RE: OT - Best WWII movie?

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RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/10/2014 11:03:39 AM

Extraneous

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Yesterday I watched "Courage Under Fire" again. I like a good laugh once and a while.

Courage Under Fire - 1996 staring Denzel Washington and Meg Ryan directed by Edward Zwick.

This movie is about a fictional first female helicopter pilot recommended for the Congressional Medal of Honor for valor in combat.

While the storyline is interesting a small detail was overlooked. The female helicopter pilot is a war criminal. She violates the Geneva Convention by flying an ARMED medavac helicopter and using it to attack ground troops.

quote:

Effects of Geneva Conventions on Medical Evacuation
The mounting of offensive weapons on dedicated medical evacuation vehicles and aircraft jeopardizes the protections afforded by the Geneva Conventions.

These offensive weapons can include, but are not limited to:
(1) Machine guns
(2) Grenade launchers
(3) Hand grenades
(4) Light antitank weapons

Medical personnel are only permitted to fire in their personal defense and for the protection of the wounded and sick in their charge against marauders and other persons violating the law of war.

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Post #: 91

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/10/2014 1:03:07 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Yesterday I watched "Courage Under Fire" again. I like a good laugh once and a while.

Courage Under Fire - 1996 staring Denzel Washington and Meg Ryan directed by Edward Zwick.

This movie is about a fictional first female helicopter pilot recommended for the Congressional Medal of Honor for valor in combat.

While the storyline is interesting a small detail was overlooked. The female helicopter pilot is a war criminal. She violates the Geneva Convention by flying an ARMED medavac helicopter and using it to attack ground troops.

quote:

Effects of Geneva Conventions on Medical Evacuation
The mounting of offensive weapons on dedicated medical evacuation vehicles and aircraft jeopardizes the protections afforded by the Geneva Conventions.

These offensive weapons can include, but are not limited to:
(1) Machine guns
(2) Grenade launchers
(3) Hand grenades
(4) Light antitank weapons

Medical personnel are only permitted to fire in their personal defense and for the protection of the wounded and sick in their charge against marauders and other persons violating the law of war.

warspite1

I always knew Meg Ryan was a wrong'un. Naughty girl!

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 92

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/10/2014 1:37:49 PM

Dabrion

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Watched "Fury".. did not really thrill me. If you like John Wayne style movies you will like it..

There is also a low budget Film this year, similar setting and story. "Saints and Soldiers: The Void" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1270114/
Similarly inaccurate and ahistorical, but enjoyed that one more.

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Post #: 93

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/10/2014 2:28:03 PM

brian brian

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Fury is still sinking in with me a little. I realized the American characters are in a dualistic plot situation with the German characters in the final main battle scene. For example, one character on each side uses the word "home", or a synonym for it, though the linkage to the GI using the concept is a little weak. But they are each fighting a "Last Stand"

I played a little of a solitaire WiF game last night. The tactical situation at the end of the movie illustrates something about war, that is applicable to WiF I have always thought. Sometimes in war, what you have to fight for is actually Time itself. The tank crew knew it could not prevail in it's situation � so Why? Because they could gain time for other soldiers in their army, and cost the enemy time. Which still begs the question for the fanatical Nazis - Why? Fighting for time until the Secret Weapons could come on-line and change the battlefield results is one of the answers as well.

I regularly see World in Flames players fail to grasp that concept. In each half of the game, each side is on the defensive. When on the defense, you have to risk military assets simply to cost the other side time. You are not likely to win that risk, i.e. you are going to lose those military assets. The question you constantly have to ask is whether the assets you risk are worth the time you gain, and whether those assets can be replaced. The Axis win quite handily when the Allies fold up shop too easily. "There was no way I could hold that hex, so I retreated." But of course in a game made of cardboard (or pixels) that calculus is completely different than when considering the lives of soldiers.

I would just add though that the more I think about it, the New Guy character in Fury can either be looked at as an unoriginal use of the same script device used in Saving Private Ryan, or more charitably, a small homage to it (both New Guys = typists). Ultimately though, both movies do a good job of exploring and illustrating the Why? for at least American GIs.

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Post #: 94

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/10/2014 4:35:38 PM

Neilster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I think all the thinking about 1945, Germany, and Why?, misses a certain point - sure there were fanatical Nazis, but they were a minority. That book "The End" did go a long way towards explaining how a minority could control the majority. But the perhaps unanswerable question, and the probably eternal focus on that minority will still be Why?

My answer is something that is still alive in the world today - the absolute power of propaganda to motivate human action. Hitler and Goebbels always claimed their opponents were guilty of the "Big Lie." Yet I think any rational person will still always ask Why, Why you Fools?

I thought it was a little unfortunate in that book that he didn't go a little deeper into any other comparisons to "Last Stand" societies, though he pointed out that there have indeed been very few examples of such in history. Perhaps a subject that could still be explored. Fury only scratched the surface, simply having the characters ask the "Why?" (and then not quite directly). Perhaps Fury could use a "Letters From Iwo Jima" companion piece, which, come to think of it, IS an exploration of this same topic.

There are several reasons the Germans kept fighting to the end, especially on the Eastern Front. Off the top of my head...

1. It was a totalitarian state and the Nazi hold lasted until their dying gasp. It was better to take your chances at the front than swinging from a lamp-post with a placard around your neck. The "Golden Pheasants" of the Nazi Party were always fanatical with everybody else's lives. They themselves usually got out of Dodge with the cash, gold and luxuries at the last minute.

2. German soldiers knew full well the rapacious nature of the Red Army and they were trying to protect their women. The Western and Italian Fronts were held in part to support the Eastern Front. Also, German propaganda had it that in defeat, everybody would be either killed or carted off to Siberia. There was a feeling that there was nothing to lose, so you might as well keep fighting. And they did, although after the crossing of the Rhine, there was only patchy resistance in the West, and a huge increase in surrenders. Many soldiers decided it was better to survive in a Wallie POW camp than be captured by the Russians or die for a lost cause.

3. There was a belief that somehow Hitler would pull it out of the fire. Whether wunderwaffen, Roosevelt's death, the Alliance falling apart or Adolf luring them into an elaborate trap. The idea that somehow it would all work out was common and persistent.

4. After 12 years of National Socialism, many people couldn't imagine any other kind of Deutschland. Additionally, the Western Allies advertised their plans to dismember Germany and Austria. More "nothing to lose".

I'm sure there are more but it's late. In general the German people were forced to transition very quickly from thinking they had this thing won in the Autumn of 1942 to a grim total war in very short order. The propaganda tried to cover up Stalingrad as best they could but it was impossible. After that the German people knew they were in a death match.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 95

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/10/2014 5:07:05 PM

brian brian

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Yes, the Doom of the Eastern Front hung over them all.

I also think the Nazis used one of the oldest, saddest routes to political power in human history. Got a problem in your life? Why, let's simply blame it on those Other people. In doing so, they somewhat fed people what they already want to hear. It's not Your fault or even Our fault, it's Theirs. Still quite common in the world today, perhaps always will be.

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Post #: 96

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/10/2014 6:39:08 PM

Centuur

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I mentioned once the diary my uncle has written. He wrote down things at the end of the war which gave some insight into this.

The political and economic situation of Germany (and Austria) between the two wars was the main reason why the common German soldier kept fighting against the Western Allies. What was there to lose? The peace treaty of WW I put both Germany and Austria into deep poverty which caused food shortages (hunger) in parts of both countries. Hyper inflations due to reparation payments, widespread unemployment and such things only made things worse.

The Western Allies had a the "roaring 20's". Germany and Austria were in deep poverty (to be seen as in third world countries nowadays) in those years. The depression made things even worse...

The Allied propaganda machine did nothing to promise the Germans and Austrians a better life if they would stop fighting. So why stop fighting?

It wasn't the love of the nazi regime, or even the nazi's political ideas which were the reason for this at all. It was the fact, that everything else was better, than again get to a situation where people are starving, prices go skyhigh (hyperinflation), no jobs and no prospect to a better way of life. Don't forget, in the late 1930 things were very good in the Reich if you look at it from an economic point of view...

So the average German soldier and citizen hoped (against better knowledge) for a miracle in the last months of the war. It was the believe of my uncle, that the Wallies didn't promise the Germans a better life after Hitler would be gone. They didn't, so the soldiers kept fighting, even if when they fought against the Wallies, they were sooner to surrender than if they fought the Russians. Allied propaganda said only one thing: "unconditional surrender". That was unacceptable for almost everyone in Germany, until it became clear that there wasn't anything left anymore...

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RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/11/2014 12:29:23 AM

brian brian

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A great perspective Peter, thanks. It helped me realize something not mentioned in that book "The End" at all, but the movie was leading me to thinking - there is a lot of hubris in that question "Why did they keep fighting?" And that is because the Americans in particular, when asking this question, can't understand the other side. The Americans were in the war for noble purposes - how could anyone oppose that? Couldn't the Germans see what was the right thing to do? The USA is always doing the right thing, right? Why don't they just quit fighting and sign up with Uncle Sam? Such hubris can be found in many other historical questions of the 20th century.

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RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/11/2014 5:24:08 PM

micheljq

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I did enjoy Fury a lot, especially the fight with the Tiger tank, the fight where the shermans tank attack a defensive line and you see the tracing bullets.

But the final fight is just so stupid and non-sense.

Michel.

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Post #: 99

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/11/2014 7:15:54 PM

captskillet

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Porkchop Hill.

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RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/11/2014 7:32:44 PM

Centuur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

A great perspective Peter, thanks. It helped me realize something not mentioned in that book "The End" at all, but the movie was leading me to thinking - there is a lot of hubris in that question "Why did they keep fighting?" And that is because the Americans in particular, when asking this question, can't understand the other side. The Americans were in the war for noble purposes - how could anyone oppose that? Couldn't the Germans see what was the right thing to do? The USA is always doing the right thing, right? Why don't they just quit fighting and sign up with Uncle Sam? Such hubris can be found in many other historical questions of the 20th century.

I wouldn't say that this did only happen in the 20th century. It is something of all ages. Look at the Crusades, the 100 year war or the 80 year war or at the Islamic State. All sides fight for what they think are "noble" causes...

I've concluded you can't fight a war for a noble cause. A war is always for the bounty you can get. Napoleon once stated: "You don't always get good soldiers for your gold, but good soldiers can always get you more gold". The Germans called it "Lebensraum" and the developed nations now call it our "interests"...

And there is something else to consider too... Ever thought of how history is put down in writing? Isn't the victor always the good guy on the long term? I've made a small study of the Neurenberg processes and at one time there was a German lawyer who stated some pretty nasty war crimes done by the allied forces of the three major participants (US, British and especially the Soviets) on his defense of his client. The court put him down at once, but his client was charged for being responsible for the exact same thing those Allied forces did. Those commanders were never tried, the German commander was send to prison for this. Strange behaviour, don't you think?

< Message edited by Centuur -- 11/11/2014 8:39:21 PM >

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Post #: 101

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/11/2014 10:25:30 PM

Dabrion

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Usually when the generations involved in a war are extinct, time is ripe for a scientifically sound study of events. So we are not quite there yet..

@Centuur: Are you saying life should be fair, but isn't?

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- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

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Post #: 102

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/12/2014 2:53:20 PM

Centuur

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That's about it. Life isn't fair, never has been, so don't pretend that it is...

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Post #: 103

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/12/2014 5:43:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

That's about it. Life isn't fair, never has been, so don't pretend that it is...

I will pretend if I want to centuur and you cant stop me so there,

you know whats not fair in life it is when the person who owns the football, and we wont let him play in the game he ends up taking his ball home, now that's unfair

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Post #: 104

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/12/2014 5:55:58 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

That's about it. Life isn't fair, never has been, so don't pretend that it is...

I will pretend if I want to centuur and you cant stop me so there, you know whats not fair in life it is when the person who owns the football, and we wont let him play in the game he ends up taking his ball home, now that's unfair

Bo

warspite1

No that is not unfair - you want to know what is really unfair?

I am not humungously rich, with film star looks and with the sexual appetite of a strutting rhino. Now that's a constant source of irritation....

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/12/2014 6:56:42 PM >

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RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/12/2014 7:05:36 PM

Centuur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

That's about it. Life isn't fair, never has been, so don't pretend that it is...

I will pretend if I want to centuur and you cant stop me so there, you know whats not fair in life it is when the person who owns the football, and we wont let him play in the game he ends up taking his ball home, now that's unfair

Bo

warspite1

No that is not unfair - you want to know what is really unfair?

I am not humungously rich, with film star looks and with the sexual appetite of a strutting rhino. Now that's a constant source of irritation....

+1. Now why didn't I win the lottery this month...

That's unfair too...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 11/12/2014 8:06:36 PM >

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Post #: 106

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/12/2014 8:06:57 PM

Dabrion

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Lotteries are literally unfair! Otoh you had fair chance not to do it ;)
Unlike buying MWiF (when I did) you are well informed about what you spend your money on, when buying a lottery ticket.

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- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

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Post #: 107

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/13/2014 1:20:05 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

Unlike buying MWiF (when I did) you are well informed about what you spend your money on, when buying a lottery ticket.

warspite1

Maybe you should seek a refund

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RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/13/2014 11:12:25 AM

joshuamnave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

Usually when the generations involved in a war are extinct, time is ripe for a scientifically sound study of events. So we are not quite there yet..

That process has been going on for WW II for 20ish years or so. When I was in college, there was a text published that was immediately branded as a revisionist pro German propaganda piece. The historian who wrote it (and you'll have to forgive me, I no longer remember the name of the book or the author) essentially argued that the traditional causal theory - ie.. WW 2 was an act of German aggression and the blame lies with Hitler - was incorrect. His thesis was that global stability is the result of every nation asserting their own national interests, in effect everyone pushing against everyone else creating a state of equilibrium. World War 2 was the result of the other European powers (and to a lesser extent, America) failing to assert their own interests thereby creating a void in international diplomacy. And we all know how nature abhors a vacuum.

That theory isn't nearly as controversial today as it was when I was in college.

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RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/13/2014 1:43:07 PM

brian brian

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A.J.P. Taylor "The Origins of the Second World War" ???

That description doesn't quite match, and that book came out in 1961. But it was the first to point that "Hitler did it" is a bit too simple.

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RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/13/2014 1:51:13 PM

joshuamnave

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No, but the book I'm remembering cited Taylor more than a few times.

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RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/13/2014 2:45:58 PM

CanInf

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have not seen it but apparently this Finnish Film about the Winter War is quite good... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098437/

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RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/13/2014 3:02:43 PM

danlongman

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I just wonder why they didn't make a movie about this engagement:http://wikimapia.org/10511899/Parker-s-Crossroads-Baraque-de-Fraiture
Fury clearly seems to be partly based upon it. It is every bit as good a story and more importantly for me it really happened.
It does real.

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RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/13/2014 7:36:42 PM

paulderynck

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I wouldn't classify it as the best but The Flowers of War was quite good. And after watching it I had to research and verify that the Chinese Nationalists were indeed equipped with what we'd all call "German" helmets.

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RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/13/2014 7:54:54 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

That process has been going on for WW II for 20ish years or so. When I was in college, there was a text published that was immediately branded as a revisionist pro German propaganda piece. The historian who wrote it (and you'll have to forgive me, I no longer remember the name of the book or the author) essentially argued that the traditional causal theory - ie.. WW 2 was an act of German aggression and the blame lies with Hitler - was incorrect. His thesis was that global stability is the result of every nation asserting their own national interests, in effect everyone pushing against everyone else creating a state of equilibrium. World War 2 was the result of the other European powers (and to a lesser extent, America) failing to assert their own interests thereby creating a void in international diplomacy. And we all know how nature abhors a vacuum.

That theory isn't nearly as controversial today as it was when I was in college.

warspite1

Interesting points although personally I cannot subscribe to this.

quote:

His thesis was that global stability is the result of every nation asserting their own national interests, in effect everyone pushing against everyone else creating a state of equilibrium.

Sounds like the build up to WWI - and we know how that ended up.....

quote:

World War 2 was the result of the other European powers (and to a lesser extent, America) failing to assert their own interests thereby creating a void in international diplomacy.

WWII or a war of some description would have happened even if other powers tried to assert their own interests (albeit that if the Western powers (with the Poles and Czechs maybe joining them from the east) had invaded Germany in 1936-1938 - when any conflict would have likely been very brief).

If ever there was a bogeyman - a cause of war - it was Adolf Hitler. The west did what they could, but there was nothing - not appeasement and not the threat of war (as he later proved) - that was going to stop this madman from bringing war to Europe.

World War II was the result of Adolf Hitler coming to power.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/13/2014 10:04:13 PM >

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Post #: 115

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/13/2014 9:44:13 PM

paulderynck

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Many would argue it was the result of the Versailles treaty that (supposedly) ended WWI, but as Foch said "this isn't peace, it's an armistice for twenty years".

In other words, yes Hitler made things much worse, and likely much sooner, but chances were very high that many of the same countries would be fighting again eventually - after 1919.

They even messed up the Peace so badly, two of the Powers changed sides...

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Post #: 116

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/13/2014 9:48:28 PM

Dabrion

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
World War II was the result of Adolf Hitler coming to power.

That is as true as it is incomplete. It is quite interesting to investigate the economical and political dynamics of the interwar period. Fascinating era actually!

_____________________________

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- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

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Post #: 117

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/13/2014 10:33:47 PM

Dabrion

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Many would argue it was the result of the Versailles treaty that (supposedly) ended WWI, but as Foch said "this isn't peace, it's an armistice for twenty years".

In other words, yes Hitler made things much worse, and likely much sooner, but chances were very high that many of the same countries would be fighting again eventually - after 1919.

They even messed up the Peace so badly, two of the Powers changed sides...

I think the German aided Lenin coup and resulting rise of communism (not yet stalinism) in Russia was a forming factor for the political landscape of the interwar era. Much of the political maneuvering in the 20's by the Versails victor powers was to contain the Cominter sphere of influence.

Germany was in a very fragile state politically and economically. Germany couldn't pay the demanded reparations, so France took the Ruhegebiet, the other industrial area besides Silecia (which went to Poland). So Germany did only thing left .. if you need more money, you print more money. Easy right.. except the hyperinflation this brought with it. Hyperinflation kills savings, which in turn kills the middle class. So you were left with the poor, and rich and the newly poor. Nice breeding ground for social revolts!

All in all a resemblance of todays Ukraine, perhaps. Not a direct parallel, but not a bad one either. I personally think a communist coups was at least as likely as a fascist one. I also think historical events are not random. Perhaps the powers that be decided, the maniac was the lesser weevil ..

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Post #: 118

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/13/2014 11:42:30 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
World War II was the result of Adolf Hitler coming to power.

That is as true as it is incomplete. It is quite interesting to investigate the economical and political dynamics of the interwar period. Fascinating era actually!

warspite1

I agree, the whole era is intriguing, I just don't buy the idea that Hitler wasn't to blame. Yes there are a ton of factors that caused / helped his rise to power, but once in charge, there was one outcome and one outcome only. The only question was what form any war would take, not that he was going to start one.

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Post #: 119

RE: OT - Best WWII movie? - 11/14/2014 12:58:22 AM

brian brian

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Joined: 11/16/2005
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The usual argument is not about whether Hitler would have inevitably led Germany to war, but rather if the Allies had the will/capability to oppose him earlier, whether he could have stayed in power, and then whether that is thus the fault of the Allies. The amount of power Hitler held on September 1st, 1939, was not the same as how much he had in January, 1933 - that grew throughout the 1930s and only gradually became absolute.

The Allies had their own internal politics to consider, including the sentiments of democratic publics, so in some ways, it is amazing they did finally declare war on Hitler over a country on the other side of Germany.

Then there is a different approach to the history, more "conspiracy" minded, that looks at balance of trade and international monetary issues and the famous old banking families, etc., that I've never read that closely.

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 120