Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Hi all,

I have a question which may seem strange.

Lately (I think after one of the latest beta modifications), I've noticed something pretty strange happening to my LCUs.

Here's the context:

Let's assume you have a stack of units in hex x:y.
The hex x:y is 46 miles (1 hex) far from your closest base, which has more than 2x needed supplies.
Let's say this stack is formed by 2 Infantry LCUs, 2 AA LCUs and 1 HQ LCU.
The stack is fully supplied. There are no supplies problem all over the theatre.
You own the hex x:y.
An enemy stack arrives in the hex, which remains yours.
The enemy sends his bombers to bomb your troops.
The AA LCUs fire as usually.
When you open the operation report, among the usual messages, you find this:

xxth AA Battalion isolated with no supply!
xxth Ind.AA Gun Co isolated with no supply!
xxth Air Defense AA Regiment isolated with no supply!
xxth Air Defense AA Battalion isolated with no supply!

When checking the units, after the reply, you find that those units suffered the loss of some devices/squads, even if, during the bombing runs, they combat report didn't report any distrupted/lost device, so I assume the lost devices/squads are due to the "isolation without supplies" messages.
As one might guess, when you look at the AA LCUs involved in those messages, they have plenty of supplies, right because there is no supply problem in the theatre.

So, I guess those units used the embedded supplies they initially had for firing at the incoming bombers and then, before the "supply movement" phase was done, the AI checked and "saw" that there were units without supplies sharing an hex with the enemy's LCU, so the "penalty" was added and those squads/devices were "lost".

If it is so, I think it is wrong. Those units shouldn't be penalized by the code with the loss of devices, because they remained without supplies just for the small fraction of time between the bomber attacks and the supply/movement phase.

Anyone else noticed this?

Thanks in advance

GJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Noticed this as well. Basically, IMHO, it is just an unlucky choice of words. If it was 'in contact with enemy forces and low on supply' instead of 'isolated with no supply' then noone would raise an eyebrow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

That is not how the turn is processed.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

That is not how the turn is processed.

Alfred

Nice to know Alfred, thanks.
However those units that are using their supplies in the Air Combat resolution phase shouldn't, IMHO, be penalized in this way if they can successfully draw supplies during the same turn. Do you agree on that?
If I remember well, that penalty was made in order to force the units without supplies and isolated from a supply source to slowly fade away, instead of living forever (if unmolested by the enemy) easting grass and dirt.
The way it is working now sounds (at least to my ears) like it is not 100% WAD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

That is not how the turn is processed.

Alfred

Nice to know Alfred, thanks.
However those units that are using their supplies in the Air Combat resolution phase shouldn't, IMHO, be penalized in this way if they can successfully draw supplies during the same turn. Do you agree on that?
If I remember well, that penalty was made in order to force the units without supplies and isolated from a supply source to slowly fade away, instead of living forever (if unmolested by the enemy) easting grass and dirt.
The way it is working now sounds (at least to my ears) like it is not 100% WAD

I'm not exactly certain I understand fully what are the conditions which are applying here.

Have a read of my post #10 in this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3710936

and see if that clarifies the supply process for you. In any case if my post is not relevant then you pointing out where it isn't useful might clarify for me exactly what is your problem.

Essentially your flak units firing would normally not fully exhaust their internal organic supply in the one turn. That it appears they are doing so strikes me as being the more critical issue here.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

That is not how the turn is processed.

Alfred

Nice to know Alfred, thanks.
However those units that are using their supplies in the Air Combat resolution phase shouldn't, IMHO, be penalized in this way if they can successfully draw supplies during the same turn. Do you agree on that?
If I remember well, that penalty was made in order to force the units without supplies and isolated from a supply source to slowly fade away, instead of living forever (if unmolested by the enemy) easting grass and dirt.
The way it is working now sounds (at least to my ears) like it is not 100% WAD

I'm not exactly certain I understand fully what are the conditions which are applying here.

Have a read of my post #10 in this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3710936

and see if that clarifies the supply process for you. In any case if my post is not relevant then you pointing out where it isn't useful might clarify for me exactly what is your problem.

Essentially your flak units firing would normally not fully exhaust their internal organic supply in the one turn. That it appears they are doing so strikes me as being the more critical issue here.

Alfred

Hi Alfred, thanks.

I always read very carefully your posts and have read that one closely too.
Unfortunately it doesn't clarify the present problem.

Ok, let me try to explain myself a bit better:

When I press "end turn", the units in the stack are ALL in full supply condition. All are white.
The supply path is the best possible: there is a base, one hex away, connected with the stack we're talking about by major road and major RailRoad.
The next turn the allied bombers attack that stack and the flak LCUs fire back.
Obviously I don't know if, in mid turn time, those flak units have consumed 10,50 or 100% of their embedded supplies.
What I know is that, after the turn resolution (replay), all the LCUs present in the stack are back to 100% supply, BUT, in the op report, I see that message about the penalty suffered ONLY by the AA units that were present in the hex.

From these data, what I understand is that:
1. the AA units were in 100% supply situation at the beginning of the turn resolution
2. the AA units consumed ALL their supplies (if I have to believe to what the op report says) during the bombing attacks.
3. the AA units are then checked by the AI and got penalized by the distuction of few squads/devices because caught WITHOUT supplies.
4. after the supply/movement phase, when the turn resolution is over, all the AA units involved are back to 100% supplies.

Does it make sense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

That is not how the turn is processed.

Alfred

Nice to know Alfred, thanks.
However those units that are using their supplies in the Air Combat resolution phase shouldn't, IMHO, be penalized in this way if they can successfully draw supplies during the same turn. Do you agree on that?
If I remember well, that penalty was made in order to force the units without supplies and isolated from a supply source to slowly fade away, instead of living forever (if unmolested by the enemy) easting grass and dirt.
The way it is working now sounds (at least to my ears) like it is not 100% WAD

I'm not exactly certain I understand fully what are the conditions which are applying here.

Have a read of my post #10 in this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3710936

and see if that clarifies the supply process for you. In any case if my post is not relevant then you pointing out where it isn't useful might clarify for me exactly what is your problem.

Essentially your flak units firing would normally not fully exhaust their internal organic supply in the one turn. That it appears they are doing so strikes me as being the more critical issue here.

Alfred

Hi Alfred, thanks.

I always read very carefully your posts and have read that one closely too.
Unfortunately it doesn't clarify the present problem.

Ok, let me try to explain myself a bit better:

When I press "end turn", the units in the stack are ALL in full supply condition. All are white.
The supply path is the best possible: there is a base, one hex away, connected with the stack we're talking about by major road and major RailRoad.
The next turn the allied bombers attack that stack and the flak LCUs fire back.
Obviously I don't know if, in mid turn time, those flak units have consumed 10,50 or 100% of their embedded supplies.
What I know is that, after the turn resolution (replay), all the LCUs present in the stack are back to 100% supply, BUT, in the op report, I see that message about the penalty suffered ONLY by the AA units that were present in the hex.

From these data, what I understand is that:
1. the AA units were in 100% supply situation at the beginning of the turn resolution
2. the AA units consumed ALL their supplies (if I have to believe to what the op report says) during the bombing attacks.
3. the AA units are then checked by the AI and got penalized by the distuction of few squads/devices because caught WITHOUT supplies.
4. after the supply/movement phase, when the turn resolution is over, all the AA units involved are back to 100% supplies.

Does it make sense?

My situation I am trying to describe was:
1) My units were moving from one hex to next, not enemy in hex
2) They all have supplies for 3+ days, not red or yellow markers
3) A few Hellens drop bombs on my Arty units, changing they stance "move" to "combat"
4) 4 Arty units were route due of isolation and luck of supplies and took heavy losses, 2 Arty were destroyed for the same reason
5) other not bombed units continued moving forward
6) all units in hex had still 3+ days supplies at the end of turn, no supplies problem, no overstack etc ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

...Ok, let me try to explain myself a bit better:

When I press "end turn", the units in the stack are ALL in full supply condition. All are white.
The supply path is the best possible: there is a base, one hex away, connected with the stack we're talking about by major road and major RailRoad.
The next turn the allied bombers attack that stack and the flak LCUs fire back.
Obviously I don't know if, in mid turn time, those flak units have consumed 10,50 or 100% of their embedded supplies.
What I know is that, after the turn resolution (replay), all the LCUs present in the stack are back to 100% supply, BUT, in the op report, I see that message about the penalty suffered ONLY by the AA units that were present in the hex.

From these data, what I understand is that:
1. the AA units were in 100% supply situation at the beginning of the turn resolution
2. the AA units consumed ALL their supplies (if I have to believe to what the op report says) during the bombing attacks.
3. the AA units are then checked by the AI and got penalized by the distuction of few squads/devices because caught WITHOUT supplies.
4. after the supply/movement phase, when the turn resolution is over, all the AA units involved are back to 100% supplies.

Does it make sense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

I've run a "real live" test: I've bombed the allied enemy stack in the same contested hex (obvert's stack). After the turn I ask him and he confirmed his AA units that fired against my bombers got the very same message "unit isolated and with no supply" and suffered some squads/devices lost during the turn.

The "process" i've descrived above seems to be confirmed. That "check" is made before the supply movement phase, so if a unit fires all its supply during the air/bombing phase, then it is penalized BEFORE with disabled/destroyed squads before it can have a chance to draw fresh supplies... doesn't seem WAD imho.

I will post it in the tech support and see what Micheal thinks about it

Thanks for the attention guys