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wall of steel suggestion - 8/31/2014 2:58:21 PM   
Northern Star


Posts: 1881
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline 		Any ideas about how to break this wall of steel without losing most of my tanks due to 1:1=2:1?
Let me know




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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 8/31/2014 3:42:35 PM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
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Status: offline 		sure, I'll bite. Three entire Pz corps in the three hexes SE of Vitebsk, the rest of the pocket (for those two big stacks in the landbridge) closed with infantry. You should knock that stack west of the upper Dnepr out of the way first. Make sure you got the MPs to pull it off, well duh!

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 8/31/2014 8:14:36 PM   
Northern Star


Posts: 1881
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline 		Unfortunately I don't have enough mp for this hex... But I have some mp for a small advance along the river north of Vitebsk to reach the hex in which the Dvina becomes a minor river... What do you think?

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 8/31/2014 10:24:06 PM   
charlie0311

 

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Status: offline 		probably are going to find some undetected units west of that HQ. What I proposed would take three turns, two to form the pocket and one to reduce it, but can't tell for sure from what I can see. Besides your opponent may well maneuver to prevent encirclement.

There's no rush, your job is to kill Russians, get the infantry forward and if you can't get "safe" encirclements just hit targets of opportunity as hard as you can, 5/1 plus.

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 8/31/2014 11:14:37 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Northern Star

Any ideas about how to break this wall of steel without losing most of my tanks due to 1:1=2:1?
Let me know





Yes stop wasting your time playing .15

1.08 nerfed the SHC I win bottun, not sure why people have wasted 10secs playing a game that gives one side an I win botton.

Middle Earth = 1v1=2v1


< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/1/2014 12:16:25 AM >

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 9/1/2014 12:27:23 AM   
charlie0311

 

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Status: offline 		Pelton is right, as usual, mostly I think. Now if he could spell "button".

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 9/1/2014 1:50:45 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		With the imminent release of 1.08 I don't know why anyone would want to start a new game till then.

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 9/1/2014 3:31:22 AM   
M60A3TTS


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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 9/1/2014 6:24:13 AM   
charlie0311

 

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Status: offline 		Love doesn't need reasons...

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 9/1/2014 6:50:06 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
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Status: offline 		A puzzle is a puzzle...many miss this point :-)


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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 9/1/2014 7:12:26 PM   
Northern Star


Posts: 1881
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Status: offline 		It's a matter of honor for me. I'm playing with one of the best players of the forum Road to Moscow and I surrendered previously a game because I played very badly (I stopped playing wite for 2 years...)
But I am still a wite alpha tester and I was considered one of the best German players during testing before the release... So even if the rules are in favour of my opponent now I need to find out quickly a good strategy, regain the lost time and return to be one of the most evil German players of the wite forum :)

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 9/2/2014 1:58:58 PM   
swkuh

 

Posts: 1034
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Status: offline 		Think there's no surprises here. This echoes charlie0311's suggestion: infantry north of Vitebsk, panzer ball up the center, and freeze (up to the river line) the southern sections with infantry. Then play for encirclements to bag as much as can be, opposed to quick capture of Smolensk. The more Soviet defends forward, the more risk of encirclements. Play for the big one.

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Post #: 12
RE: wall of steel suggestion - 9/2/2014 2:58:11 PM   
Hyacinth

 

Posts: 83
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Status: offline 		My amateur opinion is that bigger the cost the bigger the prize has to be, I would try to create a massive pocket where infantry behind Dvina is the first jaw and at two whole panzer groups swinging from somewhere more south and east of Smolenks is the other.

No idea again if possible.

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 9/2/2014 4:40:44 PM   
Northern Star


Posts: 1881
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Status: offline 		I've just finished the turn... This was the final position for infantry as the units came only after clearing the pockets. About the mobile units they stayed a bit far from the enemy lines because I want to avoid Saper's deliberate attacks...
I can't write you more for now otherwise he will know everything, so I will let you know what happened after Saper did his turn. He is usually very quick so I will let you know soon

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 9/2/2014 5:01:54 PM   
Hyacinth

 

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Status: offline 		One thing you should be able to do is to pound those stacks from the air with a lot less losses than the games gives at the moment.

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 9/3/2014 12:01:32 PM   
Northern Star


Posts: 1881
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline 		I received Saper's turn... now there are stacks also at the west side of the Dnepr. I think the one with fort level 2 that has three hexes west my stack 33-33 can be retreated.
The other thing to do at the moment is to put the infantry north of Vitebsk and other infantry units west of the Dnepr to avoid counterattacks and prepare an attack on Mogilev.

I don't know if to attack now the stack I showed you before and then wait for infantry to catch up and attack in the next turn or if to advance only with the infantry and then wait another turn...

He will have many other units unfrozen in this turn so he will be able to reinforce again the wall of steel if I decide to wait again.

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 9/3/2014 12:02:11 PM   
Northern Star


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Status: offline 		Vitebsk




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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 9/3/2014 12:02:42 PM   
Northern Star


Posts: 1881
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Status: offline 		Mogilev




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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 10/23/2014 7:23:39 AM   
Gabriel B.

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Northern Star

Any ideas about how to break this wall of steel without losing most of my tanks due to 1:1=2:1?
Let me know


first, that is not a wall.

In turn 3 your infantry should relive the panzers , alow panzer HQ to build up , and launch a combined asault in turn 4.

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 10/23/2014 10:39:20 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
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Status: offline 		1.08

walls by both sides are allot harder to form, easyer to drop and they are not as deep

< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/23/2014 11:39:40 PM >

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 10/24/2014 7:51:36 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Northern Star

Vitebsk



It's turn 4, and you have played a pretty typical advance to the land bridge. Infantry just cannot be there by Turn 4, and your tanks aren't going to have enough fuel to conduct deliberate attacks nor to maneuver. So you have no offensive options that accomplish much that is either strategically useful, nor do you have any options that are tactically useful. Not in this theater.

At this point, you maximize your gain at the operational level, with actions such as these:
Ensure two army groups have the ability to fly fuel to the panzers (normally priority is given to Army Groups North and South, not Center here, further restricting expected movement rates in this army group's area.
Maximize your infantry movement - do not waste time trying to convert hexes.
Ensure you have solid rail routes of advance, particularly along the Daugava to Vitebsk. It is critical to run your Army Group Center railroad along the Daugava (using the faster Baltic conversion rate to accelerate the distances you can convert per turn).
Streamline the allocation of aircraft to airbases.
Replace the crap commanders that saddle Army Group Center.

Others have said "Wait for 1.08" and you also mentioned you'd retired for two years. There are some strategies you appear to be using that don't mesh with what I understand (perhaps incorrectly) to be 'standard' strategies, like allocating a panzer corps from AGC to AGS, and focusing more panzers to the capture of Pskov. But I'm not a grizzled veteran any more myself, so maybe you are more on to the current trends than I.

In general, I find the way your units are spread about to be operationally inefficient (at least in reaching this point) but I don't know what combats you were required to fight in your approach to the land bridge.

Going forward, part of your goal is to simply win combats and erode Soviet morale. When I was a hard-core player, I kept a turn-by-turn spread sheet of each soviet division that was attacked so that I had a turn-by-turn grasp of the division's morale attrition (along with tracking how many artillery pieces were involved on the Soviet side, which gives you an idea where he's concentrating good units and SUs). I'll do that again when 1.08 comes out, because managing German morale is the sine quo non of victory (and I'm sure will be likewise in 1.08).

Just ensure you win the combats that you do have.
It is better not to move an HQ than to move it just a little. Same for panzer units.

Maintaining efficiency in 1941 is part and parcel of maintaining momentum.

My two cents, anyway.

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 10/24/2014 2:05:45 PM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		As Helio states it is turn 4. The infantry is already in the front line. So move the infantry forward. You can attempt to use HQ Build Ups (HQBUs) on some of the Panzer Corps so their supply situation will improve dramatically. If you cannot do HQBUs, your panzer forces will still do a good recovery if you leave them in place.

Essentially you are in an offensive 'pause' turn. This pretty much happens on Turn 3 and/or 4 during the game for the Axis. Use the turn to bring the infantry, air groups, and rail heads closer to the front and prepare for an infantry assault next turn that will allow your panzer forces to exploit weaknesses in the Soviet front lines.

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 10/24/2014 7:36:32 PM   
Northern Star


Posts: 1881
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline 		Unfortunately I didn't manage to do HQBU in the next turns... Now it's turn 9, here is the situation (the turn is still not finished, I have still to close the rings...


< Message edited by Northern Star -- 10/24/2014 8:52:49 PM >

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 10/24/2014 7:38:34 PM   
Northern Star


Posts: 1881
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Status: offline 		I want to encircle at least 14 divisions...




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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 10/24/2014 7:40:09 PM   
Northern Star


Posts: 1881
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline 		In the past turns I destroyed 15 divisions, but it's still not enough...

I can do maybe some HQBU, do you have any ideas about how to destroy this wall of steel near Smolensk?
My priority has always been to destroy the army than to take the cities...


< Message edited by Northern Star -- 10/24/2014 8:51:48 PM >

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 10/24/2014 7:59:10 PM   
Disgruntled Veteran


Posts: 615
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Northern Star

In the past turns I destroyed 15 divisions, but it's still not enough...

I can do maybe some HQBU, do you have any ideas about how to destroy this wall of steel near Smolensk?
My priority has always been to destroy the army than to take the cities...



The best advice I can give is to have a schwerpunkt and press it hard. IMO this scenario is already lost and was lost after turn 2. It takes a lot of practice but a concentrated thrust through the clear gate of Smolensk is unstoppable, and once you flank the Soviet line..they have to either retreat or be encircled. That's not a lot of details but I think its better if the player develops these by themselves.

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 10/24/2014 8:40:10 PM   
Northern Star


Posts: 1881
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline 		It's the first game after 2 years and things changed a lot, maybe because of 1:1=2:1 rule. With the old rules the Soviets used to make many lines of defence,and counterattacks were much harder. With this rule, Saper has almost nothing behind this wall... And his counterattacks are successful 99% of times. I can't advance too far when I know in the Soviet turn I will be forced to retreat with many losses... So I concentrated panzers and infantry and I went slowly, trying to encircle as many units ad possible.
This game has been useful only for practice imo. We agreed to start a Road to Leningrad without 1:1 rule :) And we'll see what is more useful to win, Saper's crazy tactics or the old times tricks of an evil witch


< Message edited by Northern Star -- 10/24/2014 9:54:31 PM >

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RE: wall of steel suggestion - 10/24/2014 10:32:41 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Northern Star

It's the first game after 2 years and things changed a lot, maybe because of 1:1=2:1 rule. With the old rules the Soviets used to make many lines of defence,and counterattacks were much harder. With this rule, Saper has almost nothing behind this wall... And his counterattacks are successful 99% of times. I can't advance too far when I know in the Soviet turn I will be forced to retreat with many losses... So I concentrated panzers and infantry and I went slowly, trying to encircle as many units ad possible.
This game has been useful only for practice imo. We agreed to start a Road to Leningrad without 1:1 rule :) And we'll see what is more useful to win, Saper's crazy tactics or the old times tricks of an evil witch



I cannot give you an optimistic way forward.
The game went through several phases of strategy adaptation and patches to deal with those strategies that were probably too exploitive. On the one hand, the German side for a time was able to fly so much fuel to the front (particularly to motorized rifle divisions whose fuel needs were far lower than a panzer division) and essentially outrun any defense the Soviet tried to mount. Then for a time the winter rules were exploited by both sides to the point that the game received a major patch to deal with that problem. Subsequent to that, players realized essentially that the Soviet side could not lose playing the way your opponent is playing you.

Because morale is everything to combat performance, and because the Soviets have a free +1 odds shift in this time period, it's very easy for the Soviet to gang-up and counter-attack single German units, leveraging his morale up and German morale down (i.e. making the change in morale over time that is hard-coded into the National Morale settings accelerate much much faster for each side - Soviet up, German down).

To counter this, Germany can't leave units alone, which means the entire war machine slows down. As others have said elsewhere, discounting an outright German win (generally agreed upon as highly improbable against an average or better Soviet player) Germany's path to late-war victory is to protect morale and establish as much distance between the Soviet start point and start time back as far as possible. I believe a lot of people feel that until the 1.08 patch arrives, with the option to take away that +1 odds shift (and a host of other important changes), it is so easy for the Soviet side to leverage that strategy that new games aren't worth starting.

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Post #: 28
RE: wall of steel suggestion - 10/28/2014 11:59:41 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
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Status: offline 		I agree with Heli here. I have been waiting for 1.08 to start my new games as the old rule set has things pretty much locked in to a certain ebb and flow.

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Post #: 29
RE: wall of steel suggestion - 10/29/2014 12:49:34 PM   
Gabriel B.

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04


quote:

ORIGINAL: Northern Star

Vitebsk



It's turn 4, and you have played a pretty typical advance to the land bridge. Infantry just cannot be there by Turn 4, and your tanks aren't going to have enough fuel to conduct deliberate attacks nor to maneuver. .


Vitebsk is in reach of german infantry by turn 4.

Typical advance is Lida , turn 1.
Minsk ,turn 2.
landbridge turn 3.


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