the inferior species, of course. Why have multiple races if all are to be played the same way? If I was worrying about income, i would at least float some recreational and medical centers about the non-spaceport colonies in that game ;-)

At a much later date, allowing for war effects to go away (tax up from 14 to 41%). 153K tax income from 407k revenue at +9 happiness. The population was much down (7537M), I am not sure why, did they migrate away from slavery?

With some assimilation it was 54% tax at +10 happiness, and 166K income. But the population increased to 7793M in that time.






(in reply to Tehlongone)
Post #: 13
RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 1:43:19 PM   
fenrislokison

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/2/2014
Status: offline 		20000 to 7000? oO

Maybe you should check if your troops didn't get fat... seems to me they eat too much snacks...

And if the snacks escaped, ehh... i mean the prisonners migrated, there are serious flaws in the security!

(in reply to Bingeling)
Post #: 14
RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 1:48:04 PM   
Tehlongone


Posts: 208
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline 		You are certain they didn't repeatedly and mindlessly rebel and got shot down by your garrison?

(in reply to fenrislokison)
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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 2:18:36 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tehlongone

You are certain they didn't repeatedly and mindlessly rebel and got shot down by your garrison?

Yes. Happy Atuuk under slavery does not rebel. And the Atuuk are always happy...

It is my AAR game, so there are lots of nice images to be found. I noticed the revenue going down, but never checked why :)

From conquest and through updates, population was:

20662 (M) (during conquest battle)
20359 (first after conquest)
20026
19306
18474
17514
16921
15605
14497
13321
11505
11097
7553

A big bump at the end. Possibly due to lots of nearby colonies to move to being conquered?



(in reply to Tehlongone)
Post #: 16
RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 2:57:13 PM   
Gregorovitch55

 

Posts: 191
Joined: 2/11/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tehlongone

If there aren't any penal colonies already the AI picks one or more planets and renames them to have penal colony in it's name, but if you assign enslave setting on some of your planets then I believe all such planets count as penal planets.


I am also playing the mighty Dhayut ( couldn't resist playing with battle spiders :) ) so the game started with all my planets set to assimilate family and enslave the rest. When I learned about this penal colony stuff I set some planets to assimilate/ensalve and changed the rest to assimilate/resettle.

The problem is no planets have had their names changed to "xxx penal colony", the slave populations are slowly falling and I can see no discernible movement of slaves from resettlement worlds to enslavement wolds.

I am very confused, and my battle spiders are getting a bit tetchy.

(in reply to Tehlongone)
Post #: 17
RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 3:23:12 PM   
Cauldyth

 

Posts: 752
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline 		Check your Empire Policy screen. There's a toggle in there for "Use Penal Colonies" which may be turned off.

(in reply to Gregorovitch55)
Post #: 18
RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/19/2014 4:37:49 PM   
Gregorovitch55

 

Posts: 191
Joined: 2/11/2014
Status: offline 		As I mentioned above, I realised that and turned it on shortly after my first invasion.

(in reply to Cauldyth)
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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/20/2014 8:40:51 AM   
Gregorovitch55

 

Posts: 191
Joined: 2/11/2014
Status: offline 		Just a couple of supplemental questions on this:

1. Has anyone actually seen a player planet change it's name to "xxx penal colony"?

2. The economic downsides of this enslavement approach seem large: happiness on planets with slaves is rock bottom, the cost of garrisons is significant, populations don't rise, tax takes pitifully small, the advertised 50% tax bonus has nothing to bite on. In my previous game I made much more money assimilating everyone, although that was playing as democracy and on normal difficulty, I stepped up to hard this time. Is this experience of it common?


< Message edited by Gregorovitch55 -- 6/20/2014 9:42:13 AM >

(in reply to Gregorovitch55)
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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/20/2014 8:43:35 AM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		I think it is somewhat broken currently. Like people probably migrating out of slavery? If you want to play the evil slave master, it is probably better to assimilate at colonies until full, and then enslave them.

The problem could be that the population drops slowly unless your own guys move in, in which case you may have to assimilate for a while to lure in some new workers.

(in reply to Gregorovitch55)
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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/20/2014 9:19:36 AM   
Tehlongone


Posts: 208
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline 		Enslavement policy is much too weak, to the point where it's really only a roleplaying thing, doesn't make economic sense. Not unless you view it as a drawn out exterminate with minor economic gain (or none) and troop practice.

I have seen player planets change names to "xxx penal colony" but only when I enacted the policy without actually having any enslave colonies. I also don't think the name itself has any importance, if it has enslave selected it should count.

(in reply to Bingeling)
Post #: 22
RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/20/2014 2:29:05 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		It been said many times that mixed species empires need more unrest,lower gdp due to added bureaucracy,etc to make pure species a gameplay choice.There is no gameplay reason not to open the borders.

Watching my human species emigrate to a dhayut colony is also pretty funny and bugged.

_____________________________


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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/20/2014 3:32:33 PM   
Cauldyth

 

Posts: 752
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline 		Maybe it's a cult of spider worshippers, going to sacrifice themselves to their gods.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)
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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/20/2014 3:51:19 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76
Watching my human species emigrate to a dhayut colony is also pretty funny and bugged.

Never underestimate the Dhayut PR machine.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)
Post #: 25
RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/20/2014 9:42:16 PM   
Tehlongone


Posts: 208
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline 		Pure species empires do already have a slight advantage as you'll never get "x race doesn't want to be part of your empire", as a slow growth empire opening your borders on a new low pop planet will just lead to it being filled with semi-loyal aliens. In that case it's a choice between long-term (purist) and short-term (mixed) gain.

I think the main problem is just that enslavement is almost never worth it, it shouldn't kill growth, just reduce it to 1-2% and it shouldn't reduce happiness unless you have more than 50% slaves.

Or maybe the economic gain should be applied directly into state income rather than as a private income that is subsequently taxed.

(in reply to Bingeling)
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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 6/20/2014 10:17:56 PM   
Gregorovitch55

 

Posts: 191
Joined: 2/11/2014
Status: offline 		I have had to modernise and introduce something called an equal opportunities policy across the empire. We just can't keep up with these soft bellied namby-pamby humans who seem to able to field almost unlimited numbers of their excuses for space ships on the back of a crackpot philosophy they call liberal democracy. Democracy, I ask you.

My battle spiders are somewhat upset about this. With good reason: humans are excellent drowned in Nepthys wine, left for 24 hours to marinade then curried in Korabbian spice, although my personal favorite is the more tender Securan, spatchcocked live at the table and barbecued with a dusting of falajian powder. I'm hoping they'll be somewhat mollified by the new toys we should now be able to get them.

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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 9/24/2014 9:10:39 AM   
Skyjack


Posts: 33
Joined: 7/28/2014
Status: offline 		So this feature seem broken, or weak. Too bad I really wanted to make a slaver race.

Has Mateix acknowledged this?

(in reply to Gregorovitch55)
Post #: 28
RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 9/25/2014 12:10:36 AM   
Flinkebeinchen


Posts: 109
Joined: 6/18/2013
From: Germany
Status: offline 		They have for sure but I guess this will be fixed in DW2.

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RE: Enslavement and penal colonies - 9/25/2014 1:25:31 PM   
Ostwindflak


Posts: 668
Joined: 1/23/2014
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Planetary bombardment on a massive scale. Then rebuild from the ground up. Any survivors should be happy they lived. Purify the conquered planets in cleansing fire.

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