Kamikaze make up

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Kamikaze make up

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Kamikaze make up

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Kamikaze make up - 11/1/2014 9:56:50 PM

greg_slith

Posts: 490
Joined: 9/14/2004
Status: offline

My forces are getting their first taste of Kamikaze attacks and it got me thinking. The given image in most people's mind is of a single determined pilot in his fighter going hell-bent-for-leather through flak and fighters to crash himself into an Allied ship. I'm cool with that. What I want to know is: what about multi-crewed planes? Did the R/T guy go along when a Val went Kami? How about the crews of bigger planes like Ms Betty or Emily? I mean, that's a crew of 10 for Pete's sake. Did they generally all volunteer? Just enough to man defensive guns? Just the pilot? I don't recall every reading anything about non-pilot aircrew. Talk about peer pressure if the 9 other guys in your crew wanted to do the whole Divine Wind thing and you didn't.

Post #: 1

RE: Kamikaze make up - 11/2/2014 6:21:24 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

I believe most kamikazes were single engine planes. In most cases there was nobody else on board. After the surrender was announced admiral Ugaki who was head of the IJN kamikazes allowed one more attack and he rode in the back seat of a Judy. Nobody knows exactly what happened to him.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to greg_slith)

Post #: 2

RE: Kamikaze make up - 11/2/2014 8:20:24 AM

Rising-Sun

Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

My forces are getting their first taste of Kamikaze attacks and it got me thinking. The given image in most people's mind is of a single determined pilot in his fighter going hell-bent-for-leather through flak and fighters to crash himself into an Allied ship. I'm cool with that. What I want to know is: what about multi-crewed planes? Did the R/T guy go along when a Val went Kami? How about the crews of bigger planes like Ms Betty or Emily? I mean, that's a crew of 10 for Pete's sake. Did they generally all volunteer? Just enough to man defensive guns? Just the pilot? I don't recall every reading anything about non-pilot aircrew. Talk about peer pressure if the 9 other guys in your crew wanted to do the whole Divine Wind thing and you didn't.

Oh yeah, they will if they have a chance, esp a juicy target like a carrier. If they have order to or the pilot and the rest of the crew agreed to it, then they will if they don't get shot down.

_____________________________

(in reply to greg_slith)

Post #: 3

RE: Kamikaze make up - 11/2/2014 8:03:51 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

Most of what we have about kamikazes are from western sources. What exactly Japan was doing for kamikaze attacks is very confused from the Allied side as the Japanese regularly sent fighters and more conventional bombers along with attacks that included kamikazes. The fighters were there to try and help the kamikazes get through.

From the modeling world, some after market decal sets have been issued for the Special Attack Units. From what I have seen of those, all the aircraft depicted are single engine aircraft. Most were obsolete fighters, training planes, even float planes as well as carrier aircraft that were no longer needed. Aircraft fuel was at a premium at that point in the war and what multi-engine aircraft were flying were flown on other missions like launching Okhas, ASW, maritime search, or night fighters combating B-29s.. The goal was for the kamikazes to get through and multi-engine planes were both bigger targets as well as less maneuverable than single engine planes.

If twin engine planes were ever expended as kamikazes, I suspect it was very rare. Throughout the war sometimes pilots of fatally damaged planes decided to crash into the nearest Allied ship. There were probably a few instances of this happening in the late stages of the war which were chalked up as kamikazes by the Allies, but that was not the originally intended mission.

I see Osprey has a history of the kamikazes and the aircraft they used out. Their books are usually pretty good for details on the types of equipment used.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Rising-Sun)

Post #: 4

RE: Kamikaze make up - 11/2/2014 11:12:52 AM

greg_slith

Posts: 490
Joined: 9/14/2004
Status: offline

So in AE, at least, the use of multi-engine/multi-crew aircraft is not "historical". I've had about a dozen ships hit so far and everyone has been by either a bomber (Betty, Helen, etc) or flying boat (Mavis or Emily). In fact, the only single engine planes I've seen make suicide attacks are some floatplanes.
I'm also thinking the damage these bigger planes cause isn't large enough. I had five APD's hit by Helens and only one sank. Now I know there is plenty of evidence of DD's getting smacked by several kami's and living to tell the tail but those were all single engine planes. I can live with it but it just feels off, if you know what I mean.

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 5

RE: Kamikaze make up - 11/2/2014 2:23:29 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Most of what we have about kamikazes are from western sources. What exactly Japan was doing for kamikaze attacks is very confused from the Allied side as the Japanese regularly sent fighters and more conventional bombers along with attacks that included kamikazes. The fighters were there to try and help the kamikazes get through.

From the modeling world, some after market decal sets have been issued for the Special Attack Units. From what I have seen of those, all the aircraft depicted are single engine aircraft. Most were obsolete fighters, training planes, even float planes as well as carrier aircraft that were no longer needed. Aircraft fuel was at a premium at that point in the war and what multi-engine aircraft were flying were flown on other missions like launching Okhas, ASW, maritime search, or night fighters combating B-29s.. The goal was for the kamikazes to get through and multi-engine planes were both bigger targets as well as less maneuverable than single engine planes.

If twin engine planes were ever expended as kamikazes, I suspect it was very rare. Throughout the war sometimes pilots of fatally damaged planes decided to crash into the nearest Allied ship. There were probably a few instances of this happening in the late stages of the war which were chalked up as kamikazes by the Allies, but that was not the originally intended mission.

I see Osprey has a history of the kamikazes and the aircraft they used out. Their books are usually pretty good for details on the types of equipment used.

Bill

In my last campaign, one of Viberpol's betty pilots decided to die for the emperor and hit the Alabama. Got a magazine explosion for his efforts. Well, you know the rest...

But it was a conventional bombing attack.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 6

RE: Kamikaze make up - 11/2/2014 3:17:51 PM

durnedwolf

Posts: 885
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: USA
Status: offline

Everything you wanted to know about kamikaze makeup...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trkzV-c4jdk

_____________________________

DW

I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

The great aim of education is not knowledge but action. - Herbert Spencer

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 7

RE: Kamikaze make up - 11/2/2014 3:19:23 PM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

There were of course those 2 squadrons of Betty's used to carry Okha....tried day and night...utter failures, all of an entire squadron shot down by F6f aircraft.
Osprey indicates they were fully crewed as they had to defend themselves..

Apparently a single American destroyer was the only allied warship sunk by the Okha manned bombs.

Another Betty project was to land hundreds of commandos, dressed in USAAF uniforms, to hit the Kwajalien B29 bases, and the Japanese planned to use a captured B 29 as part of the ruse.
Implementation of the projects,(2), were stopped by the first atomic bomb.

_____________________________

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 8

RE: Kamikaze make up - 11/2/2014 3:23:13 PM

Rising-Sun

Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline

Well single engine plane are pretty easy to control than two or four engines. Yes it is rare to see anything above single engine kamikaze, it also hard to shoot down bigger plane than a single engine. Load that plane with a lot of fuel and TnT would be nasty.

< Message edited by RisingSun -- 11/2/2014 4:24:21 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to m10bob)

Post #: 9

RE: Kamikaze make up - 11/2/2014 4:41:16 PM

Endy

Posts: 87
Joined: 2/6/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

Everything you wanted to know about kamikaze makeup...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trkzV-c4jdk

I see what you did there sir...

(in reply to durnedwolf)

Post #: 10

RE: Kamikaze make up - 11/2/2014 5:51:47 PM

greg_slith

Posts: 490
Joined: 9/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

Everything you wanted to know about kamikaze makeup...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trkzV-c4jdk

No wonder they chose to crash their planes

(in reply to durnedwolf)

Post #: 11

RE: Kamikaze make up - 11/2/2014 5:54:22 PM

durnedwolf

Posts: 885
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Endy

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

Everything you wanted to know about kamikaze makeup...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trkzV-c4jdk

I see what you did there sir...

Shhhhh - don't tell no one yet... Some of the passengers look well-heeled. If we bide our time just a wee bit longer we might be able to hijack this thread and make a mint. Just keep an eye on the back door and we'll split the loot 50-50.

_____________________________

(in reply to Endy)

Post #: 12

RE: Kamikaze make up - 11/2/2014 5:57:22 PM

durnedwolf

Posts: 885
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

Everything you wanted to know about kamikaze makeup...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trkzV-c4jdk

No wonder they chose to crash their planes

Yup - it's hard to put on makeup with those tiny little mirrors in the cockpit. If you're not paying attention you could fly right into a ship...

_____________________________

(in reply to greg_slith)

Post #: 13

RE: Kamikaze make up - 11/2/2014 6:28:10 PM

Rising-Sun

Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline

Here a good video of kamikazes in battle 360, pretty good setup they have there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJe4Ouw6F4E

< Message edited by RisingSun -- 11/2/2014 7:28:29 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to durnedwolf)

Post #: 14