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HE values in game are all wrong ?!

 
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HE values in game are all wrong ?! - 2/23/2003 8:13:03 PM   
Gavris Narcis

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/19/2000
Status: offline 		Hi gamers,


Continuing my searching for penetration/ballistics shells formulas I discovered that all the values in the game for HE ammo were WRONG !!!!
Maybe I'm wrong myself, but I redone the calculation dozens of times and I receive the same result: IN GAME THE PENETRATION VALUES FOR HE SHELLS WERE AT LEAST 200% MORE THAN REAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a look:

>>>Restricting ourselves to instantaneous-nose-fuzed (not hardened for armor impact and with no special delay, which were options in a few special-purpose impact nose fuzes used in WWII), HE-booster (trinitrophenol or more powerful booster explosive; not black-powder), Large-Cavity HE/HC projectiles without an ADF (including time fuzes and VT fuzes, which will act as such fuzes on impact), we get from U.S. and German tests the HE Projectile Armor Penetration Formula (No ADF) for blowing a caliber-wide or larger hole in the plate:

Tphe(noADF) = (2.576 x 10-20)(D)V5.6084COS[2(Ob2 - 45o)] + (0.156)(D)

assuming an STS plate of thickness Tphe hit by an HE projectile of diameter D (both in any units, as long as the same units are used for both Tphe and D) at a striking velocity of V in English feet/second units. "Ob2" in degrees is set to 45o if Ob is under 45o, eliminating the cosine term, and Ob2 is equal to Ob for values of Ob over 45o obliquity; this rapidly eliminates the effects of projectile velocity as the projectile is oriented more and more parallel to the plate at high obliquity and thus digs its nose in less and less on impact prior to the projectile detonating (under 45o obliquity, the nose dents the plate and digs in its nose into any plate thin enough to be subject to this formula). Note that the minimum plate thickness that will barely have a caliber-wide hole made in it even at zero striking velocity is 0.156 caliber of STS (1.25" for the 240-pound 8" HE projectile mentioned previously), with over 0.1872 caliber of STS (1.2 times 0.156 caliber, over 1.498" for the 8" HE projectile) needed to stop a through-crack in a dented STS plate. Note how little the striking velocity increases penetration until it nears the gun's muzzle velocity.

If the projectile has an ADF, but is otherwise identical, and is 10" or less in diameter, the following HE Projectile Armor Penetration Formula (ADF) gives a Tphe(ADF) value that replaces the above no ADF formula Tphe(noADF) value if and only if Tphe(ADF) is greater than Tphe(noADF); otherwise, always use Tphe(noADF):

Tphe(ADF) = [(0.00013333)(D)V + 0.033333]COS[2(Ob2 - 45o)]

with Tphe, D, V, and Ob2 defined as in the T(noADF) formula. This second formula is linear and from what I can figure out has to do with how deep the projectile nose can dig into the plate prior to detonating compared to the total length of the nose fuze and ADF. The ADF increases the delay by a more-or-less fixed amount and in a smaller projectile this allows a much lower striking velocity for the nose to dig into the plate deep enough prior to exploding so that the upper end of the main explosive cavity itself is touching the plate when the explosion occurs, allowing the main filler charge to assist directly in blowing open the hole, while for larger (over-10") HE/HC projectiles with an ADF, the much larger nose does not dig deep enough even with the added delay until the striking velocity increases considerably, eliminating this effect, so the projectile fragments must blow open the hole by themselves, though obviously assisted by the filler blast behind them.
>>>>>>>>

Now, when make calculation for example for 150 mm HE nofused shell and supposing the speed at 1500 feet/second the first formula give us in the best circumstances (obliquity=45) MAX. 25mm armor penetration !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If we supposed the same shell but timefused (with ADF, but very rare utilized in ww2 for HE) the value is MAX. 30mm penetration !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Now look at the most HE penetration values for 150mm in game: these are aprox. 58mm ?????????????????????????? It's almost 200% more than the calculations.......
Of course, I supposed the armour been a hardened one, not mild steel !
In which consist this big difference ? Because if I have right all the game basis for HE is false......and we make dreams about battles in ww2 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please take a look and comment my problem.

Leo.
Post #: 1
- 2/23/2003 8:48:32 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		I have sources stating that penetration for 150mm shells (German) at 30 degrees angle is 160mm. 15 cm shells pack one h*ll of a whallop.

I don't have time right now to verify your calculations, Gavris, but from combat records and so on - doesn't 25mm pen. for a 15 cm shell seem a bit low? That means that any PzIII should be safe if not hit at the top - "real life" 15cm can knock out a Tiger. I'm just curious. :p

Any case, set the Artillery vs. Armor to 50% and see if it looks better.

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Post #: 2
I don't think so ! - 2/23/2003 9:47:31 PM   
Gavris Narcis

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/19/2000
Status: offline 		>have sources stating that penetration for 150mm shells (German) at 30 >degrees angle is 160mm. 15 cm shells pack one h*ll of a whallop.

Only for AP or APCR ammo. This 160mm is out of question for HE ammo.


>I don't have time right now to verify your calculations, Gavris, but >from combat records and so on - doesn't 25mm pen. for a 15 cm shell >seem a bit low?

Indeed, it seems, but this denote that this gun with HE isn't good for antitank pourposes. And that's the reality...It was for antiinfantry pourposes.


That means that any PzIII should be aproximative safe (I make experiments and I have not rare ocasions to destroy PzIII like this:
33 armor penetration ----33 armor = destroyed
even with HE=23 !!!!!!!! in OOB for 150 mm HE shell !!!!!!!!!!!
And not forget that 23 value in OOB could make suspension damages/disabled, stun the crew (very often) and vulnerable location hits thus destroying it !!!!!!!!!!!!!



>if not hit at the top - "real life" 15cm can knock out a Tiger.

I don't believe that at all with 150mm HE shell !!!!!!!!!
Only with 150mm AP or APCR or HEAT !!!!!!!!!!!


>I'm just curious.

>Any case, set the Artillery vs. Armor to 50% and see if it looks better.

I don't like to do this !

Leo.

(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 3
- 2/24/2003 5:58:15 PM   
Paska Taikuri

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/11/2002
From: Turku, Finland
Status: offline 		I don't think that penetration is really a problem regarding these big guns. I talked to a guy who has been in the Finnish Cadet School (sort of a Finnish West Point) and he once observed direct-fire trials with 122mm and 155mm field guns against old T-55 tanks.

A shot from a 155mm gun to the side of the turret took the turret clean off. Now, this was at a pretty short range but one might imagine what one of those shells does when landing atop a Pz-IV.

(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 4
- 2/24/2003 7:11:02 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Think you have a point there, Paska. I guess that's what I was trying to say. 15 cm shells have so much of both kinetic energy and sheer explosive power that AP doesn't matter much.

I'm convinced that firing a 150mm over "open sights" at a tank, you're likely to crack it open unless you hit the front, perhaps. The tough part is to hit in the first place... they don't have much of direct fire sights. :p

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Post #: 5
- 2/24/2003 7:47:04 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Another thing to consider..there is a T-54 turret in Parola armour museum which has quite a few holes in it...it's been shot at with various AT weapons for display purposes. For example, a 57mm gun used in ZSU-57 AA tank managed to penetrate the rear turret.
However 100mm HE round fired from another T-54/55 only managed to dent the turret. (Hit the rear turret)

Point is, a HE round fired from a tank gun or AT-gun is somewhat different case than HE round fired from arty piece. Arty round may well be more massive and contain more explosive than tank gun round even when the calibre is same.

Voriax

ps. too bad Lorrin doesn't visit these forums any more, he could most likely solve this issue...

_____________________________

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Post #: 6
Reply - 2/25/2003 4:18:45 PM   
Gavris Narcis

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/19/2000
Status: offline 		Think you have a point there, Paska. I guess that's what I was trying to say. 15 cm shells have so much of both kinetic energy and sheer explosive power that AP doesn't matter much.


>It seems you don't understand some principles of ww2/generic >ammo:
it is useless the kinetic energy for the HE SHELLS !!!!!!!!!!! Only for the AP/APCR/HEAT ammo the kinetic energy is important. I read many books/infos and the result is that: the HE shells were manufactured ONLY for antiinfantry pourposes (without a few rare ocasions for special missions), and this means a lot of explosives and a case made from good pellets material. The HE shell explode at the first impact with the target without time for penetration, exclude the situation of time-fused HE projectiles which were manufactured in rare ocasions and only for aerial bombings in a special missions.........
Hence, for HE ammo the only important parameter is diameter, namely the quantity of explosive.



I'm convinced that firing a 150mm over "open sights" at a tank, you're likely to crack it open unless you hit the front, perhaps. The tough part is to hit in the first place... they don't have much of direct fire sights.

> Here we have a real challenge for the game: the 150mm HE >shell if hit the tank it didn't penetrate it at all (excepting the vulnerable location/suspension damaged-disabled/radio mast destroyed/crew stunned/etc), but other result had to be take in consideration which the game didn't simulate ! An 150mm HE shell which hit an armor at some locations, especially lower locations and even the ground near the armor could very easily cant it !!!!!!!!!!! Of course it had to be take in consideration the size of armor and the projectile caliber. I saw a Tiger upside down without any damage (only the tracks dismantled) which was cant by a naval shell (200mm HE shell) which hit the near area of the tank !
Here I supposed that the game could be improved ! Maybe a 7.2 version which I await very very much.
For what I sayed I think the whole HE values in the game OOB's are very wrong !


Leo.




]

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Post #: 7
Reply - 2/25/2003 4:20:06 PM   
Gavris Narcis

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/19/2000
Status: offline 		Another thing to consider..there is a T-54 turret in Parola armour museum which has quite a few holes in it...it's been shot at with various AT weapons for display purposes. For example, a 57mm gun used in ZSU-57 AA tank managed to penetrate the rear turret.
However 100mm HE round fired from another T-54/55 only managed to dent the turret. (Hit the rear turret)


>And what is the point here ? The 57mm ZSU-57 AA fire special HE shells >because it is a AA gun ! All AA gun have different HE antiaircraft
>ammo (especially timefused, etc) than the normal field antiinfantry >guns. That's sure ! Even the formulas for this situation changings !!!!


Point is, a HE round fired from a tank gun or AT-gun is somewhat different case than HE round fired from arty piece. Arty round may well be more massive and contain more explosive than tank gun round even when the calibre is same.

> No, point is that: tank gun, AT-gun, field gun, etc....have the same type HE shells. Only the AA guns have other HE type shells.


Leo.

P.S. Who is Lorrin ? Can be contacted ?



Voriax

ps. too bad Lorrin doesn't visit these forums any more, he could most likely solve this issue...

(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 8
- 2/25/2003 4:56:46 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Gavris, what _is_ certain that HE ammunition does vary depending of the gun used. For example, a tank gun HE shell is not really meant to be used against infantry, but against soft vehicles, mg/atg positions and like. Also the range where it's used is quite short. These all have effect to the basic design.

Arty shell on the other hand has to be designed for longer ranges, so flight ballistics have much greater importance than in tank gun ammo. Also it is quite common to use two different types of contact fuses in artillery shells, delayed and instant.

If you fire at bunkers, towns, installations and like you use the former fuse because thenthe round will penetrate into ground before detonating. Thus causing a larger crater and shockwave. If you fire at light buildings or troop concentrations you use sensitive, instant fuses. This causes the shell to explode the very moment it impacts..if you fire in the woods rounds may explode above ground when they hit tree branches. Result from this is that the fragments spread into larger area and also horizontally. Delayed fuse rounds spray most of their fragments upwards, causing relatively little damage to nearby units.

I wonder if you really realized what you wrote in previous posts...you claimed that a 57mm HE!!!! shell fired from AA gun penetrates turret because it's fired from AA gun and is timed round... Now did I mention 57mm HE round anywhere? I did not. What I didn't remember to mention that it fired AP shells.
If a HE round that has a timed fuse hits a tank turret, for example, the round will explode normally as such ammo usually has also a contact fuse (often bottom fused). If it lacks the contact fuse, then the round will shatter as the thin cast-iron wall these rounds have isn't strong enough to withstand the impact.

And finally, Lorrin is an ammunition expert that has written book(s) about what happens when armour is penetrated..he used to visit these forums but haven't seen any posts from him since a year ago or so..check the old postings in the hardware forum.

Voriax

ps. care to tell the source where you got those formulas? Parts of them look really, really strange, but it may be that they don't show properly in this forum.

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Post #: 9
reply - 2/25/2003 9:01:45 PM   
Gavris Narcis

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/19/2000
Status: offline 		Gavris, what _is_ certain that HE ammunition does vary depending of the gun used. For example, a tank gun HE shell is not really meant to be used against infantry


>Oh, no ! Here you're wrong. The HE shells, especially tank HE, were >always manufactured for antiinfantry pourposes. This is even the logic of battle !!! And for this, all have the same principle (of course, without the too rare ocasions of special mission pourposes)



Arty shell on the other hand has to be designed for longer ranges, so flight ballistics have much greater importance than in tank gun ammo.

> You don't understand the principles....



Also it is quite common to use two different types of contact fuses in artillery shells, delayed and instant.

>Yes. That's I point before !



I wonder if you really realized what you wrote in previous posts...you claimed that a 57mm HE!!!! shell fired from AA gun penetrates turret because it's fired from AA gun and is timed round... Now did I mention 57mm HE round anywhere? I did not. What I didn't remember to mention that it fired AP shells.

> I supposed. For AP is far more probably to penetrating the armor.


If a HE round that has a timed fuse hits a tank turret, for example, the round will explode normally as such ammo usually has also a contact fuse (often bottom fused).


>No, you are lackin' informations. For HE time-fused shells the penetration are increasead than for normal HE shell. Just like in formulas what I posted before.

If it lacks the contact fuse, then the round will shatter as the thin cast-iron wall these rounds have isn't strong enough to withstand the impact.

> Yes, it's true.



ps. care to tell the source where you got those formulas? Parts of them look really, really strange, but it may be that they don't show properly in this forum.

> This formulas/infos were gained from an excellent and the best source of informations on the WEB for armor penetration formulas of Mr. Nathan Okun. These were for naval pourposes but it applied even on other pourposes. Even the formulas used in game engine are naval formulas just it is wrote in game manual !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After I searched and learning almost all, I reached the point to see that I have right: all HE penetration values for HE shells in game were WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.warships1.com/W-Nathan/

Leo.

P.S. Attention, there are big stuff and even an excellent programs to calculate penetrations.

(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 10
- 2/25/2003 11:50:02 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Ah, I know that site.

Btw, we seem to have conflict in terms. You speak about timed fuses. When I see that term I think about a shell that has a fuse you can set to explode after a certain number of seconds, like normal large calibre AA shells had. Now I fail to see how such method of fusing increases penetration, if you know how pray tell.

However I think you actually mean the same fuse that I mean when I talk about delayed fuse. This has a pre-set delay of few tenths of a second. This does allow the round to penetrate bit deeper before erploding.

Voriax

Btw, have you survived the shock about Romanian river boats not being the strongest in WW2? ;)

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

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Post #: 11
- 2/26/2003 12:04:31 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		1) Please check the first formula. It doesn't seem right at all. (too many consecutive multiplications of numbers >=1)

2) You're flogging a dead horse, Leo. If you indeed are correct (which I doubt), what do you want to be done?

There's no more development to SP:WAW, and none of us outside Matrix has access to the source code. We can't do anything about it! All I'm saying is put down the calculator and play some. It's a game! :)

My $.02

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Post #: 12
reply - 2/26/2003 2:07:54 PM   
Gavris Narcis

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/19/2000
Status: offline 		Ah, I know that site.

Btw, we seem to have conflict in terms. You speak about timed fuses. When I see that term I think about a shell that has a fuse you can set to explode after a certain number of seconds, like normal large calibre AA shells had. Now I fail to see how such method of fusing increases penetration, if you know how pray tell.

>My time-fusez is ADF which means Auxiliary Detonating Fuze. Sorry for the confuzion. I mean that time-fuze is one and ADF is another. Even we can speak that the ADF is some sort of time-fuze.


However I think you actually mean the same fuse that I mean when I talk about delayed fuse.

>Yes.

This has a pre-set delay of few tenths of a second. This does allow the round to penetrate bit deeper before erploding.

>No, delay are of hundreds of a second. Because that, HE shell can't penetrate deep enough, unless the shell have a very great speed and on oblique impact (isn't the case for most ww2 HE guns !)

Btw, have you survived the shock about Romanian river boats not being the strongest in WW2?


> What kind of stupid response/humour is that ? If I tell this I tell not for the pleasure to condemn the game but to improve it !!!?


Leo.

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Post #: 13
reply - 2/26/2003 2:08:45 PM   
Gavris Narcis

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/19/2000
Status: offline 		) Please check the first formula. It doesn't seem right at all. (too many consecutive multiplications of numbers >=1)

>Yes, I checked many times and with many searching on Internet and I found it very very accurate. The best.
Example:
''(e.g., British post-World War I 6" (15.2 cm) HE used an impact nose fuze with a black powder booster and could penetrate intact up to about 1" (2.54 cm) of homogeneous armor at near-right-angles).''
this was the experiments and conclusions of scientists !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Which match very good my accurate calculations for 150mm HE shell which give almost 250% increased value for HE shell in the game !!!!!!!
For example the german 150mm SiG133 HE have 51 mm penetration value in game which make from an consacrated antiinfantry weapon a true antitank
ones, which is innacurate, unrealistic, absurd assumption !!!!!!!

2) You're flogging a dead horse, Leo. If you indeed are correct (which I doubt), what do you want to be done?

>Yes, I'm corect here, but we have the OOB's editor ! What a relief indeed !


There's no more development to SP:WAW, and none of us outside Matrix has access to the source code. We can't do anything about it! All I'm saying is put down the calculator and play some. It's a game!


>Very very bad. Many things must be improved in SP:WAW, for example in the category of shells (it is imperious necessarily to input the SAP projectile; means: SEMI Armor piercing, and others), and the possibility to the player to decide which ammo to use, etc, etc.
If not, the game will come down in front of others, especially SPWW2, which make good progression by the gamers comunity !!!! Until now, SPWAW is in front but if nothing get improved in a year it come down..
Badly......All I want is to have access to game code like SPWW2 gamers have at own, and I suring you that in 1-2 years the SPWAW will be irrecognizable. And I'm sure that some persons on this forum could persuade to make this a reality. Thousands of thanks to them if doing this.


Leo.



My $.02

> What means that ?

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Post #: 14
- 2/26/2003 5:05:13 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Well Gavris, just that I remembered our earlier discussion where you claimed that Romanian river flotilla was the most powerful river fleet during WW2, which it was not. However adding those boats to the OOB is fine. If you considered that stupid, then up yours.

And yep, the delay is couple hundreths of second indeed...that comes when you read/write while having a flu and being late up :)

Oh Belisarius, you'd better check those formulas from that web site. At least in my browser these forum posts don't show the formula correctly..several numbers are to be raised to xxx power but here they look like multiplications.

If I understood those formulas right, the number they give out is the maximum armour thickness where the shell still created a hole which diameter is *equal* to the shell calibre. Now is it not possible to achieve deeper penetration but with smaller hole???? Also the formulas seem to concentrate to the kinetic energy of the round/round fragments and ignores the blast effect. However I'll read them again when I feel bit better.

Also as these are originally calculations adapted to naval shells and naval armour, the armour plates are much more massive and larger in size than in tanks. When a 155mm Arty shell hits a tank turret that is, say, 40mm thick it may well be that it doesn't penetrate...but how does it help you if the turret front plate is ripped off?

Voriax

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Post #: 15
Re: reply - 2/26/2003 5:19:19 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gavris Narcis
[B])

>Very very bad. Many things must be improved in SP:WAW, for example in the category of shells (it is imperious necessarily to input the SAP projectile; means: SEMI Armor piercing, and others), and the possibility to the player to decide which ammo to use, etc, etc.
If not, the game will come down in front of others, especially SPWW2, which make good progression by the gamers comunity !!!! Until now, SPWAW is in front but if nothing get improved in a year it come down..
Badly......All I want is to have access to game code like SPWW2 gamers have at own, and I suring you that in 1-2 years the SPWAW will be irrecognizable. And I'm sure that some persons on this forum could persuade to make this a reality. Thousands of thanks to them if doing this.


Leo.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Few comments to this.

Why is SAP so important? This is basically a naval shell and thus has very little importance in SPWaW, which is infantry/tanks game. Also remember that there are 4 ammo types in game, AP/APCR/HEAT/HE. Adding a 5th type isn't that easy..and while we are at it, how about White Phosphorus ammo??
Of course there should be all AP ammo types, AP/APC/APCBC/APDS/APCR/HEAT and with or without explosive filler. And naturally different penetration formulas for all of them. And if your Aunt had balls, she'd be your Uncle.

It's been said many times by Matrix Games staff that there will be no player selectable ammo. Such tinkering foes outside the scope of the game and IMO, there is already enough possibilities for micromanagement.

Remember that Matrix Games has games in development that will replace SPWaW, and hopefully they will be better than SPWaW. This is the reason why SPWaW will pretty much stay at the current level. Copyright issues prevent the distribution of source code so you are out of luck in this aspect also. And I'm pretty certain that SPWW2 people won't give their code to everyone who asks, either.

Voriax

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Post #: 16
reply - 2/27/2003 1:30:06 PM   
Gavris Narcis

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/19/2000
Status: offline 		Well Gavris, just that I remembered our earlier discussion where you claimed that Romanian river flotilla was the most powerful river fleet during WW2, which it was not.

> It was. But I abandon the subject because the lack of knowledge of commentators. For a few years the romanian river flotilla was was the most powerful river fleet during WW2. Point.


However adding those boats to the OOB is fine. If you considered that stupid, then up yours.

>I consider this excellent because it can ''hurt'' anyway the game. Plus that give to the gamers to make another good/real scenarios....




And yep, the delay is couple hundreths of second indeed...that comes when you read/write while having a flu and being late up

> Yes, it is. But that haven't any penetration importance....


Oh Belisarius, you'd better check those formulas from that web site. At least in my browser these forum posts don't show the formula correctly..several numbers are to be raised to xxx power but here they look like multiplications.


> You're wrong..of course you can't be and you are not a impartial commentator.



If I understood those formulas right, the number they give out is the maximum armour thickness where the shell still created a hole which diameter is *equal* to the shell calibre. Now is it not possible to achieve deeper penetration but with smaller hole????

For HE shells no !


Also the formulas seem to concentrate to the kinetic energy of the round/round fragments and ignores the blast effect. However I'll read them again when I feel bit better.


> You're sure ? No, indeed no ! It seems you haven't idea of what it is sayed/wroted.....

Also as these are originally calculations adapted to naval shells and naval armour, the armour plates are much more massive and larger in size than in tanks.

> Another example of ignorance....I write very clearly that those formulas is a general (very good) one !!!


When a 155mm Arty shell hits a tank turret that is, say, 40mm thick it may well be that it doesn't penetrate...but how does it help you if the turret front plate is ripped off?

> Here you're right. These shell have a good chance to ripp off the turret. But this is a total different thing that a penetration.......
It must be introduced a new routine in that game to simulate the HE penetration shells.....because the present one is very innacurate.
Take a look onto a decent response which I received from a decent gamer:

> The capability of a HE round to cause damage (not necessary real
> penetration) to an armored vehicle does not have it's own routine. In terms of pure
> penetration, you're right, but all the effects of the blast are not accounted for
> in that.

Good answer. But for this it is obviously that the game MUST BE IMPROVED, or it will be a ''dead game''
in a few years, and in front of others, like SPWW2, for example (which is improved constantly).


> Just an example:
> An early war tank like a Pz IIIe would be put out of action by a 150mm round
> almost all the time. Maybe it does not suffer a pure penetration, but tracks
> maybe lost, optics shattered, crew stunned beyond recovery because the
> hatches were open, transmission broken out of the fundament and therefore useless,
> the turret gets dislocated...

Very, very true. That's the reality and all I want is that the game MUST SIMULATE THIS, no making tricks !


> A HE round of that size usually causes cracks, not penetrations...cracks do
> lead to total failure also in many cases...the game now has to find an
> equivalent for these effects with the given penetration formula...and that is what
> you see as the HE penetration...the results are much closer to real effects
> then they would be if you reduce it to the 25 or 30mm.

I don't agree here. All tricks here were very harmfull for game experiences/accuracy/reality/etc...

> The Germans frequently used 105mm howitzers with HE ammo to disable KV
> suspensions or make it otherwise useless because of multiple system failure...it
> worked pretty well :)

Yes, that's the point.

> So far as I can tell these values are the best we can use unless someone
> comes up with a whole new HE calculations that includes also blast and crack
> effects...but that would be coding :)

I await this times, when somebody take the game code and give it to the hundreds of ''thirsty''
gamers to make real routines. And I'm sure that could be done.


> The one thing you might have noticed in H2H is, that I reduced mortar
> penetrations...but that was due to the fact that these weapons cannot be used in
> direct fire in real life, but often were in the game...to prevent players from
> using them as cheap ammo busters, I downgraded them :)
>

Here, I tell you I'm not agreed with that. It's a mistake. All tricks reduce very much the accuracy and realism of the simulation, even these can improve in some sort the playability.......

Leo.

Thank you. can we have a chance to have the game code ? What we must doing to have it ?

(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 17
Re: HE values in game are all wrong ?! - 2/27/2003 6:02:10 PM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gavris Narcis
[B]Hi gamers,


Continuing my searching for penetration/ballistics shells formulas I discovered that all the values in the game for HE ammo were WRONG !!!!
Maybe I'm wrong myself, but I redone the calculation dozens of times and I receive the same result: IN GAME THE PENETRATION VALUES FOR HE SHELLS WERE AT LEAST 200% MORE THAN REAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a look:

>>>Restricting ourselves to instantaneous-nose-fuzed (not hardened for armor impact and with no special delay, which were options in a few special-purpose impact nose fuzes used in WWII), HE-booster (trinitrophenol or more powerful booster explosive; not black-powder), Large-Cavity HE/HC projectiles without an ADF (including time fuzes and VT fuzes, which will act as such fuzes on impact), we get from U.S. and German tests the HE Projectile Armor Penetration Formula (No ADF) for blowing a caliber-wide or larger hole in the plate:

[/B][/QUOTE]

The key point in your message seems to be that the formula is for projectiles that will blow a hole as large as the shell into the armor via kinetic energy. In effect you are asking the shell to act as AP. You are ignoring the fact that an explosive shell gets additional spalling effect on the interior armor due to the explosive charge. It doesn't have to penetrate fully to damage or destroy the tank.

If you were to apply the same formulas to specialized warheads like HESH you would get the result that they are useless as well, while in reality, a HESH warhead would crumple armor like tinfoil.

Destroying a vehicle with large he rounds can also include those cases where the round doesn't physically penetrate, it just has to turn the interior contents into scrambled jelly, which large he rounds do just fine. Or in other hits the vehicle is flipped over on its back which will also take a tank out of combat without putting any holes in the armor.
thanks, John.

(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 18
- 2/28/2003 7:51:19 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		> It was. But I abandon the subject because the lack of knowledge of commentators. For a few years the romanian river flotilla was was the most powerful river fleet during WW2. Point.


It is really refreshing to see that some people are either so thickheaded or so patriotic that they won't change their opinion when evidence to the contrary is given to them. I leave it up to other readers to decide which is the case in here. Just compare the Romanian river boats to the Soviet or Chinese river fleets during WW2 and form your opinion.


> You're wrong..of course you can't be and you are not a impartial commentator.

HUH? What clueless comment is this? What does impartiality has to do with the *fact* that the formula written on these forums does not show up correctly? Just open that naval website on another browser window and compare yourself. Latest Netscape version in use, if that matters.

> I write very clearly that those formulas is a general (very good) one !!!

Why I should care about your writings? That's why I requested the source. And I might quote from it:

quote:

The maximum STS plate thickness that will barely have a caliber-diameter hole blown in it by an instantaneously-nose-fuzed HE/HC projectile with a detonating filler is "Tphe."


Now *this* is that the formula gives out...'caliber diameter hole' is sought after. when the plate gets thicker, the hole gets smaller or vanishes..up to 20% thicker the plate will be dented & cracked. Even though you claimed otherwise in your previous post.

Also those people who don't feel like visiting the website may find this interesting:
quote:


The definition of "penetration" is not sharp in this case, since a hole is blown through the plate and the size of the hole varies from merely a crack at the bottom of a dent in heavier plates--which has obviously minimal effect--to a large hole of caliber diameter or greater in thinner plates--which obviously can have major effects in the space behind the plate.


And if you are so worried about how a non-supported game will carry on to future years go ahead and *write* a program that calculates and represents HE ammo effects correctly. You don't need SPWaW code for that. *IF* your code works *AND* it uses only those parameters already in the game, then offer your code to Matrix Games and ask if they can import that part into the main SPWaW code. Which is probably the easiest part.
If you put combat logging on you'll see many, if not all parameters the game uses in determining penetration.

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 19
- 2/28/2003 9:23:31 AM   
Hades

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Holy Crap!!! How do you guys find time to play between calulating PEN vaules and throwing insults???? Its a [B]GAME[/B] its allowed to have a few errors.
Here Ill donate my 0.02 cents to Gavris so he can buy a real arty piece and a real tank and plunk away at it, maybe be satified with the HE PEN results.:D

_____________________________

"History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave."
-Edmund Morris


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(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 20
- 2/28/2003 6:52:33 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hades
[B]Holy Crap!!! How do you guys find time to play between calulating PEN vaules and throwing insults???? Its a [B]GAME[/B] its allowed to have a few errors.
Here Ill donate my 0.02 cents to Gavris so he can buy a real arty piece and a real tank and plunk away at it, maybe be satified with the HE PEN results.:D [/B][/QUOTE]

Perhaps because the holy crusade types that find a thing they call truth and want all to conform to it make me see red.

You are right otherwise, and as this topic isn't going to change anything I'll indeed go and play some good scenarios.

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 21
reply - 3/1/2003 12:21:22 AM   
Gavris Narcis

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/19/2000
Status: offline 		[


It is really refreshing to see that some people are either so thickheaded or so patriotic that they won't change their opinion when evidence to the contrary is given to them. I leave it up to other readers to decide which is the case in here. Just compare the Romanian river boats to the Soviet or Chinese river fleets during WW2 and form your opinion.


> beatean the strong german army with huge casualties for both with only the patriotism. That's to be feared by all mondial imperialist powers.......



Why I should care about your writings? That's why I requested the source. And I might quote from it:

>

up to 20% thicker the plate will be dented & cracked. Even though you claimed otherwise in your previous post.

Yes, that's to be simulated in the game ! What it is wrong ? To wish a better routine/game ?

The definition of "penetration" is not sharp in this case, since a hole is blown through the plate and the size of the hole varies from merely a crack at the bottom of a dent in heavier plates--which has obviously minimal effect--to a large hole of caliber diameter or greater in thinner plates--which obviously can have major effects in the space behind the plate.

>

And if you are so worried about how a non-supported game will carry on to future years go ahead and *write* a program that calculates and represents HE ammo effects correctly. You don't need SPWaW code for that. *IF* your code works *AND* it uses only those parameters already in the game, then offer your code to Matrix Games and ask if they can import that part into the main SPWaW code. Which is probably the easiest part.

>< Excellent nonaplicable idea. Because everybody tell that Matrix will do not make this....Yes, I'm already to do this especially that's not such a big deal at all. But I have to know all the variables and notation of internal game code, to be easy for Matrix to introduce them. Or you have inferiority complex about other third country type software capacity. Well, just look to bulgarian/romanian/russian programm(crack/hack)ers......Huf !


If you put combat logging on you'll see many, if not all parameters the game uses in determining penetration.

>< Ii is imperious necessarily to know all, not some of them. It is why I insist to have an open source.



Leo.

(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 22
Just Curious - 3/1/2003 12:44:38 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Leo, is there anything about this game that you [I]do[/I] like? It seems you spend a great deal of time finding fault. JMHO. :rolleyes:

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 23
- 3/1/2003 2:57:42 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		HUGS TO ALL :) By Olga of course, Jess please show all who don't know Olga what they are missing

(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 24
- 3/1/2003 10:25:10 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		Er, so... what's the problem with having multiple RL results (eg, turning the insides to jelly OR blowing a hole through the turret) be represented by the same program message (eg, turret armour "penetrated," tank disabled)? Pen is just a measure of how effective the shell is against that thicknes of armour. Yeah, sure, technically it's how much it can penetrate, but the reality of the situation is that if you just open your mind a [I]tiny[/I] bit, you can see that "Penetration" handles more than just blowing holes--it also handles general effectiveness.

Would it be NICE to see "Tank Commander shorn off at the waist whilst unbuttoned due to nearby 150mm explosion," hell yeah! That would rock. But if you use this nice God-given thing called your imagination, then you can see that the 150mm shell "Penetrating" the turret could actually mean this. And since the only "upgrades" you'll be getting are Combat Leader and Matrix frankly has no reason to listen to some ranting and raving fan "demanding" that their hard work become open-source (which would lead to about six billion different versions of SPWAW cropping up, all but 10 of them being completely sucky, and Matrix getting complaints from the dumb gamers who play all of them and can't read the README's)...

Yeah, I don't see what the big deal is.

_____________________________



Newbies!!
Wild Bill's Tanks at Munda Mini-Campaign. The training campaign for comb

(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 25
- 3/1/2003 10:28:37 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		I still say Olga could take care of the problem

(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 26
Olga can do it! - 3/2/2003 7:42:17 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Yes. She seems quite capable. It's those big peasant hands of hers. :D

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to Gavris Narcis)
Post #: 27
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