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Sands of Iwo Jima - 2/21/2003 5:16:33 AM   
Snigbert

 

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Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		I just watched this movie starring 'the Duke'. If you haven't seen the movie, do yourself a favor and keep it that way because it sucks. The only redeeming quality is that it features the three surviving flag raisers from the famous photo, Ira Hayes, Doc Bradley and Rene Gagnon.

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"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the
Post #: 1
taste - 2/21/2003 5:54:33 AM   
MemoryLeak


Posts: 491
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From: Woodland, CA USA
Status: offline 		I have to assume you are a teenager for three reasons. Number one, if you were a baby boomer like myself, you would have seen the movie many times by now. Second, as you go through life you learn a few things, such as personal taste differs greatly from person to person. And third, as the saying goes, the Duke never made a bad movie.:p

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Post #: 2
- 2/21/2003 9:10:42 AM   
Snigbert

 

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From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		I am actually 28, just haven't seen all that many WWII era propaganda films. I actually liked 'The Green Berets' (I realize that was Vietnam), but otherwise I'm not much of a John Wayne fan.

I also realize people's tastes differ greatly, I was merely offering my unsolicited two cents. No offense intended to fans of 'The Duke'.

_____________________________

"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan

"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

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Post #: 3
- 2/21/2003 10:09:19 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
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Status: offline 		Aw, Snig, don't worry about it. All us Duke fans know that he couldn't act and was never in a good movie (except maybe "The Quiet Man"). What you do is kick back, forget about the wicked world, and watch the Duke act like - the Duke. His bumbling, middle-class, irascible charm, coupled with his staunch middle-class ethics and morality, made him the symbol of America as America wanted to see itself during his life and times. Surround him with some stereotyped representatives of "good guys," "bad guys," and "characters," and what you got was an hour and a half or so of beer-drinking, popcorn-munching, escapist fare. It leaves you satisfied like a good Chinese dinner - yet, somehow, soon after wanting more ... A good John Wayne movie is like a good-natured wink and a smile - there's nothing to it, but it's harmless and makes you feel good for awhile.

In this world and these times, I like his movies even more than I used to.

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And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 4
- 2/21/2003 10:05:06 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Status: offline 		Now Pastenakski -- maybe you're being a little too uncharitable. Wayne got better at acting as he aged. The Cowboys and True Grit were pretty good. Also that south-of-the-border flick where he went out to recover his kindapped grandson.

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Post #: 5
Duke - 2/21/2003 10:15:09 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Didn't John Wayne winge out of military service? I'm sure he BSed a medical condition. Kinda hard to play war heroes when you are basically a yellow belly.

Gonna get ripped for this one.

Lee Marvin, James Cobourn, Charles Bronson, Telly Savalas, Clint Eastwood, Bogie, James Mason...these are great war flick actors.

Kelly's Heroes and Cross of Iron are two of my favs.

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Post #: 6
- 2/21/2003 11:21:52 PM   
Sonny

 

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Status: offline 		The good part of Sands (IIRC) is that the Duke gets it in the end.

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Post #: 7
- 2/21/2003 11:35:14 PM   
Snigbert

 

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From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		Yes, it is true that John Wayne only served the war effort from a series of comfortable trailers on movie sets in Hollywood. Nevertheless he received military commendations from the US government for his 'contribution' in the form of propoganda films.
Personally, I think that is an insult to real veterans who actually made sacrafices to gain their medals, (or worse), heroes whose actions were overlooked because they weren't famous enough for the public to notice them.
Then the Duke has the nerve to go out there and stomp all over the memories and actions of real veterans by making ridiculous films which showed he had no understanding of what it is like to be in combat or in the military. I watched 'The Sands of Iwo Jima' with my father who is a retired Marine and a decorated combat veteran, and he spent much of the movie laughing at the ridiculousness of it. He also mentioned when he was in the Philadelphia Naval Hospital back in 1968 they had a showing of 'The Green Berets' for all of the Marines on the amputee ward, and it was received as a comedy. And I liked that one, somewhat.
I agree though, I'll take a real Veteran actor playing a combat role over a phony anytime. Did you know Rod Serling of Twilight Zone fame (and prolific screenwriter) was a Korean War Vet who was wounded in combat? Watch closely for his limp when he walks...

_____________________________

"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan

"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

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Post #: 8
Some of the early stuff... - 2/21/2003 11:36:59 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
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From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by mdiehl
[B]Now Pastenakski -- maybe you're being a little too uncharitable. Wayne got better at acting as he aged. The Cowboys and True Grit were pretty good. Also that south-of-the-border flick where he went out to recover his kindapped grandson. [/B][/QUOTE]

Some of his early stuff wasn't bad at all. Wayne's acting was
generally as good as his scripts and Directors. "Red River",
"Fort Apache", "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon", "Stagecoach", are
all classic examples of the American Western. The WW II stuff
(up too and including "Sands") was all Hollywood Propaganda
Crap---want an example without Wayne, take a look at "Battle
of the Bulge" sometime. Plenty of good actors coupled with a
lousy screenplay and ****ty direction equals a pile of steaming
crap.

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Post #: 9
- 2/21/2003 11:38:28 PM   
Snigbert

 

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Status: offline 		[B]Didn't John Wayne winge out of military service? I'm sure he BSed a medical condition. Kinda hard to play war heroes when you are basically a yellow belly.[/B]


Wait a second! A Canadian talking smack about the Duke! A Canadian known for anti-basketball heresy, no less...And I accidently agreed.

Dont make fun of our national icons, Canuck! What did Canada do during the war, after all :)

(looks at his watch and calculates how long it will take Ron to get here from Ontario.)

_____________________________

"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan

"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

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Post #: 10
snig - 2/21/2003 11:39:17 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Status: offline 		That's a stupid post. I'm not a big fan of Wayne or war prop films and agree that the WW2 prop films are dreck. But there's no intelligent thought behind the suggestion that his contribution to the war flicks is a smear against vets. As for "cowardice" and all that, Wayne was legitimately medically 4F. He was missing half of his left lung.

On the other hand, Jimmy Stewart was both a vet and a better actor.

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

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Post #: 11
- 2/21/2003 11:47:39 PM   
Snigbert

 

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Status: offline 		[B]But there's no intelligent thought behind the suggestion that his contribution to the war flicks is a smear against vets.[/B]

Hey, you should have known me long enough by now not to read my posts for intelligent thought...however, in my experience working with Veterans at an Outreach clinic (A counselling center for Vets, most commonly suffering from PTSD) , it is a very common sentiment among them. Especially Post WWII Veterans. Just so you dont think I made it up...valid or invalid, it is a common feeling and I understand and to a degree agree with it. Personally, not having served, I wouldn't consider portraying myself as a war hero of any sort, let alone accepting medals when I hadn't done anything remotely resembling valor.

_____________________________

"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan

"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 12
- 2/22/2003 12:27:12 AM   
mdiehl

 

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Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Hey, you should have known me long enough by now not to read my posts for intelligent thought...however, in my experience working with Veterans at an Outreach clinic (A counselling center for Vets, most commonly suffering from PTSD) , it is a very common sentiment among them. Especially Post WWII Veterans. Just so you dont think I made it up...valid or invalid, it is a common feeling and I understand and to a degree agree with it. Personally, not having served, I wouldn't consider portraying myself as a war hero of any sort, let alone accepting medals when I hadn't done anything remotely resembling valor[/QUOTE]

I do not recall any interview in which Wayne mistook himself for a war hero or tried to pass himself off as one. It may be true that there are vets, in particular post WW2 ones, who object to the glorification of war as hollywood often handles it. IMO it's wrong to diss John Wayne on that account, because like any citizen of his time his attitude was "I'll contribute in whatever way I can."

I'm not surprised in particular that PTSD patients have a problem with the image/films. If you are representing their opinion, then it's clear that they have confused the actor with the characters he protrayed, or the actor with the scriptwriter or director or something.

As for the cowardice thing, that's just smear. Wayne as medically unfit for duty.

Anyhow, his westerns were much better than his WW2 stuff. That's what happens when you combine a bad scriptwriter with a military propaganda film like Sands, Bataan, or In Harm's Way.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 13
- 2/22/2003 12:43:55 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		I understand where you are coming from mdiehl, and I respect your opinion, but personally I disagree. Whether it is intended or not, the actor can do more harm than good by the roles his picks and how he portrays those roles.

Consider that Eisenhower was offered the Medal of Honor at the end of the war for his contribution, and he turned it down citing that he hadn't done anything that warranted the medal. (MacArthur accepted his) How could the Duke have accepted decorations when he really hadn't made any sacrafice at all? I think that is what bothers me most about the Duke.

If he was legitimately unable to serve because he was missing half of a lung, you cant fault him for that. But having watched his films his alleged physical shortcomings didnt seem to cause any restriction of his activity in films. Or slow down his smoking.

_____________________________

"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan

"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 14
- 2/22/2003 12:46:22 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
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From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		[B]Anyhow, his westerns were much better than his WW2 stuff. That's what happens when you combine a bad scriptwriter with a military propaganda film like Sands, Bataan, or In Harm's Way.[/B]

I agree that these films would probably be bad whoever had played Wayne's role. I did like True Grit, I thought he did well in that. I just dont like to hear Wayne being exhonerated for being a great contributer or hero or anything like that.

_____________________________

"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan

"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 15
- 2/22/2003 3:18:01 AM   
YZ426f

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 5/11/2002
From: St.Louis Mo. USA
Status: offline 		'The Green Berets'.

Wasn't that the 'great' movie where the sun set in the South China Sea?


*sigh*




Lets not forget the timeless 'North To Alaska'

*grumble*


yamadog

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Post #: 16
- 2/22/2003 3:51:27 AM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]If he was legitimately unable to serve because he was missing half of a lung, you cant fault him for that. But having watched his films his alleged physical shortcomings didnt seem to cause any restriction of his activity in films. [/QUOTE]

4F is 4F. It's not really negotiable unless you're already in the military, even if you seem plenty active. My point here is that allegations of cowardice are as inappropriate for John Wayne as, for example, for a veteran who is discharged for incurable combat fatigue after some heinous experience. Medical is medical and it's pretty danged rare that someone gets around a 4F... even if they want to. So, no one found out whether or not their life hinged on whether JW's lungs were up to snuff for combat. It would have been a hell of a thing to have him serve and discover that the answer was "no."

I can't see how the roles that he played, even in the propaganda films, disparage vets. The Sgt. Striker character in Sands was not exceptionally gung ho, even for a marine. The role in In Harm's Way was bland... mostly a straight man character to offset the one played by Spencer Tracy (IIRC, who played a drunk rapist). The "I'm gonna charge that battleship with my CA" thing was stupid, but as I've said before, That's Hollywood.

I wonder what military medals or commendations Wayne recieved? Anything other than some purely honorary thing for civilians that help the military?

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 17
In Harms Way - 2/22/2003 4:32:57 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		"Spencer Tracy (IIRC, who played a drunk rapist)"

Hi, It was Kirk Douglas.

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Post #: 18
Pacific War Vetrans - 2/22/2003 4:59:24 AM   
Iron Duke


Posts: 529
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From: UK
Status: offline 		JUST A FEW FAMOUS VETS

Richard Boone - tail gunner on TBF's
Johnny Carson - US Navy
Tony Curtis - US Submariner
Jack Dempsey - US Coastguard
Kirk Douglas - US Navy
Henry Fonda - US Navy
John Glen - USMC Flyer
Charlton Heston - USAAF
Lee Marvin - USMC
James Whitmore - USMC

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Post #: 19
- 2/22/2003 5:41:30 AM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline 		"The Searchers" is a great film and Wayne gives a very good performance (probably his best). He wasn't a great actor but better than many give him credit for.

I see no reason for the slanderous comments regarding cowardice.

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Post #: 20
Iron Duke you forgot one - 2/22/2003 5:46:49 AM   
boomboom

 

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From: philadelphia
Status: offline 		Ted Williams,2wars.Singbert how did you miss this?

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I'm boomboom.I don't want to control the sea.I ain't no calvery general[horses stink].I don't want to fight the next world war.I want to go back to dog patch,and fall in love.

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Post #: 21
Annother thing about war movies - 2/22/2003 5:51:17 AM   
boomboom

 

Posts: 80
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From: philadelphia
Status: offline 		Ever notice how easy it is to kill bad guys?They sleep on guard duty,smoke at night,easy to sneek up on them.

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I'm boomboom.I don't want to control the sea.I ain't no calvery general[horses stink].I don't want to fight the next world war.I want to go back to dog patch,and fall in love.

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Post #: 22
- 2/22/2003 6:00:11 AM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Thanks Mogami! Kirk Douglas it was. I had a short circuit placing the correct name with the face.

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 23
- 2/22/2003 6:31:30 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
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From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		[B]4F is 4F. It's not really negotiable unless you're already in the military, even if you seem plenty active. My point here is that allegations of cowardice are as inappropriate for John Wayne as, for example, for a veteran who is discharged for incurable combat fatigue after some heinous experience.[/B]

If it sounded like I was accusing him of personal cowardice, it was unintentional and I apologize. I was merely trying to point out that I didnt feel he had made a real military contribution. John Wayne may have been a hundred times braver than I myself am and I have no way of knowing one way or the other. I was simply making an observation that he didnt strike me as the type of person who would be a 4F, a designation which is truly out of his control.

Here you go, from the John Wayne web page: [B]When war broke out, John Wayne tried to enlist but was rejected because of an old football injury to his shoulder, his age (34), and his status as a married father of four.[/B]

It turns out he didnt have the lung surgery until 1979 when he was battling cancer. Now, he completed his football career without missing a game and that injury didnt seem to slow him down in his movies. He would be the only guy in the US to be labelled 4F because he was 34, or because he had children. But he still represented 'The American Fighting Man' to people around the world, for better or worse. Hirohito even requested to meet John Wayne when he travelled to the US. Perhaps to thank him personally for all of the American troops who got themselves killed imitating 'The Duke' when they were on the battlefield. :)

I dont have a list of the medals he received, but he actually had his own medal created by the US which you can read about here:
http://groups.msn.com/ATributeToJohnWayneLestWeForget/dukescongressionalmedal.msnw

_____________________________

"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan

"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

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Post #: 24
AS LONG AS WE'RE AT IT... - 2/22/2003 6:44:49 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		Anybody want to check in with some nominations for Good
WW II Movies? Well Acted, Directed, and Researched? I'll start
by nominating "Das Boot" for gritty realism and lack of flaws.

Most other good ones seem to have at least one glaring error somewhere in them, but I haven't found it in "Boot"..., yet.

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Post #: 25
Re: Duke - 2/22/2003 7:15:47 AM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
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From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
[B]Didn't John Wayne winge out of military service? I'm sure he BSed a medical condition. Kinda hard to play war heroes when you are basically a yellow belly.

Gonna get ripped for this one.

Lee Marvin, James Cobourn, Charles Bronson, Telly Savalas, Clint Eastwood, Bogie, James Mason...these are great war flick actors.

Kelly's Heroes and Cross of Iron are two of my favs. [/B][/QUOTE]Somebody done been watchin' Dirty Dozen and Battle of the Bulge...

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Post #: 26
- 2/22/2003 7:26:25 AM   
Snigbert

 

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From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		I prefer the porno adaption of Das Boot, which was called 'Das Booty'

_____________________________

"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan

"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 27
Bogie in the desert...... - 2/22/2003 7:53:37 AM   
Attack Condor

 

Posts: 425
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From: Chicago
Status: offline 		Probably my all time fav propaganda film would have to be [I]Sahara[/I] with Bogart as the lovable lout American tank commander showing not only the evil double crossing Germans (boooooooooooooo... hisssssssssssssss) the concept of good ol' American ingenuity, but even his ride along passengers, the British and French :D. A bit out of place for a post in WitP, but seemed okay for Sands...desert...well.....um......heck, you know what I mean :D.

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Post #: 28
NOT QUITE WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR - 2/22/2003 7:56:58 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snigbert
[B]I prefer the porno adaption of Das Boot, which was called 'Das Booty' [/B][/QUOTE]

I can't speak with any authority on "Das Booty", so I wouldn't
want to comment on it's historical accuracy except to say that if
the subject matter is what it sounds like, I'm sure it would have
been a hit with the troops.

Does it's appearance on your list of "best movies" indicate
that your social life is primarily "single-handed"?

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 29
CROSS OF IRON - 2/22/2003 8:39:48 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Cross of Iron is one of my favourites...James Cobourne as Sgt Steiner was awesome.

James Mason in Desert Fox.

All the dudes in Kelly's Heroes.

Hey, don't forget Bogie was Coast Guard and Ernest Borgnine was USN

Hey wasn't John Wayne also a bonesmoker?:D

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 30
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