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WitW upgrade to WitE - 10/26/2014 3:04:11 PM

HMSWarspite

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Having been reading the WitW thread, especially logistics, I cant wait for the upgrade to the East. If I understand it properly, it will address all the issues with 'pace' and scope of the USSR offensives (and Ge post 1941 for that matter), may reduce the need for first turn special rules, will address some of the gamey breakthrough tricks, and generally make for a more realistic game. May even give Russia a reason to forward defend (other than to play nicely!). Losing all that depot stock (or evacuating it, and using all the rail capacity to do so would certainly be an issue). Devil will be in the details (like rail capacities) but should be fixable.

Comments anyone?

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 10/26/2014 3:51:33 PM

loki100

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yes ... agree

also imposing a MP cost for a hex that has seen fighting (perhaps related to the intensity of that battle) should knock on the head some of the current tactics that defy any relationship to space and time.

plus putting the player into a more operational control over the air war has to be for the good.

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 10/26/2014 5:10:15 PM

mmarquo

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Case Blue very nicely imposes restrictions on movement through embatttled hexes; works very well.

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 10/26/2014 7:28:36 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Having been reading the WitW thread, especially logistics, I cant wait for the upgrade to the East. If I understand it properly, it will address all the issues with 'pace' and scope of the USSR offensives (and Ge post 1941 for that matter), may reduce the need for first turn special rules, will address some of the gamey breakthrough tricks, and generally make for a more realistic game. May even give Russia a reason to forward defend (other than to play nicely!). Losing all that depot stock (or evacuating it, and using all the rail capacity to do so would certainly be an issue). Devil will be in the details (like rail capacities) but should be fixable.

Comments anyone?

IIRC, that will have to wait for WiTE 2.

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 10/26/2014 7:40:47 PM

amatteucci

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I hope a 1943-1945 War in Europe will see the light before the annouced next titles.

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 10/26/2014 10:56:11 PM

cato12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amatteucci

I hope a 1943-1945 War in Europe will see the light before the annouced next titles.

which according to the roadmap will be in around 10 years, not long to wait.

on a side note, I remember reading that there will be some stuff ported over from witw.

does anyone know what that stuff will be and roughly when it will be ported?

< Message edited by cato12 -- 10/26/2014 11:58:37 PM >

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 10/27/2014 2:14:35 PM

amatteucci

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cato12

quote:

ORIGINAL: amatteucci

I hope a 1943-1945 War in Europe will see the light before the annouced next titles.

which according to the roadmap will be in around 10 years, not long to wait.

Yes, ten years could be the estimated development time for WiE 1939-1945. But this is exactly the reason for which I'm advocating a 1943-1945 War in Europe to be released before the future North-Africa and early-war iterations.
The engine is there, the map is there, the OoB research for the Eastern front is there.

quote:

on a side note, I remember reading that there will be some stuff ported over from witw.

does anyone know what that stuff will be and roughly when it will be ported?

Are you referring to a future WitE patch? My understanding is that WitE 2.0 will feature a total port of the WitW engine but non WitW features will be ported into WitE.

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 10/27/2014 3:07:13 PM

cato12

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Our next game will be War in the West 43-45 which will be the same scale as WitE and will include a more robust air game with the land campaigns and strategic bombing. After that we plan on War in the West 40 (which will include Norway, France, England and the Med, and add a new detailed naval system) and War in the West 41-42 which will focus on the Med. War in the West 43-45 will have campaigns that start in the summer of 43 and the summer of 44, as well as shorter scenarios. We have an alpha map for all of Europe (including the Soviet Union to east of the Urals), North Africa and the Middle East). We plan to use this map to eventually produce a WitE 2.0 which would fit in with the War in the West products and allow us to fill in a complete War in Europe. Of course, this will take many years.

According to that post there will be three games developed before wite2. considering its taken four years to make witw, ten years seems a very optimistic eta. there is obviously no guarantee it will ever made.

regarding ported witw features,

im pretty sure I read that although most of the features from witw wont be ported into wite some features will in a future patch. we can but hope.

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 10/27/2014 7:36:33 PM

HMSWarspite

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The only ones I would push in the port are the combat adds to the MP cost of a hex, and the depot/limited supply rail capacity one. The air war, improved amphib and tiled map can wait!

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 10/27/2014 10:39:10 PM

Peltonx

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ignorance is bliss

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Post #: 10

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 10/27/2014 11:22:15 PM

cato12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ignorance is bliss

could you be any more cryptic?

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Post #: 11

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 10/30/2014 11:25:29 PM

HMSWarspite

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cato12

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ignorance is bliss

could you be any more cryptic?

Maybe

;)

< Message edited by HMSWarspite -- 10/31/2014 12:26:07 AM >

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Post #: 12

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/20/2014 8:06:11 PM

amatteucci

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Now that WitW is out, is there more info about the possible ports to WitE?

I understand that, for a full reworked game that features the new map, the new air system the new logistical system etc. we shall, obviously, wait for WitE 2.0. Nonetheless, I was wondering whether the new ground combat improvements (in particular the increased MP cost for hexes in which a battle has been fought and the MP penalty for units engaged in defensive combat during the opponent's turn) might be included in a future patch for the current WitE game.

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Post #: 13

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/21/2014 2:50:09 PM

Numdydar

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Other than Morvael's fine work on keeping this game updated, development of any new features in WItE will require a new game, not a patch. So the current version of WitE will pretty much remain 'as is' for the foreseeable feature

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 12/21/2014 3:51:26 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/21/2014 3:10:57 PM

Denniss

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Implementing core features of WitW is hardly possible - by far too many changes in the code. Rather contrary we hope to get some new features of WitE 1.08 ported to WitW. Especially the split factory/unit upgrade for equipment is a must have over there.

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/21/2014 4:47:14 PM

vandorenp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

yes ... agree

also imposing a MP cost for a hex that has seen fighting (perhaps related to the intensity of that battle) should knock on the head some of the current tactics that defy any relationship to space and time.

I am all in for addressing this phenomena of the game. But I urge everyone to consider a realistic model has to have some chance of exceptional results increasingly possible as the units involved are more experienced. Remember for a moment LTC. Abrams run into Bastogne. His battalion secured a narrow passage just a few hundred meters wide for quite some distance. And in another US 4th Armored Division example, there is a 12th US Army Group Situation Map in the National Archives showing the US 4th AD 50 KM or more beyond US lines. In the East there are numerous occasions Peiper smashed through Russian positions, seemingly effortlessly, and maneuvered behind Russian lines leaving both German and Soviet units back at the front.

The hexes are 10 KM wide. That means the sides are 5.8 Km long. In rolling, wooded or rough terrain it would be very possible for mobile formations to pass through a hex, courtesy of a hole opened by assaulting infantry, before the fighting is over. (And perhaps returning the favor by disrupting the defense in the process)

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/21/2014 7:12:31 PM

morvael

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The problem is in the mechanics. No realtime (or impulses). Both sides moving separately, one moves the other one watches in stupor. Units on the same time disjointed in time. Additional MP to move through a hex with a battle site is not a completely good solution (though it helps a bit). This is most glaring in a situation where you use units starting their turn way back from the front to move to the front, attack, create a gap, through which you then move units starting their turn close to the front (to maximize depth of penetration). A few MP more per site won't help much. Actually (assuming the relationship where MP = time to spend) each unit moving through a hex with a battle site should be reduced to the same % of MP as the unit which attacked and conquered this hex had left after the battle. But it's an issue only because of using boardgame system of IGOYOUGO. Computer games should use WEGO systems (like V4V or the AGEOD's games) or realtime systems (like Command Ops). The increase in realism in these games is immense. But they are harder to play (no total control, which some dislike) and (in case of real-time games without "active pause") become a bit arcade experience. I do agree one hex in WitE scale should be fully enough to create a corridor through which mobile units could move to exploit (no ZOC with friendly units in hex).

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/21/2014 8:48:51 PM

Tejszd

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The Atomic V4V (and later World At War) games were great. By making sides live with their orders you definitely were surprised both positively; catching a unit moving in rail/strategic mode, or negatively; opening a hole that you can not exploit....

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/21/2014 10:18:08 PM

amatteucci

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As I already said here before, I agree that, all other things being equal, WEGO is the best solution for a wargame because IGOUGO is only one of the many leftovers from the old glorious boardgame era. Many rules in a boardgame are the simple reflection of the fact that there are only a couple humans that have to make calculations, take notes and push counters. So, they are not the best solution per se, but are the best solution, given these constraints.

Thus, ideally, a computer wargame should do away with all this stuff, like fixed counters, step losses, hexes, IGOUGO, etc. The problem is that the computer is not so smart, so when you require the AI to do something for you, you cannot assume it will do any good, unless it's a trivial task.

Simplyfing my argument, I do think that, there's no way, having weekly turns, to have a viable and realistic WEGO implemented in WitE. In WitP/AE it's another story, with daily turns and land units crawling around in difficult terrain you'll rarely have a land unit move a single hex in a day.

But there's no way the AI could intelligently move all the units of a Panzerkorps during a week long deep penetration into Belorussia. You couldn't simply say to your units go from here to there and expect anything good. The performance of the human player would be worse that the current AI performance in the current IGOUGO incarnation of WitE. A very bad thing.

A possible solution would be to plot the movement for every single hex, including alternate routes, pauses, coordination tips, and a sort of SOP dialog (� la TacOps), that could be changed for every unit in every hex. But, even putting aside programming issues, it would be a nightmare in actual play, even for the most dedicated micromanagers. It would make a PBEM campaign game virtually impossible.

Thus, considering that, in this series, one week turns and IGOUGO will remain, I think that the only thing to do is to minimize the inherent shortcomings of the system, and, in this respect, I think that WitW is a giant leap forward.
Therefore, the more new features that can be retrofitted to WitE, the better.

< Message edited by amatteucci -- 12/21/2014 11:22:08 PM >

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/22/2014 3:39:10 AM

Numdydar

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TOAW III has the best solution to this that I have seen. In simple terms it uses a percentage of time across the entire side. So if you move and attack too much with AGC for example, then there is less time for AGN and AGS to do their attacks. Then once you run out of your time, the turn ends. So it is entirely possible that some units will not move and attack at all.

It works really well to simulate the time and space issue of combat and movement.

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/22/2014 8:49:28 AM

amatteucci

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TOAW III system might be a solution but I see two problems with that. The first is that it, probably, requires a so deep reworking of the game engine that it could not be realistically considered, even for WitE 2.0. The second is that, given the sheer scale of the game, it would increase micromanagement too much.

Actually, I will gladly welcome a 1.09 patch featuring this system, but I doubt that it will ever happen. In my opinion just having the two aforementioned WitW features retrofitted to WitE will be a bargain for us players but I'm not sure it will happen either.

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/22/2014 3:15:04 PM

Numdydar

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Well there is a Directive 21 TOAW III scenario that covers the entire WF campaign. At the regiment level no less

. And the system in TOAW seems to handle the scale pretty well based on my experience playing it

So I see no reason it would not work at a larger divisional scale.

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/22/2014 3:56:44 PM

amatteucci

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Well, as I said, I'll gladly welcome a 1.09 patch featuring a system � la TOAW.

I didn't want to convey the impression that the level of micromanagement will be "unbearable" in absolute terms, just that it will increase sufficiently to put WitE into another category of complexity (more similar to WitP or some TOAW monstre scenarios).
Something that, if I'm not mistaken, isn't considered viable by Matrix/2by3.

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/22/2014 4:19:20 PM

tombo

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...if the game is IGOUGO approach like WiTE/WiTW and not WEGO, if the combat results/victory, etc. continue to provide realistic results, maybe it doesn't matter. Do WiTE & WiTW provide the correct results?

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/22/2014 5:05:33 PM

amatteucci

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Well, although the ground combat model is not perfect (but which one is?), I think that it generates realistic results, on the average.
For example: Germany suffered 9503 KIA, 2995 MIA, 30482 WIA in June 1941 on the Eastern front. I ran a computer vs. computer GC game in WitE 1.08 and got, for the same time period, about 9000 KIA, 200 POW 29000 WIA for the Axis. A pretty good match, save for the few hundred POWs that cannot account for the actual 3k MIA.

On the Soviet side, I have no montly casualties reports, but averaging the actual casualties suffered in the third quarter of 1941, one comes up with the following figures: 39k KIA, 153k MIA, 60k WIA in June 1941. The simulation gave the following results: 40k KIA, 256k POW, 147k WIA. With the exception of the KIAs, it seems that Soviet losses might be overestimated but one has also to consider that the refrence figures are averages and that in the first weeks of combat, actual casualties (especially POWs) might also have been greater than average.

Generally speaking, I think that the single "tactical" combats in WitE do provide realistic results (maybe attacker losses should be a little higher) but what risk to produce snowballing effects are game mechanics that make impossible for the Soviet player to play a forward defense and survuve the Barbarossa onslaught. This issue has been debated ad nauseam and, judging from the new features of WitW, I think that the developers identified the most glaring problems and corrected them.

Now, I am sure that WitE is the best Eastern Front game to date and I had many hours of enjoyment playing it. Nonetheless I can't wait to see the new game egnine features implemented in WitE and I hope that something could be ported in the current engine before having to wait for WitE 2.0. I'd like to be able to play against a competent German player and not be compelled to do a Sir Robin just to barely survive 1941.

BTW, does anybody know if someone managed to make an alt GC41 scenario with Soviet replacement levels more in line with historical figures?

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/23/2014 2:48:03 AM

Reiryc

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No sense in reinventing the wheel.

Just go with what this game was based on -- War in Russia.

It had wego.

From the manual:

COMBAT
After both players have completed their
Orders Phase, all plotted moves and battles
are performed during the Execution Phase.
Combat is divided into five segments or
pulses. All plots and combat occurring in a
pulse are resolved for all units before
proceeding to the next pulse. Readiness and
unit losses for movement and combat are
calculated separately during each pulse.

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/23/2014 7:21:59 AM

amatteucci

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

No sense in reinventing the wheel.

Just go with what this game was based on -- War in Russia.

It had wego.

WiR has a totally different ground scale and unit density and it's this factor that made WEGO a viable solution.
Just as one day turns (and the generally broken terrain) made it possible for WitP.

Don't get me wrong, I already stated that WEGO is the most realistic turn resolution system for a wargame and I'd gladly pay $200 for a WEGO WitE.
But I don't think that it is possible to easily implement WEGO with both 10 miles hexes and weekly turns. Just think of what a player has to think when moving a 50MP Panzerdivision during a week long turn.
Will the AI be able to routinely do something comparable, save for the most simple situations? I doubt this.

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/23/2014 2:54:47 PM

swkuh

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At this time, think anything beyond fixing what isn't working should be put off for WitE 2.0. Changing the intentions & methods of the combat, supply, mobility, etc. engines are, IMHO, for the future. WitE 2.0 is a long time away as WitW obviously will be serviced first.

Hmmm... if I knew of a great team of programmers that would work for peanuts, I'd hire them and magically fix everything at once. But would anyone buy the game I'd produce?

Thanks to Morvael & others for attention given as needed.

BTW, is there a wish list thread for WitE 2.0?

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/24/2014 10:07:31 PM

morvael

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For peanuts no, but if you'll send me $1M, I can quit my day job, and for the next 30 years churn out wargames for you

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RE: WitW upgrade to WitE - 12/24/2014 10:42:47 PM

Aurelian

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