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RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/7/2014 1:09:31 PM   
Commanderski


Posts: 927
Joined: 12/12/2010
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Some very good hints and tips. Thank you very much!

You don't bomb the airfields at the start of Turn 1?

(in reply to smokindave34)
Post #: 31
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/7/2014 1:52:43 PM   
swkuh

 

Posts: 1034
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline 		Well done, thanks... routing points, nice tip.

(in reply to Commanderski)
Post #: 32
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/7/2014 2:21:30 PM   
BJP III

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 2/22/2013
Status: offline 		I thought I was the only one who had figured out how to use motorized divisions to convert bad rout locations and herd routers into pockets ;) I also like to convert the corridor from Vilnius to Minsk and the additional Eastern corridor that runs North to Daugapilus ASAP as well. These help shape the AGN and Bialystock pockets and make it almost impossible for them to be broken, while maximizing the POWs.

Another tip for LVII PzK -- two of the divisions start with low morale (80 I think). Try to find them easy combats to get the morale over 85 -- they gain morale super-fast, so it usually only takes 2-3 wins each.

One thing I struggle with is the rail line in AGN. I do not try to take Riga on T1, because I find that the attack fails too often for comfort, and if it fails, the whole situation in AGN turns into a clusterf***. Accordingly, maximizing the units in the AGN pocket requires that they not be routed off the rail line. This, in turn, slows the rail conversion, because even when the units are destroyed on T2, the FBD unit pays a big penalty for moving into Soviet hexes. And getting the rail line across the Dvina ASAP is critical to getting to L-grad before its defenses are really strong.

Note: rather than attack Riga directly, I instead convert the line Liepaja-Tukums-Jelgava-Jekabpils/Plavinas to form the pocket to the South.

@Commanderski -- it seems to work better to hold off on bombing AFs until they are about to be overrun. Instead, crank up CAP for GS (and I set Bomber GS to 0 during the AGN and AGC offensive), and allow your fighters to shred the Soviet GS. This renders the Soviet fighters much less effective, which increases AF bombing later on and reducing bomber losses.

< Message edited by BJP III -- 10/7/2014 3:27:28 PM >

(in reply to swkuh)
Post #: 33
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/7/2014 4:22:43 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		Very nice replies thank you.

A couple of questions

1)So if you move the army base AF to the target hex of the HQ you can then fly in fuel normally and not get the fuel reduction?

2)On turn one I choose to reorganize some divisions as opposed to move some commanders around and hopefully save a little fuel. AP usage seems to be more economical this way. The out of HQ penalty is -20% vrs having a different commander having a better leader rating. Turn one the Soviets have combat disadvantages and will never be weaker so my thought was get some organizing out of the way first worry then worry about command.

Is the difference between a -20% and command rating change a wash? This is one area I would like to explore more as I see a lot of AARS where the "colors" are all jumbled up.

3) SUs and fuel consumption - is it a good idea to attach Panzer and Motorized divisions to HQs with very few SUS attached to streamline fuel distribution? You may take a hit on combat power but during turns 3-5 your usually not doing as much fighting as you are just flipping hexes and advancing against poor Soviet units.

Thanks for all the feedback,

Will



< Message edited by Ketza -- 10/7/2014 5:25:27 PM >

(in reply to BJP III)
Post #: 34
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/7/2014 4:32:50 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		1) Same hex or next one in proper airbase terrain. If in the same hex remember to use manual drop and select HQ as target.
2) Impact of high leader skills is much higher than 20%. It's in terms of orders of magnitude :) Of course mixing units from different HQs in one battle costs you some CV, and should be avoided where it matters, but it's not as big as leaders.
3) HQs with higher need will proportionally ask for and get more. I think it's not that important when there is no global resource shortage. Usually at some point only vehicles (trucks) are limited, and at this point attaching non-motorized SUs to motorized combat units is not a good idea (though nowhere near to what disaster it was before being patched).

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Post #: 35
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/7/2014 4:54:43 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		Very good information ty sir. I will have to rethink my turn one use of APs.

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Post #: 36
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/7/2014 6:44:41 PM   
BJP III

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 2/22/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

1) Same hex or next one in proper airbase terrain. If in the same hex remember to use manual drop and select HQ as target.
2) Impact of high leader skills is much higher than 20%. It's in terms of orders of magnitude :) Of course mixing units from different HQs in one battle costs you some CV, and should be avoided where it matters, but it's not as big as leaders.
3) HQs with higher need will proportionally ask for and get more. I think it's not that important when there is no global resource shortage. Usually at some point only vehicles (trucks) are limited, and at this point attaching non-motorized SUs to motorized combat units is not a good idea (though nowhere near to what disaster it was before being patched).


On #1, it seems to me that it works better to drop fuel on specific units rather than on HQs. In particular, MOT divisions benefit a lot more from fuel drops than do Panzers, because they use a lot less fuel (in gallon/ton terms). Also, if a HQ has too much fuel at the end of a turn, don't they send it back?

On #2, I have never been clear on how HQs work in a mobile situation. AIUI, once an HQ moves, it can no longer allocate support units. Is that correct? But a corps HQ cannot allocate SUs to a combat more than 5 hexes away (which seems to be pretty much all of my Panzer/MOT attacks, at least early in the game), so SUs are kinda moot. Now, should you move the HQ to be within 5 hexes of a combat to add the leadership benefit (or prevent a penalty) or does moving it negate the added benefit?

On #3, relating to the point about MOT units, if you attach AFV SUs to a MOT division, it will use a lot more fuel, correct? I did not think, though, that the number of SUs in the HQ has any effect on the MPs that the attached divisions will have. I thought that was a function of (a) the distance of the HQ to the supply head, (b) the unit's distance to its HQ, (c) leadership ratings, and (d) die rolls. Is that right?

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 37
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/7/2014 7:11:48 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		#1: that is true, as tanks have higher fuel use than motorized rifle squads. However the number of motorized divisions is limited, so I think the Axis player has to think about refueling all of his fast units. At the end of turn nothing is sent back, but extra may be sent during next logistics phase. I don't remember the details about HQs sending back dumps (perhaps some are sent back in case of vehicle shortages, I'm not sure), but for sure combat units send extras over 200% need. It's rare to have units at over 200% need after a turn of movement, so that shouldn't be a problem. I think in some specific cases it might be better to refuel single motorized unit, but generally sending to HQ is not that bad choice.

#2: HQs still allocate SUs to combat after movement, but this is supposed to happen with lower chance for success. They have to be in range though. Unless divisions of the corps are operating far away from each other, you can follow the units with HQs before doing attacks, and you will get SUs in combat. Distance to first HQ doesn't count when attached to corps, so leaders work in any case (but moving closer armies and army groups theoretically increases chances for successfull roll).

#3: SUs will suck fuel from parent unit (so both units have similar fuel levels), thus can lower parent unit MP. Otherwise they do not affect it.

It seems that if you depend on fuel drops then it's better without SUs. If you depend on supply chain and HQBU it does not matter. Leaders are important in either case.

< Message edited by morvael -- 10/7/2014 8:13:15 PM >

(in reply to BJP III)
Post #: 38
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/7/2014 10:02:20 PM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline 		if the hq move then no su for deliberate attack, haste ok. ?? Is this true?

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Post #: 39
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/7/2014 10:14:26 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BJP III


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

1) Same hex or next one in proper airbase terrain. If in the same hex remember to use manual drop and select HQ as target.
2) Impact of high leader skills is much higher than 20%. It's in terms of orders of magnitude :) Of course mixing units from different HQs in one battle costs you some CV, and should be avoided where it matters, but it's not as big as leaders.
3) HQs with higher need will proportionally ask for and get more. I think it's not that important when there is no global resource shortage. Usually at some point only vehicles (trucks) are limited, and at this point attaching non-motorized SUs to motorized combat units is not a good idea (though nowhere near to what disaster it was before being patched).


On #1, it seems to me that it works better to drop fuel on specific units rather than on HQs.
In particular, MOT divisions benefit a lot more from fuel drops than do Panzers,
because they use a lot less fuel (in gallon/ton terms).
Also, if a HQ has too much fuel at the end of a turn, don't they send it back?

On #2, I have never been clear on how HQs work in a mobile situation.
AIUI, once an HQ moves, it can no longer allocate support units. Is that correct?
But a corps HQ cannot allocate SUs to a combat more than 5 hexes away (which seems to be pretty much all of my Panzer/MOT attacks,
at least early in the game), so SUs are kinda moot.
Now, should you move the HQ to be within 5 hexes of a combat to add the leadership benefit (or prevent a penalty)
or does moving it negate the added benefit?

On #3, relating to the point about MOT units,
if you attach AFV SUs to a MOT division, it will use a lot more fuel, correct?
I did not think, though, that the number of SUs in the HQ has any effect on the MPs that the attached divisions will have.
I thought that was a function of (a) the distance of the HQ to the supply head, (b) the unit's distance to its HQ,
(c) leadership ratings, and (d) die rolls. Is that right?



#1 I would not be so sure about #1 in the "future" morvael, I have run tests.
I do air drops at the end of a turn to Corp HQ's

You can test not hard.See what your MP's and fuel level are the next turn.

#2 You assign the SU's to divisions as Katze is doing at the start of turn 1 before moving- Stugs, Flamm PZs and pioneers.
Like Riga assault which works 100% of the time. Assign pioneers move divisions next to Riga then move HQ withen supply range. I always keep HQ's withen 5 hexs.
Do all ground attacks then do fuel drops to HQ's - AGS I set-up one Corp with all MoT Divisions.

#3 Keep HQ's withen 5 hexes of any attack.

Leaders are important, but I only make 1 change per turn starting turn 2 until around turn 7.

AP's are needed for HQBU's, moving arty's into 16t Army and attaching SU's to divisions.


< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/7/2014 11:17:04 PM >

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Post #: 40
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/9/2014 3:40:15 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Sample from 1.08, 1941-45 Campaign scenario with improved CV math:
XVII Corps, leader Kienitz (averaged skills: 4.4), 56th Infantry Division: CV 19.7/25.9
XVII Corps, leader Model (averaged skills: 8.0), 56th Infantry Division: CV 33.7/38.5
...in no way giving even 3 strong SUs to a division would increase it's CV by 71%

Leaders are important.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 41
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/9/2014 3:41:27 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Screen 1:





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< Message edited by morvael -- 10/9/2014 4:44:19 PM >

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Post #: 42
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/9/2014 3:41:50 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Screen 2:




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 43
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/9/2014 4:03:02 PM   
Oshawott

 

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
Status: offline 		Very cool. Displayed CV now takes leaders into account. What happens if the HQ is out of range or gets displaced? Will the displayed CV automatically be adjusted?

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 44
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/9/2014 4:54:27 PM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline 		+++++ to M + others

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Post #: 45
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/9/2014 8:52:54 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Sample from 1.08, 1941-45 Campaign scenario with improved CV math:
XVII Corps, leader Kienitz (averaged skills: 4.4), 56th Infantry Division: CV 19.7/25.9
XVII Corps, leader Model (averaged skills: 8.0), 56th Infantry Division: CV 33.7/38.5
...in no way giving even 3 strong SUs to a division would increase it's CV by 71%

Leaders are important.


Leaders are important, but turn 1 they mean nothing or 2 or 3 and ?

A skilled GHC player knows when and where leader rolls are important.

Kinda why me and MT have been bitching about the daily ( a great thing ) changes and you want balancing testing done.

Skilled GHC players (of which there are less then 10 I know of)know where and when skilled leaders are needed/ What SU's are needed / ect /ect.

We been playing GHC for yrs and 30 + games each so we know leaders are important + everything else.

The SHC side can make mistake after mistake and still win - GHC side has to play like German Supermen and never make a mistake from turns 1-7.

Your right leaders are important BUT where and when is more important. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvlvWnz2-bY&feature=related


< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/9/2014 10:18:41 PM >

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RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/10/2014 12:25:26 AM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		WOW that is a very cool new feature!

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Post #: 47
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/10/2014 8:59:55 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

WOW that is a very cool new feature!


Thks

Your the best air General Katza, but even you will have to put on your thinking cap for 1.08

This is important.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teLVRb_XP1Y



< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/10/2014 10:07:22 AM >

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Post #: 48
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/10/2014 9:06:10 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
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From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

WOW that is a very cool new feature!


This "feature" is a scenario parameter. 1.08 will ship with just one scenario having this parameter turned on, that is a copy of 41-45 Campaign. This feature is helpful, but requires more CPU power and thus is not suited while playing vs the AI, but should be good for multiplayer games. However it requires the players to learn a new set of values (I guess most are used to 7=7 German inf divs, 16=16 German panzer divs, 2=2 Soviet rifle divs), and since the rating depends on the leader it's harder to spot weak units this way - they may be strong units but under bad leader. Something to experiment with, but it allows you to more precisely determine what CVs you can expect in combat.

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 49
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/10/2014 12:19:09 PM   
Commanderski


Posts: 927
Joined: 12/12/2010
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Has that new feature been tested using the AI? I think some of us have a pretty decent computer that may have enough computer power to use it...whenever it comes out

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 50
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/10/2014 12:40:12 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Nowadays computers are more focused on processing many things in paralell, not necesarilly on processing one thing very fast. WitE does not take advantage of multiple cores, so the gains, though visible between low-end and high-end systems are not as big as they could. But you can create a copy of any scenario with this feature turned on if you like, the stock patch will come with just one, the most popular.

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Post #: 51
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/10/2014 4:38:44 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		While this is a neat feature, I assume it only reflects leadership values of the immediate commander. This could be somewhat deceptive, and I think I prefer the stock feature here. Unless it somehow averages the leadership strength across the whole chain of command.

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RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/10/2014 4:43:57 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Since chances to pass a roll (as diplayed on unit supply details screen) include effect of superior leaders, the modified CV also includes that. There are still parts of the big picture missing, that is those skills which affect fire combat - like initiative skill. Fire combat is actually one big black box in this system. I can't help that.

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Post #: 53
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/10/2014 4:47:10 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Normal GC, Pavlov in command of Western Front:




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(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 54
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/10/2014 4:47:31 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Zhukov:




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Post #: 55
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/10/2014 5:09:28 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Ok, cool. I guess I will use this after all. The initiative rating thing isn't a deal breaker for me.

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RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/10/2014 7:59:45 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Sample from 1.08, 1941-45 Campaign scenario with improved CV math:
XVII Corps, leader Kienitz (averaged skills: 4.4), 56th Infantry Division: CV 19.7/25.9
XVII Corps, leader Model (averaged skills: 8.0), 56th Infantry Division: CV 33.7/38.5
...in no way giving even 3 strong SUs to a division would increase it's CV by 71%

Leaders are important.

very nice improvement

and thanks to Ketza for sharing

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 57
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/11/2014 5:54:02 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		"Why the pz with OKH?"

"that comes later. They will get moved to AGS Panzer corps. Moving them to OKH costs less APS which are at a premium. When you attach them later in the turn they will be free moves."

This is why I stopped playing WITE and have moved on. One could spend a life time figuring out these subtle loop holes to circumvent the designer's intent. No disrespect intended - this is brilliant


Cheers




< Message edited by Marquo -- 10/11/2014 6:57:43 PM >

(in reply to smokindave34)
Post #: 58
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/13/2014 12:19:54 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"Why the pz with OKH?"

"that comes later. They will get moved to AGS Panzer corps. Moving them to OKH costs less APS which are at a premium. When you attach them later in the turn they will be free moves."

This is why I stopped playing WITE and have moved on. One could spend a life time figuring out these subtle loop holes to circumvent the designer's intent. No disrespect intended - this is brilliant


Cheers





Allot of loop-holes have been closed, allot of bugs and swapping errors fixed. .8 is a major overhaul.


< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/13/2014 1:20:45 PM >

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Post #: 59
RE: My Axis first turn basics - 10/13/2014 2:43:23 PM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline 		Say Marquo,

1) Lots of games have loop holes. Players may agree not to use them.

2) "moved on", to what, always interested in other opportunities myself.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 60
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