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Patch 2.1 status - 2/16/2003 3:30:43 AM

Andrew Ewanchyna

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Joined: 8/24/2001
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Okay, I've been working on patch 2.1 and have completed the following things:

-fixed a few crash-to-desktops
-fixed a problem with how planets are sorted in Planets popup
-AI will no longer fire planet killers or killer beams at targets with an invicible shield
-fixed a problem where time would stop, related to manually firing standoffs
-now include wisdom artifacts aboard ships to stop people from stealing AI wisdoms and hoarding their own aboard ships
-made random events more random
-AI players now value world improvements more (e.g. labs, replicators)
-made AI players less predicable in their attack targets
-corrected a bug related to transferring weapons from a double-shot unit to a non-double-shot unit
-now clearing a world/ship's auto-build queue when it's taken over
-no longer resetting ship's crew composition when changing aggression level
-can no longer activate best drive artifacts on worlds
-fixed a bug where AI ships weren't upgrading enough
-improved things so that AI now builds more ships later in the game
-tweeked how AI spends money on subversion and pirate aid
-Improved the AI's research picking abilities
-AI is better at sending ships waiting for upgrades to other worlds
-corrected a bug that could cause ships to sit and wait on attack/capture missions

That's all for now. Still more to come. Thanks for your input so far.

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Developer of Starships Unlimited

Post #: 1

- 2/17/2003 9:41:05 AM

SideshowBob

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Joined: 3/27/2002
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Thanks Andrew - looks like a vast improvement!

But I still can't download 2.0, even tried the FTP site - it tells me the page is not available - same message I get when clicking on the link - what gives?

(in reply to Andrew Ewanchyna)

Post #: 2

- 2/17/2003 11:08:10 AM

Andrew Ewanchyna

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Joined: 8/24/2001
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Try the links offered from this site:
[URL=http://chtserv.dlh.net/cgi-bin/dlp.cgi?lang=eng&sys=pc&file=sudgv20.zip&ref=ps]http://chtserv.dlh.net/cgi-bin/dlp.cgi?lang=eng&sys=pc&file=sudgv20.zip&ref=ps[/URL]

_____________________________

Developer of Starships Unlimited

(in reply to Andrew Ewanchyna)

Post #: 3

Re: Patch 2.1 status - 2/17/2003 10:58:32 PM

EricLarsen

Posts: 458
Joined: 7/9/2002
From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
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Originally posted by Andrew Ewanchyna
[B]-now include wisdom artifacts aboard ships to stop people from stealing AI wisdoms and hoarding their own aboard ships
[/B]

Andrew,
Looks like lots of good changes except I'm a bit concerned about this one. Since one guy put up how he "cheats" the AI by loading up his wisdom artifacts on a ship and sends it patrolling some system I think a bit too much has been made of this cheat. For one thing the guy is unwittingly cheating himself out of the extra research benefits that wisdom artifacts give a player!:eek:

In my last game at the advanced level with random civs I ended up with 2 alien races. I was able to search about 2/3 of the systems with 3 ships and no wormholes (it was set to on but none showed up) while the other 2 alien races searched a measly 1/3 of the galaxy. I ended up with 7 research artifacts while the other 2 aliens had one each. I had a massive research advantage with those 7 wisdom artifacts, my large sol homeworld pumping out 264% at it's peak. I even managed to get into the singularity age before the aliens managed to swipe 3 of my WA's and then federate and end up with 5 to my 4. It just wasn't a big deal and if I had wanted them back I could have just attacked their homeworlds and taken them back since I had such a large lead in ships.

No I'm not in favor of having the AI put WA's on ships to hide them from stealing as all it will do is make the AI aliens that much more behind the eightball when it comes to research. Better to leave WA's on homeworlds where they can do some good for research efforts even if there's a chance they'll get stolen. Besides all we'll have to do is figure out where a ship is patrolling a system with no pirates and we'll know which ship to attack to steal them away even easier. Or they could be put on some small ship that could then get killed by pirates and then the pirates would end up with the WA's. I'd say the only time to pack up the WA's would be when the world they are on is being attacked; then it would be prudent for the AI to pack the WA's up and take them to another world not being attacked but able to benefit from the research boost.;)

I never, ever put WA's on ships to hide them as I know it only cheats me out of the wonderful research bonus they provide. Please don't make the AI aliens any dumber by having them cheat themselves out of the WA research bonus.
Eric Larsen

(in reply to Andrew Ewanchyna)

Post #: 4

- 2/18/2003 1:15:04 AM

Andrew Ewanchyna

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You've misread, Eric. The AI isn't going to use this cheat. It's going to prevent you from using your spies from stealing another's wisdom artifacts when you already have 4. Before, it was only checking your worlds. Now it checks your ships as well. This is an old cheat that I thought was plugged.

_____________________________

Developer of Starships Unlimited

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Post #: 5

- 2/18/2003 3:24:20 AM

SideshowBob

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Thanks for the link Andrew! I got to it and it tells me it'll take 1-1/2 hours with my dial up modem, so I'll download it later!

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Post #: 6

- 2/18/2003 10:52:07 AM

SideshowBob

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OK, after 3-1/2 HOURS of downloading I FINALLY got v2.0 & played thru the beginning of a game - great improvement in the look of the sentry's and font - thanks Andrew! 2.1 should be even better!

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Post #: 7

Good change - 2/18/2003 10:35:03 PM

EricLarsen

Posts: 458
Joined: 7/9/2002
From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
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Originally posted by Andrew Ewanchyna
[B]You've misread, Eric. The AI isn't going to use this cheat. It's going to prevent you from using your spies from stealing another's wisdom artifacts when you already have 4. Before, it was only checking your worlds. Now it checks your ships as well. This is an old cheat that I thought was plugged. [/B]

Andrew,
Thanks for the clarification, the way it sounded to me was that you were going to allow the aliens to cheat as well. I like that now the program will count WA's on ships as well as on the worlds for a total count so you can't "hide" some and make the aliens think you've got less than you really do and to allow the human player to use this cheat to steal more from the AI aliens.

Too bad you couldn't make it so that when a player returns wisdom artifacts to one of his worlds that he can't remove them. Once set on a player's world they would be stuck on that world/colony until the end of the game or it gets swiped by some alien.
Eric Larsen

(in reply to Andrew Ewanchyna)

Post #: 8

Don't forget this bug - 2/18/2003 10:42:52 PM

EricLarsen

Posts: 458
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From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
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Andrew,
Lots of good fixes in patch 2.1. I hope that when AI worlds build world enhancement techs like labs and research facilities and replicator facilities that the AI will only build one of each. I also think the AI needs to not be so anal about building up every slot early in the game for every world/colony. I find that it builds way too many weapons early on a planet and then hardly ever upgrades them. What a waste of production and upkeep!

I also hope that the bug I reported about worlds/colonies dropping off the spy screen will get fixed. In my last game at the advanced level it happened yet again. It seems to happen every game I play at either the intermediate or advanced levels and it really needs to be fixed so every world/colony shows up on the spy screen all the time. This problem also happens on the interstellar standoff targeting screen where whole worlds drop off and can't be targetted. The only way to bring them back on both screens when the world gets lost in the programming shuffle is to build an informant on the world again. Please get this fixed in 2.1.
Eric Larsen

(in reply to Andrew Ewanchyna)

Post #: 9

Better artifacts - 2/18/2003 10:49:10 PM

EricLarsen

Posts: 458
Joined: 7/9/2002
From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
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Andrew,
It sure would be nice if you cuold tweak the artifact setting routine to include better artifacts and less of the lightning and storm dissipators that are only useful for the early part of the game. I'd like to see more master engineers and more weapon specialists. I'd also like to see more beam and standoff aces versus bolt, torpedo, or fighter aces. I have heard rumors of a 25% production boost artifact but have yet to see one myself. It sure would be nice to have a better mix of artifacts as that would help the AI aliens as well as ourselves.
Eric Larsen

(in reply to Andrew Ewanchyna)

Post #: 10

Random events - 2/18/2003 10:53:38 PM

EricLarsen

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From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
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Andrew,
I like that you're finally making random events random. That ought to make them worth playing with. My only concern regards ships and worlds switching to other sides. I hope that only when unrest reaches 100% (or maybe just gets into the red range) would ships or worlds/colonies switch to another player's control. It would give more incentive to watching for that. I remember in my last advanced game some alien turned my philosophy and I was being braindead and somehow kept ignoring the blinking button that tells us to watch our unrest. If I knew that with random events I might lose a ship or world then I'll be a bit more vigilant in watching my unrest.
Eric Larsen

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Post #: 11

Solving the Wisdom Artifact stuff - 2/19/2003 4:55:57 AM

KaiMaster_pressl

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Joined: 12/19/2002
From: Minneapolis, MN
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I would suggest it be handled this way if possible:

Let's assume I find a wisdom artifact in agriculture. I transport it back to Sol and give it to the planet. At this point, the artifact still DOES NOT HELP ME. Just like a regular artifact, you must activate it first.

To activate a wisdom artifact, you need an open laboratory/more advanced research building (this means 4 max per huge planet etc). Then you use it, and it *attaches* to the building. If you destroy the lab, you can deactivate the WA and transport it elsewhere. But while it is being used it becomes an integral part of the lab. Think of it as in real life, you would build or refit a lab to concentrate on the task at hand. It would help the AI out with research, and eliminate this really CHEAP tactic of stealing all of the WAs from the comps.

Personally I don't feel that an activated WA should be able to be stolen AT ALL. Instead the spies could steal artifacts that are stored on the planet but are unactivated.

_____________________________

-- Kai

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Post #: 12

Interesting concept - 2/22/2003 6:35:39 AM

EricLarsen

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From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
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KaiMaster,
You have some interesting ideas about making wisdom artifacts a bit more difficult to use and steal. Your idea about "attaching " them to a lab or research facility before they can work is interesting as well as the concept of the lab/research facility being destroyed destroying the WA. It's improbable that Andrew would make such a radical change as that would involve a lot of new programming, especially since WA's are indestructible artifacts. Another drawback would be that if you happen to collect a lot of WA's then you'd have to build lots of labs/research facilities to house them. Plus there's the question of what happens if you remove a lab to make room for a research facility.

It may well be a lot easier if WA's just become stuck to the world they are first returned to. Plus I think that there's a bit too much fudge factor in the spy routine for stealing WA's. While the chance of success is 5% and the security level of the alien worlds I pick them off from is around 15% I should expect to lose about three spies for every WA stolen. With more than 20 games under my belt I can easily say that I see 3 WA's stolen for every spy caught which suggests that something is skewing the odds when it shouldn't. I think stealing artifacts should be far more difficult than it currently is and that we really should be seeing more spies being discovered before WA's get swiped.
Eric Larsen

(in reply to Andrew Ewanchyna)

Post #: 13

- 2/25/2003 4:37:21 AM

KaiMaster_pressl

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From: Minneapolis, MN
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[QUOTE]If you destroy the lab, you can deactivate the WA and transport it elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

I never said anything about a WA being destroyed. You could attach them to worlds too, that might be easier to code. But they *could* be coded to connect with a lab. It just becomes a new lab item that you can't build. And you'd have a special lab item per tech level (instead of 4 lab "types" throughout the ages you'd have 8... one with WA and one without).

If war is coming and you are losing ground, you can uproot your WA and relocate it elsewhere. During this time it *can* be stolen.

That is all I was saying. It certainly should not involve an overhaul of the internal game mechanics to put something like that into place.

_____________________________

-- Kai

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Post #: 14

AI improvements - 2/25/2003 11:50:51 PM

EricLarsen

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From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
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I've been playing more advanced games with the challenging pirates. If there's one thing I'm seeing now that is a weakness for the AI it is in the initial stages of the game. One thing the AI does rather poorly is the opening easter egg hunt. I routinely out explore the AI, and I mean I end up with more artifacts than all the AI aliens combined when there's only two or three. I regularly explore about half the galaxy by myself while the aliens together maybe manage to explore the other half. Considering that I have only a large world to produce/research from and less starting cash I should not be able to outexplore the AI aliens by such a wide margin. But I've finally hit upon a real winning combination of opening builds and researches that I believe gives me a real advantage early on.

First I research the optical computer to increase combat efficiency and to widen my view of the surrounding stars. The first thing I do after setting my first research project is to build another scout. I also put 2 computers on my first ship along with more pack rockets. Having 2 computers early on ensures a much wider view of nearby stars thereby increasing your search possibilities. I send that ship around on one search pass before switching the second computer to a second drive. Then I research the electromechanical drive to gain speed for my ships. Then I go for shields, I like laser shields myself but any shield will do and never armor. There's nothing like having well protected scouts early on to help keep them from getting overly damaged and spending lots of time in spacedock repairing. That alone allows me to do more searches because my ships are now not wasting a lot of time repairing instead of out searching. Then it's time for some new weapons and I always go for beam weapons first. I research the defensive lightning beam and then the lightning beam so that I now can replace the pack rockets with lightning beam weapons that don't need to be replenished at a spacedock. Now my ships are capable of extended search missions and I regularly have them collect 20 to 30 artifacts before turning back to dump them off at the homeworld. I also try to either build another ship or hope to find that magical instant ship artifact so that I have 3 ships hunting for artifacts.

Another thing is I'm rather picky about what star systems I turn into freighter routes. I almost always pass on anything less than $10 per year, figuring I'll pick them up later. I tend to be careful about making freighter routes early on and reducing my research time. Early on I'm more interested in my first 5 research projects getting finished as quickly as possible so I can get as many artifacts as possible. After the weapons I usually go back to freighters. labs, informants, colony pods and the other stuff that makes my world go round better and I get my standoff weapons line started. Lightning beams are great against sentinels but you really need standoffs before facing off against alien enemies. I also like to go with a 50-50 spread of scientists and engineers early on until I feel the need for security and naval personnel and then the security and naval comes from the scientists. I can always improve my research ability with WA's by then and it is important not to undercut the production so that ship refit times are reasonably short. I've found that refitting warships increases freighter wastage so having more engineers is important to keep down the freighter wastage. If I have a master engineer artifact I always activate it on my worlds, homeworld first ofcourse.

Another thing I don't do early on that the AI does is waste time and money on building up a world's defense. If you have to rely on world defenses then you've already lost that world. The best world defense is a strong fleet of constantly updated warships. Too often I find the aliens building a few little ships but then stopping and accumulating lots of money that could be better spent on ships. Instead of wasting production on world shields and weapons early on the AI should be building ships. If a world gets targetted then start building shields and weapons and make sure to station a good fleet there.

Instead of trying world attacks the AI should be more busy at making lots of freighter route raids. One thing I've found is that my ships collect money while raiding and then destroying the freighter gives some combat experience as well as lessening the AI alien's income. The AI should also be better at sending ships that are ready to fight rather than setting them a mission and then they have to go and do some refit before leaving. Far too many times I get more than enough advance warning of a raid that I can get an interceptor in there before the alien gets his raider there and then it's lights out for the alien. The AI alien needs to update ships more often so that the ships it does send are as advanced as possible so that they have some chance of maybe winnign a battle.

Another bad habit of the AI aliens is not updating spacedocks. I always find a type-1 spacedock on alien homeworlds, even though they might have type 2 or 3 spacedocks on noewer worlds. The AI must update all spacedocks regularly to increase ship refit efficiency; it's the only way I can manage such large fleets myself.

I sure hope some of these suggestions make their way into the AI alien program. I sure would like to play a better opponent than what I'm seeing now. Even when trying to go slow and not wipe out enemy worlds I've usually won the game not long after reaching the fushion age. The advanced level with challenging pirates just isn't challenging anymore.
Eric Larsen

(in reply to Andrew Ewanchyna)

Post #: 15

AI shouldn't overbuild - 2/26/2003 10:43:14 PM

EricLarsen

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From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
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Geez, am I the last man left standing here at the SUDG corral? Another thing I'd like to see improved in the AI is to not have it build multiple copies of stuff on a world. One lab, or replicator facility or nano factory or research facility is enough for each world. While there may be some additional benefit for multiple copies; I doubt it is worth the time wasted to produce the item, thereby reducing research time. The additional benefit will only be a benefit in the long run and in the beginning a short-term strategy works better. The other consideration is upkeep and I find it better to make one copy of anything and if it becomes obsolete because of a newer item then I remove it to save on upkeep. This would certainly help the AI last longer by being able to build more ships and research techs faster.
Eric Larsen

(in reply to Andrew Ewanchyna)

Post #: 16

- 2/27/2003 7:30:29 AM

SideshowBob

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Eric - I've been lurking about but not much new to say. I'd reiterate that you try 6 or 7 or 8 civ's at advanced level to really give you some challenge. It makes all the difference in the world. A lot of your concerns about AI anemia will be addressed. Random Civ's just never gives me enough opponents - I think it is set up assuming the player may be using 50 or 75 stars - when Andrew added the 150 star galaxy (which I always play), I don't think he updated Random Civ's to reflect this, so you only ever get 2 or 3 or 4 at the most opponents. The last few games I've played the main thing I find lacking in the alien AI's is the lack of colonization on thier part - a few civ's colonize but only to the limits of the artifacts they found (Instant Colony or Instant Pop) - later in the game they fall way behind, even the large federations, as I'm colonizing like crazy, and the additional population of my civ gives me a huge research and production boost, even with less of the galaxy under my control. Not much else, this is all a re-iteration of stuff I've said already . . . happy gaming!

(in reply to Andrew Ewanchyna)

Post #: 17

- 2/27/2003 8:11:04 AM

startrekdork

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What im waiting for is a mod. i saw someone else who said they were going to try and mod but nothing ever came of that.

hopefully somewhere down the road there could be a patch that made modding the tech tree possible. andrew said that the tech tree is part on disk and part on the hard drive so just if there were some way to make it moddable or something?! sure patches that refine the gameplay are great but there is only so much upgrading of the gameplay that can be done. take moo3 for instance............that game is getting horrible reviews!

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Post #: 18

- 3/2/2003 6:01:14 AM

SideshowBob

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Oh, to the game designers, Andrew, Mark, et al, my opinion is I STILL want the ability to move my wisdom artifacts around from planet to planet throughout the game. This is a strategy I employ to force my enemys to build spies on every world. It buys me time while they do that, and lessens the chance my Wisdoms get stolen. Also, at the Advanced level, starting with a Large Sol, once I have 3 more worlds fully developed that are Very Large or Huge, I usually convert Sol to a production planet, removing all Research Facilities and building 4 Deep Mining Facil's, and converting the population to 30% Sec/70% Engineers. I certainly wouldn't keep my WA's on Sol in that case. In most cases, the aliens have the most spies on Sol (that's where money gets stolen from the most), so that is the worst place to keep your WA's.

(in reply to Andrew Ewanchyna)

Post #: 19