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Problem with "evaporating" LCUs and no VP credit

 
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Problem with "evaporating" LCUs and no VP credit - 11/12/2014 9:55:35 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		Something tells me this shouldn't have happened:




1) There was never a fragment of this unit at Tokyo. They went from Malaya to Palembang to Australia. This fragment was just surrounded there this turn:

quote:

CombatEvents.txt

Japanese Unit(s) surrounded at Carnarvon

LEADER REASSIGNMENT PHASE
23rd Ind.Mixed Brigade arrives at Canton
18th Division arrives at Tokyo - what?


2) Bullwinkle should have gotten VPs for these devices being destroyed. I am not sure if he did or not, as we also had an attack at Chungking this turn. His VPs for LCUs ticked upwards by 30 points even, but it's possible that at least 2/3 of that is from Chungking.

2a) Besides that, this unit fragment should be worth 39 VPs. This leads me to believe he didn't get them.

3) They retained their movement order when they respawned at Tokyo. They missed IRL Halloween by a couple of weeks. Doing zombie night in Tokyo now is just tacky.

4) Tracker LCU history portion of the screenshot shows that I had a fragment of 18th Division at Hedland already, but last turn after he attacked the "main" unit became the one at Hedland, and 18th Division/1 was assigned to the Carnarvon fragment.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 9/25/2015 6:13:28 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 11/12/2014 9:57:38 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		Help us, Michael!

Would it be possible to remove this zombie unit and manually bump up the Japanese Army Loss total?


Or is this somehow WAD? Why would units that are surrounded respawn? Has anyone else had it happen?

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 2
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 11/12/2014 10:24:16 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		Turn attached.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 3
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 11/13/2014 1:08:42 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		Considering the EXP level of the unit in question, they fought through the Ozzie lines, reached Brisbane, stole a ship, and made it back to Tokyo.

The 90 disruption is from the party they threw to celebrate their escape.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 4
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 11/13/2014 5:57:33 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Did you have replacements on on the Carnarvon fragment? Could be a small glitch/logic error in the replacement system.

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Post #: 5
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 11/13/2014 3:14:30 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Did you have replacements on on the Carnarvon fragment? Could be a small glitch/logic error in the replacement system.


I would have to go back and look. I will do that when I get a chance... my guess is yes, but it's possible that they were off to save supplies.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 6
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 11/14/2014 10:56:23 AM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline 		I had an Aussie unit do that one time that I remember. Was in Port Moresby. Thought it was a destroyed unit. Didn't see it listed as a lost unit in the combat reports. Next turn it was in Sydney....GP

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(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 7
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 11/14/2014 9:55:29 PM   
jcjordan

 

Posts: 1900
Joined: 6/27/2001
Status: offline 		My thoughts are that it was a replacement fragment. The first 18/1 was lost during the combat of the turn then during the replacement phase an "new" 18/1 appeared in Tokyo. I've seen this kind of behavior many times in my games & assume it might be happening due to some kind of supply/HQ thing & appears in the "home" city of nation instead of nearby HQ or main land unit itself.

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 8
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 11/14/2014 10:09:55 PM   
BPRE

 

Posts: 624
Joined: 10/16/2000
From: Stockholm,Sweden
Status: offline 		Hi,

Probably an old "glitch" in the code from the original WitP. I've just had the same thing happen to me in a WitP game.

I'm not so sure it's a bad thing. IRL I think this is exactly what happened. As long as you have replacement devices available and the experience is adjusted to newcomers.

Regards
BPRE

(in reply to jcjordan)
Post #: 9
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 11/15/2014 2:46:57 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Considering the EXP level of the unit in question, they fought through the Ozzie lines, reached Brisbane, stole a ship, and made it back to Tokyo.
The 90 disruption is from the party they threw to celebrate their escape.

+1, an epic tale of indomitable valor, true grit, yamato spirit & big brass cojones. NTM that they deserve a party after having marched 4186 miles. All hail the veterans of the 18th Div!

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 10
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 11/15/2014 4:30:40 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		Blah, blah, blah. I want my 39 VPs. It's equivalent to a sunk CA.

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(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 11
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 11/15/2014 4:37:59 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Blah, blah, blah. I want my 39 VPs. It's equivalent to a sunk CA.


An Allied CA, maybe....

IJN CAs are worth at least 25% more than that! Mine are better than yours....kind of...

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 12
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 11/15/2014 6:41:02 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		In a game vs. the AI, I had a glunch w/ a USMC Rgt. I'd divided a USMC div to 3 Rgts, & sent them off separately to do dirt to the enemy. Something weird happened code-wise to the B rgt - even though it didn't take hvy casualties, it changed its name to "Div/B/1". Its parent "Div/B" never appeared as a destroyed unit for buy-back & Div/B/1 never updated itself to Div/B - so I was never able to re-combine that USMC div, when they eventually got co-located at the same base.

In your case, don't you still have the parent 18th Div on-map at Port Hedland? As your game continues, it'd be interesting to learn if the PH contingent is destroyed, will the 18/1 then become the parent 18th Div?

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 13
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 11/15/2014 1:21:39 PM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Blah, blah, blah. I want my 39 VPs. It's equivalent to a sunk CA.


An Allied CA, maybe....

IJN CAs are worth at least 25% more than that! Mine are better than yours....kind of...


They sink faster to.....GP

_____________________________

Intel i7 4.3GHz 10th Gen,16GB Ram,Nvidia GeForce MX330

AKA General Patton

WPO,WITP,WITPAE-Mod Designer/Tester
DWU-Beta Tester
TOAW4-Alpha/Beta Tester

"Do everything you ask of those you command"....Gen. George S. Patton

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 14
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 11/15/2014 3:26:58 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

In a game vs. the AI, I had a glunch w/ a USMC Rgt. I'd divided a USMC div to 3 Rgts, & sent them off separately to do dirt to the enemy. Something weird happened code-wise to the B rgt - even though it didn't take hvy casualties, it changed its name to "Div/B/1". Its parent "Div/B" never appeared as a destroyed unit for buy-back & Div/B/1 never updated itself to Div/B - so I was never able to re-combine that USMC div, when they eventually got co-located at the same base.

In your case, don't you still have the parent 18th Div on-map at Port Hedland? As your game continues, it'd be interesting to learn if the PH contingent is destroyed, will the 18/1 then become the parent 18th Div?


My guess is yes.

And I suppose I'll just recombine them, but... something happened here that shouldn't have. I guess Bullwinkle will have to accept extra fuel burn on my part instead of 39 VPs.

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 15
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 9/25/2015 5:00:09 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		I have an update to this. I think there is almost definitely a bug in the routine that displays the "unit(s) surrounded at [base]" message. This is the second time this has occurred, with far greater consequences this time.

The first time was earlier in this thread - as detailed, the division fragment was "surrounded" at a base in NW Australia but appeared in Tokyo the very next turn. Bullwinkle never received credit for killing these devices (39 VPs worth), when he certainly should have.

Next, this just happened within the past 3 turns or so. Sequence of events:

1) Port Blair falls to the Allies. Prior to this, I had lifted out portions of the AF Bn and Infantry Division at the base so that I would not have to buy them back with PPs, or completely rebuild them.

2) This causes 48th Division/1 to be present at the base I lifted them out to, while the parent unit 48th Division was still at Port Blair. In the screenshot of the Formation history in Tracker I will add to this thread, you will see a minimum count of what occurred.

3) After another successful Allied attack at Port Blair, there are some IJA casualties... and during the turn resolution, it says:

94th JAAF AF Bn Wiped Out at Port Blair by attrition!!!

Japanese unit(s) surrounded at Port Blair [this would be the 48th Division, since only 2 units were there

4) Post-turn Tracker showed a gain of 18 VPs for the Allies for Japanese LCUs this turn. There was no other significant action, so that's a credit for about 108 devices.

5) 48th Division parent moved to the other base, and the devices did not teleport to Tokyo like they did last time. However, they simply disappeared. Bullwinkle got no credit for destroying them.


Here is what the 48th Division looked like prior to this turn, as well as the AF Bn.




I'm not even sure what's happening here, but my coder's hunch says it's within whatever happens when a unit is surrounded since strange behavior has now happened twice with that message, and because it always appears to award full VPs when you see "wiped out due to attrition!!!" But the 29 devices in the AF Bn unit are only worth 5 VPs at the most, and yet he gained 18 for the day without appreciable action elsewhere, so he might've gotten partial credit for the division?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 9/25/2015 6:01:09 PM >

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 16
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 9/25/2015 5:10:57 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		Turn from November 26 attached. During the replay for November 26, Port Blair falls, so this is 1 or 2 turns prior to the bug, depending on how you count.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 17
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 9/25/2015 5:12:05 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		Turn from November 27 attached, which I just generated by running the November 26 turn and used to take the screenshot of LCU status at Port Blair. It is during the resolution of this turn that the bug occurs.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 18
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 9/25/2015 6:26:05 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks, Loka. If I can provide any info from my side to Michael I will. But I think you have all the truth in the Japanese data.

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Post #: 19
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 9/26/2015 2:04:28 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Yes, there is something funny. For the 48th, it looks like you are only getting points for the 'disabled' devices, not the rest. And I don't think that it should removing the unit - I suspect that in this case the unit should stay put and every turn it would lose some devices (and thus points).

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Michael

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 20
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 9/26/2015 4:29:48 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		The 48th Div as it stands is worth about 1600 points (army loss points, not VPs)

< Message edited by michaelm -- 10/1/2015 11:17:27 AM >

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Michael

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Post #: 21
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 9/26/2015 5:29:25 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		Michael, FWIW a few thoughts.

Lokasenna and I have speculated that the two different "post combat, end of the combat report" cases--the "attrition" case and the "surrounded" case--might be behaving differently in the area of VP calculations and awards.

1. The "attrition" case seems from a player's perspective to happen when there is only one LCU at stake. The text line has a spot for a text string containing the LCU name to be inserted. It seems to only handle single LCUs ejected from their former base and still co-located in the hex, now outside the base in a defensive posture. As far as we can tell VPs are calculated for this case all the time. When the unit is destroyed by attrition the VPs are awarded.

2. The "surrounded" case seems to allow for multiple LCUs in a stack to be handled. It doesn't insert any LCU names and the "unit(s)" notation allows for a stack. In my experience playing several campaigns a stack surrounded may, but does not always, evaporate on the next opponent attack. In all cases where there is a stack at least one LCU does evaporate on each attack, and possibly multiple LCUs, but the finishing-off process for the stack can take multiple turns. I have never checked to see if VPs are awarded on each attack turn on a surrounded stack. It might be possible that the VP calculation method is not being called in all cases for the surrounded case. Since these two notations are always printed at the bottom of the CR, even when the relevant base's combat was several ground combats above in the flow, it seems to an observer it would need a second, subsidiary VP calculation run.

3. In our game there were about 8900 men outside the base on the attack turn, plus some gun and vehicle devices. In my experience this is a very large number of defenders to evaporate on a first attack after being forced out of the base itself. Normally an attrition or surrounded case is on scraps after the defenders have been pounded for several turns by the new base owner.

4. In this Port Blair battle we did not see the teleportation of the Japanese LCU as we did in the other base that started the thread (Geraldton I think.) That may or may not be relevant.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. I need the VPs.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 9/26/2015 6:32:36 PM >

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(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 22
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 9/26/2015 11:09:09 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Normal sequence is for units to become 'surrounded' and lose some devices for VPs. At some point, the units will start to fall to 'attrition'.
Often if the unit is already at the threshold, they jump straight to the 'attrition' part.

The bug I have found is that when the unit is 'surrounded', it loses some devices (and you get the VPs), BUT then is removed from the map. Depending on the unit type (fragment or not), this can also lead to it being being teleported to a national base or going into the reinforcement queue for the next turn.

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 23
RE: Surrounded unit teleported to Tokyo, didn't die - 9/27/2015 12:37:41 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		Great news. Thanks for your work on this.

PM sent.

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The Moose

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Post #: 24
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