Slitherine

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32. U.S. Refutes Naval War Zones – The U.S.A. may use its own convoy points to ship any resources and/or builds points that the U.S.A. is lend-leasing to any allied major power. These convoy points may be attacked by Axis units even if they are not at war with the USA. Clarification: Since the quantity of resources and build points being lend-leased is known from the Lending Stage of each turn, that number is the upper limit that the Axis can destroy during the turn in each sea area through which the lend-leased resources and/or build points could be shipped
50. Unrestricted Naval Warfare – U.S. naval and aircraft units at sea can freely attack, and be attacked by, any Axis naval and aircraft units. You still can’t port attack, shore bombard, ground strike, strategically bombard, carpet bomb, or fly ground support. You can escort Allied convoys in any sea area with any number of SCS or CVs. You can now move any number of ships together as 1 naval move, instead of counting each ship as a naval move. You can only choose this entry option if you have already chosen entry option 38.

“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

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7. There is no way to place the Vichy ships out of supply. No matter where they are based in the world.
8. They can freely pass the Suez and Gibraltar.

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Is this what WiF has become.

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Metropolitan Vichy France is the home country of a new major power ~ Vichy France.
Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government.

Using Vichy units
Vichy France does not choose an action type. Instead, she takes the same action type as the major power that installed the Vichy government (even if Vichy France is neutral). Further, activities of Vichy French units count against the installing major power’s activity limits.

Vichy units may only enter a hex outside Vichy France if it is controlled by an enemy major power. They may move into hexdots and sea boxes without penalty.

Each Vichy French naval unit you move (not each task force) counts as 1 naval move unless Vichy France is hostile to an Allied major power. Vichy French naval and aircraft units at sea (except for convoy points) must always return to base during the return to base step unless Vichy France is hostile to an Allied major power.

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11.5.2 Initiating a combat

To initiate a combat, point to a sea area where you have a face-up (non-convoy) unit at war with another major power, and announce that you will initiate combat there. If you have no face-up units in the area (except convoys), you can’t initiate a combat there. If you chose an air action, the unit chosen must be an aircraft

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13.6 Production
Search and seizure
You can stop major powers on the other side that you are not at war with from transporting resources (and build points ~ see 13.6.4 Lend lease) overseas to major powers you are at war with. To do this:

• you must have an SCS, CV or SUB in the sea area during the production step;

• the major power you are not at war with must have convoy points there that are transporting resources (or build points) to a major power you are at war with; and

• there must not be an SCS, CV or aircraft unit with an air-to-sea factor, controlled by a major power you are at war with, in the sea area (or a US unit that can escort there because of US entry options 11 US east coast escorts, 20 US land-based air escort, 29 North Atlantic escorts, 38 Arm merchantmen or 50
Unrestricted naval warfare ~ see 13.3.2 US entry options).

You can then execute a search and seizure if you want to. If you do, those resources (or build points) are lost. Each search and seizure you execute is a US entry action (see 13.3.3 US entry actions) if it is conducted against a major power not at war with the USA.

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32. One of the Allies other than the USSR declares war on:
Poland, Spain, Turkey, or any American country (1 USA entry marker and a 70% chance of another will be removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland (1 USA entry marker and a 20% chance of another being removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
Other minor or Vichy France (There is a 50% chance of a USA entry marker being removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)

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Allied major powers at war with the installing major power may declare war on Vichy France. The declaration of war does not make Vichy France hostile to that Allied major power.

However, if an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France, Vichy France becomes hostile to that unit’s controlling major power.

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ORIGINAL: WarHunter

The Vichy French are not at war with any nation.
Yet, they are allowed to attack seazones with:
1. Mexican ships
2. Panamanian ships
3. Brazilian ships and air
4. US ships and air
5. CW ships carrying US air or land units.
6. Intercept any nations ships carrying US units anywhere in the world.
7. There is no way to place the Vichy ships out of supply. No matter where they are based in the world.
8. They can freely pass the Suez and Gibraltar.

All of this without lifting a finger. Vichy need not even be Hostile just neutral. Wait for the US to choose options 32 & 50.

Its made possible because of US entry options. Which the US has no option but to accept when it goes to war with Germany/Italy.

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ORIGINAL: micheljq

You can DOW Vichy France if her SCS go into a sea zone, profit of the surprise impulse and strike the fleet. That will set Vichy active, so what.

When options 32 especially 50 are played, USA is quite geared up already or will be soon. If option 50 is played, USA will be soon at war.

Another thing you can do is DOW Vichy France, strike the fleet at port on the surprise impulse with all the Commonwealth carriers you have, the damage will be heavy, but then Vichy will be hostile. I did it once, and managed to sink or damage all french Vichy battleships.

Most french battleships have only a range of 2, limiting their effectiveness. Richelieu has a range of 3 and can be quite troublesome.

The trick is to disperse all France's ships in it's colonies (except the BB), just before France falls. Sending many in the Pacific, where the chances of them being Free french are good, it must be done one or 2 turns before France falls. Also having the fleet dispersed means Germany or Italy must do naval action to move all of them at once. They can be intercepted peacemeal, or bombarded separately in their ports.

Michel.

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

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ORIGINAL: WarHunter

The Vichy French are not at war with any nation.
Yet, they are allowed to attack seazones with:
1. Mexican ships
2. Panamanian ships
3. Brazilian ships and air
4. US ships and air
5. CW ships carrying US air or land units.
6. Intercept any nations ships carrying US units anywhere in the world.
7. There is no way to place the Vichy ships out of supply. No matter where they are based in the world.
8. They can freely pass the Suez and Gibraltar.

All of this without lifting a finger. Vichy need not even be Hostile just neutral. Wait for the US to choose options 32 & 50.

Its made possible because of US entry options. Which the US has no option but to accept when it goes to war with Germany/Italy.

The answer is obvious. DoW Vichy. If you are at war with Germany/Italy, you'll be at Total War within 2 turns anyway.

Another point here. The US should not have chosen 32 and 50 until at war with everyone but Vichy. "When the US is at war with every unconquered Axis major power, you are treated as having chosen every entry option (except US entry option 44)."

Also, (normally) where is Germany getting the naval moves to move neutral Vichy ships? Like they've got nothing else to do?

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13.3.2 US entry options
When the US goes to war with a major power, you are treated as having chosen every unchosen entry option aimed at that major power. You still roll for each of these options but don’t have to move a marker to the tension pool when called for unless you so desire (except for your declaration of war ~ see 9.4 US entry). You do this on a case by case basis.

When the US is at war with every unconquered Axis major power, you are treated as having chosen every entry option (except US entry option 44 US occupies Northern Ireland).

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9.4 US entry
The USA can declare war on Germany and Italy in the same step but it can’t attempt to declare war on Japan in the same step as it attempts to declare war on either of the others.

The USA may declare war on Vichy France (see 17. Vichy France) in any declaration of war step provided the USA is at war with Germany or Italy. This is automatically successful (see US entry action 32 US refutes Naval War zones).

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Vichy French collapse
Each home country or territory aligned with Vichy France becomes conquered by any Axis major power that has a land unit in it. Other home countries and territories aligned with Vichy France align with Free France (or become Free France with a new home country if it is currently completely conquered).
Move all Vichy land and aircraft units in Metropolitan Vichy France to the Free French force pools. All other Vichy land and aircraft units are now Free French.

All Vichy naval units on the production circle, construction pool and repair pool become controlled by the Axis major power that caused the collapse.

All on map Vichy naval units are now Free French. Treat each of them in a home country or territory now controlled by an Axis major power as if it had been surprised when overrun (see 11.11.6 Overruns).

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Each Vichy French naval unit you move (not each task force) counts as 1 naval move unless Vichy France is hostile to an Allied major power.

Vichy French naval and aircraft units at sea (except for convoy points) must always return to base during the return to base step unless Vichy France is hostile to an Allied major power.

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

If no one has DoWed Vichy France it is a Neutral major power. It is not an Axis major power even though it is controlled by the Axis major power that installed it.

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AUSTRALIAN DESIGN GROUP WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary © 2009, Australian Design Group
2.4 Supply
Q2.4-1 2.4.2 May Axis units trace supply through Vichy French territory when it is
(a) neutral, (a) No.
(b) active (b) Yes.
(c) active and hostile? (c) Yes.
Date 25/06/2008
2.4.2: You can’t trace any supply path: 3rd bullet is : into a hex controlled by a neutral country (exception: Vichy territory ~ see 17.4 and Sweden ~ see 19.7); or
25/06/2008


5.1 Trade agreements
Q5.1-1 5.1 Are Trade Agreements cancelled upon
(a) Incomplete Conquest? (a) No
(b) Complete Conquest? (b) yes
(c) Vichyfication? (c) no.
Date 05/07/2007
5.1: They continue until either country involved in the trade agreement is completely conquered or as specified below.
05/07/2007


9.6 Calling out the reserves
9.6: Each major power (exception: Vichy France, see 17.3) has reserve units that you can call out when it goes to war with another major power.


13.7 Peace
13.7.5: Return half of the liberated country’s units not currently in the game (by type, rounding fractions up) to its force pools (except France’s if Vichy was installed).
4.1.3: When a unit is destroyed or old enough, you can remove it from your force pools (see 13.6.9).
Q13.7-16 13.7.5
17.4
Can the CW return (Reversion) a Vichy territory (or minor home country) to the Free French?
Yes.
Date 07/03/2008
13.7.5: You can return a hex or minor country you control to the major power that controlled it in 1939
during any liberation step.
17.4: If an Allied major power liberates other territory controlled by France in 1939, it may return it to Free
French control in any liberation step.
07/03/2008

Q13.7-17 13.7.5
Q1: Prior to liberation of France is there any penalty for not reverting vichy controlled territory to Free France?
Q1: There is no penalty until Paris is liberated.
Q2: After liberation, what are the consequences if the CW does not?
Q2: If Free France's allies do not hand back the 1939 French territory they control at that point, they can no longer cooperate with France. Date 06/03/2008
Q3: Is there any penalty for not liberating France other than France now being treated as red for Partisans?
Q3: No. Date 12/05/2008
13.7.5: If they could return territory but don’t, they can never co-operate with the liberated major power.
12/05/2008

Q13.7-18 13.7.5 Since Vichy France minors are aligned, they are conquered, correct (see 13.7.1 4th paragraph)?
So how can you liberate them? If you can't liberate them, how can you return them to Free France?
They are not conquered, they are aligned to Vichy and can be conquered from her.
Their hexes can all be reverted to Free France which is the successor to 1939 France. Date 28/12/2007
13.7.1: You cannot conquer a conquered minor country or territory. You may only liberate or revert it (see
13.7.5).
13.7.5: Instead, the major power controlling its capital can liberate it during the peace step if that major power is from the other side to the major power that
conquered it.
28/12/2007

Q13.7-19 13.7.5 18.1
If (after having been Vichyfied) France is liberated by the USA, then does the CW cease to cooperate with France?
[CW cooperated with Free France, but Free France ceases to exist at France's liberation]
"Liberated France" succeeds Free France.
Only if the CW refuses to revert liberated territory back to LF/FF would it lose the ability to cooperate. Date 18/01/2008
13.7.5: When France is liberated, Free France ceases to exist and all Free French units, and Territories become French. France is controlled by the liberating major power and is at war with all countries Free France was at war with.
18.1:
7. Commonwealth and Free French units co-operate.
(...)
No other units co-operate.
18/01/2008


17.1 Creation (thise questions are only about creating Vichy)
Q17.1-1, Q17.2-2, Q17.2-4, Q17.2-5, and Q17.2-6


17.4 Running Vichy France
Q17.4-1 deals with activity limits
Q17.4-2 and Q17.4-4 deal with Collapsing Vichy

Q17.4-3 17.4, 9., 11.16.5
After a combat result of an R, S or B may the Allied player retreat axis units into Vichy territory and cause the collapse of Vichy?
No. Date 29/12/2007
11.16.5: You can’t retreat a unit into a hex it couldn’t move into.
9.: You can’t enter a hex controlled by:
(…)
ï a neutral major power on your side; or 17.4: If an Axis unit enters any hex in Metropolitan Vichy France before an Allied unit does, Vichy France collapses.
29/12/2007


17.5 Combat with Vichy
Option 63
What about Intel points, veto points, etc? Does Free France "inherit" these?
How does Free France roll for Intel? (as France?)
Free France loses all intell, half goes to whoever imposed Vichy. Free France then rolls normally. Date 29/12/2007
22.1: In the peace step that a major power’s home country (the UK only for the Commonwealth) is conquered, or a Vichy government installed, that major power loses all accumulated intelligence points and the conquering major power gains half of them.
29/12/2007


22.2 Factory destruction & construction (option 30)
Q22.2-2 22.2 Option 30
Q1 : Can Germany destroy blue French factories after Vichy, if no CW units are in France?
Q1: Only if there are other Allied units in France, no otherwise. Date 16/01/2008
Q2: Do partisans count?
Q2: Yes. Date 07/03/2008
22.2: You may also destroy a blue factory if an enemy land unit occupies a hex in the country.
07/03/2008

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

When you say FAQ do you mean "the 2008 WiF Annual (incl Factories in Flames)" or the "WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary © 2009"?


Q2.4-1 2.4.2 particularly points out the differences between the three states of Vichy France.

Vichy France is controlled by the major power that installs it. It does not make Vichy France an Axis major power.

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ORIGINAL: Centuur
I do not agree on Vichy not being on the Axis side. It is an Axis major power. There are references in the rules and the FAQ which support this...

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Metropolitan Vichy France is the home country of a new major power ~ Vichy France.

Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government.

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Up to six players will manage the economies and conduct the military operations of the major nations involved in that conflict, either as a member of the Axis (Germany, Italy and Japan) or as one of the Allies (China, the Commonwealth, France, the USSR and the USA).

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17.1 Creation
Free France is considered an incompletely conquered major power from now on unless otherwise specified. It is run by the French player.

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

As a Neutral major power Vichy France cannot initiate a naval combat because they are not at war.

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11.5.2 Initiating a combat

To initiate a combat, point to a sea area where you have a face-up (non-convoy) unit at war with another major power, and announce that you will initiate combat there. If you have no face-up units in the area (except convoys), you can’t initiate a combat there. If you chose an air action, the unit chosen must be an aircraft

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ORIGINAL: Centuur
Mr. Extranous...
I do not agree at all. However, if you want to make sure, why don't you ask ADG? Want to bet on this? Let's say € 100,--. Of course I bet on the fact that Vichy France is on the Axis side.
Are you on?

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9.1 Neutral major powers
A major power is a ‘neutral major power’ if it is not at war with any other major power. If it is at war with at least 1 major power, it’s called an ‘active major power’.

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11.5.2 Initiating a combat
To initiate a combat, point to a sea area where you have a face-up (non-convoy) unit at war with another major power, and announce that you will initiate combat there. If you have no face-up units in the area (except convoys), you can’t initiate a combat there. If you chose an air action, the unit chosen must be an aircraft.

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Example: A combat includes a Commonwealth and a US naval unit against a Japanese and a German unit. The US is at war with Japan and the Commonwealth is at war with Germany. You fight this as one combat even though US units can’t fight Germans and Japanese units can’t fight Commonwealth. The Japanese unit is sunk. In the next round, the US unit isn’t included because it can’t fight German units.
Exceptions to the restriction on neutral naval units fighting are US units escorting Allied convoys (see 13.3.2 US entry options 11, 29, 38) and all US units after unrestricted naval warfare is chosen (entry option 50).

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11.5.11 Multiple naval combat rounds
If any units at war with each other remain in this sea area, go back to step 1 in the combat sequence (see 11.5.1 Combat sequence) and run through the sequence again. This continues until one side has no units at war with any units on the other side in this sea area, or until the combat search rolls don’t produce another combat round.

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11. US east coast escorts - Once you choose this entry option, up to 5 US CVs or SCS (you choose which and there is no limit after the US is at war with Germany or Italy) in the 0 section of the US East Coast sea area, can take part in any combat round in which Allied convoys are included, even though you remain neutral. There is no US entry effect for fighting.
29. North Atlantic escorts - Once you choose this entry option, up to 5 US CVs or SCS (you choose which and there is no limit after the US is at war with Germany or Italy) in the 0 section of the North Atlantic sea area, can take part in any combat round in which Allied convoys are included, even though you remain neutral. There is no US entry effect for fighting. You can’t choose this entry option unless you have already chosen entry option 11.

38. Arm merchantmen - Once you choose this entry option, up to 5 US CVs or SCS (you choose which and there is no limit after the US is at war with Germany or Italy) in the 0 section of any sea area, can take part in any combat round in which Allied convoys are included, even though you remain neutral. There is no US entry effect for fighting. You can’t choose this entry option unless you have already chosen entry option 29.

50. Unrestricted naval warfare - US naval and aircraft units at sea can freely attack, and be attacked by, any Axis naval and aircraft units. You still can’t port attack, shore bombard, ground strike, strategically bombard, carpet bomb, or fl y ground support. You can escort Allied convoys in any sea area with any number of SCS or CVs.
You can now move any number of ships together as 1 naval move, instead of counting each ship as a naval move. You can only choose this entry option if you have already chosen entry option 38.

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32. US refutes Naval War zones - The USA may use its own convoy points to ship any resources and/or builds points that the USA is lend-leasing to any allied major power. These convoy points may be attacked by Axis units even if they are not at war with the USA.

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13.4 Return to base
A unit must return to base during this step if it is:
• any unit (except convoy points) of a neutral major power; or
• a TRS with a cargo on board; or
• any unit (except convoy points) in the 0 section.

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ORIGINAL: Courtenay

I repeat my question:

Does anyone know what MWiF does when the US is at war with Germany, Italy and Japan, but Vichy France exists and is neutral?

Not "What should MWiF do?", but "What does MWiF do?"

People are debating the first question, and have opinions on it. The second has a definite answer (At least, I sure hope it does ), and I am curious as to what it is. Does anyone know? I could test it, but do not want to spend the time to do so if someone already knows the answer.

The two questions may or may not have the same answer, but, even if we can decide on the answer to the first question, we need to know what MWiF does before we can decide if it is right.

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ORIGINAL: composer99

Having never seen this kind of situation come up in a game I can't say I find it especially troubling.

That said, I agree the text of the options should be cleaned up such that the Axis units in question are (a) at war with the recipients of the resources/build points being lent by the US (in the case of option 32), or (b) active major powers (in the case of option 50). Such clarifications would eliminate neutral Vichy French shenanigans pertaining to the US while still allowing the US the ability to fulfill the intent of those options (that is, flip the figurative bird at Germany & Japan).

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7. There is no way to place the Vichy ships out of supply. No matter where they are based in the world.
8. They can freely pass the Suez and Gibraltar.

Both of those considerations apply to any single neutral Axis naval unit, so I'm not sure what the problem is here. I mean, nothing's stopping the Germans from, say, calling a combined impulse in the very first impulse of the game and, provided they have a ship with the range, sailing it through the Pillars of Hercules.

(Also, the point about supply depends upon the optional rules in play, but as a general matter, if you're not at war with country X, why would your forces cut off country X's overseas supply lines?)

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Is this what WiF has become.

RAW7 has been out since 2004. In 10 years, if this wasn't a big enough deal for ADG to revise the rules (since I personally would), it's either because it happens so vanishingly rarely as to not be worth the trouble (for ADG), or ADG's design intent for the game allows for more ahistorical action than you, personally, are comfortable with. (*)

(*) Never mind the game's basic premise that the Axis have a shot at military victory, which is at least as ahistorical (if not obvious to contemporaries of the time) as Vichy-US shenanigans, and certainly more significant.