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RE: March-April review (T45) - 10/20/2014 11:04:41 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf


quote:

ORIGINAL: caliJP

That is a mighty fighting force backed by a full rail net....


My amateur's speculation is that the great rail network the Axis has at this time will outweigh the logistics reduction you put in place. Except for Axis players who attempt a Blue style deep strike, they can operate close to the front lines, with very good supply, and still engage -- or pocket -- vast numbers of Soviet units.



As in the next post, I'm pretty sure he is building up a relatively small elite force, I guess mostly his motorised units and a handful of infantry divisions. Elsewhere some of his infantry divisions seem to be incredibly fragile (or I just got ridiculously lucky in the last turn). Also, for the first time, there are sectors held by Rumanians (on there own if my recon is correct).

So my view, subject to change and being utterly wrong, is that at the moment SigUp is planning one big offensive and daren't let his flanks get too long or exposed. I've been obsessively revising my deployment in and around Tula to make it hard for him to pull off a monster encirclement and if he goes for army sized chunks he gets none of my better units - even better I maybe able not just to re-open a pocket but really make the outer screening units pay a high price.

One serious temptation is to leave a weak screen and pull right back, anchoring the Moscow defense on the Oka. But I feel I have to fight somewhere in the summer and Tula is as good as I have (here I am assuming no sustained attritional drive direct on Moscow).

< Message edited by loki100 -- 10/20/2014 12:16:31 PM >


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T46: 30 April – 5 May 1942 - 10/20/2014 11:23:02 AM   
loki100


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Turn 46: 30 April – 5 May 1942: Poplyli tumany nad rekoj [1]

The end of April saw the creation of more Tank Corps, deployment of additional forces into the Tula sector and desperate attempts to stiffen the morale and training of the Red Army. Although industrial production had recovered from the worst of the disruption of 1941, both equipment and manpower remained in short supply.


(Roughly: Nurses – Rescue the wounded and their weapons)

However, while both armies were focussed on their preparations for the Summer battles, the fickle weather created opportunities and problems. A return to freezing conditions around Moscow and in the Caucasus allowed for limited offensive actions.



Ground Operations

On the southern edge of the Tula-Voronezh sector, the German armoured build up continued but their infantry tried to eliminate a Soviet bridgehead over the Mecha in order to secure their flank.



The opening phase saw their 13 Infantry Corps drive in elements of 28 Army. However, a sharp counterstroke by cavalry units from 43 Army quickly restored the original front lines.



With the Germans under some pressure, Leningrad Front authorised a supporting attack by 24 Army at Teploe. Despite initial successes, the intervention of German reserves quickly stalled the attack leading to heavy Soviet losses.

At the same time Southern Front launched a localised offensive along the Tikhaya Sosna and drove in over-extended German spearheads.




[2]

Of note, this operation saw the first combat commitment of US provided A-20 attack aircraft.



Finally, the Germans broke out of the Kerch peninsular and their 54 Infantry Corps drove in Soviet outlying defences and made progress towards the main defence line at Krasnodar-Novorossiysk.



Air War
The air war continued unabated but with two separate campaigns. Defensively, especially in the Tula sector, the VVS was protecting Soviet deployments from air reconnaissance and shot down a further 8 German reconnaissance planes [3].

Offensively, the U2s continued their harassment attacks on German mobile units. In addition, several German airbases were identified as being the base for transport and reconnaissance planes and were heavily bombed. The problem in all these operations was that the German fighters remained dominant inflicting heavy losses on Soviet fighters. The only operational advantage was that increasingly the German fighters were unable to disrupt Soviet bombers.



Commentary

[1] – translate as 'fog lay over the river' from the Russian folksong Katyusha that was very popular during the Great Patriotic War. 'Katyusha' is the dimunitive/affectionate form of the female name 'Katya' … as well as the nickname given to the Soviet rocket launchers. The tune was re-used for the Italian partisan song 'Fischia il vento'.

[2] – this attack was quite informative. From my records, the Germans alone have added 50,000 men (and 350 tanks) since the start of April. However, I'm finding a lot of 3-5 cv German infantry divisions which rather supports my fear that the bulk of these replacements are going to either the mobile units or a handful of high quality infantry forces.

Having said all that I have never seen modifications so extreme. In both the Germans ended up at under 25% of their notional value. In one my attack modification was much as expected 125-299 which was why I launched both attacks. But the first with 51 Army went up over 300%, and that is not a particularly well led formation at either army or front level.

[3] - SigUp has not flown any deep recon missions for a few turns now, so I'm reasonably sure he knows little about the deployment of my reserves. Also this steady attrition (I seem to be shooting down 8-10 per turn) must be causing longer term damage to his recon ability.

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RE: T46: 30 April – 5 May 1942 - 10/20/2014 1:21:03 PM   
jwolf

 

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It will be interesting to see more fighting -- and where it occurs -- during the mixed better weather turns to come in May.

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RE: T46: 30 April – 5 May 1942 - 10/20/2014 3:13:30 PM   
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Great thread reads like a real report from the front.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/20/2014 4:13:46 PM >


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RE: T46: 30 April – 5 May 1942 - 10/29/2014 7:57:25 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

It will be interesting to see more fighting -- and where it occurs -- during the mixed better weather turns to come in May.


well we've just finished May and apart from in the south its been solid mud. I guess that I'm the net winner from that delay? I've got my defensive arrangements as good as I can, I still think SigUp has to go for Tula et al but he has full freedom to attack anywhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Great thread reads like a real report from the front.


thank you

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T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942) - 10/29/2014 8:13:06 AM   
loki100


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T47-T50 (7 May – 3 June 1942): Morning – "Only the Seed of Noon"

By the 7 May the spring thaw had set in, clamping both armies into a sea of mud. The exception was south of the Dombas were both armies were effectively disengaged and unwilling to take advantage of the firmer ground. For good or ill, both sides were forced to rest, re-organise and prepare for the inevitable Summer battles [1].

If the ground war had come to a halt, the air war remained active. Both sides engaged in major operations seeking to inflict losses and disrupt enemy preparations. The VVS tried a dual approach of U2 night raids designed to disrupt and demoralise front line formations and massive daylight bombing raids aimed at detected concentrations of German armour. The Luftwaffe sought to exploit its technological advantage over the Soviet fighters in a series of attempts to seize air superiority around Tula and to disrupt Soviet missions into German airspace.


(one of the first LA-5s in action near Tula)

In addition, both sides carried our numerous air reconnaissance missions designed to discover the location of enemy reserves and potential build ups.

The net result was substantial air losses for both sides.



Otherwise both sides steadily built up for the coming clash.



The Germans had added an extra 70,000 men, 500 guns and 125 tanks. Their various allies had added 67,000 men, 200 guns and 10 tanks. The Red Army had increased by 270,000 men, 5,000 guns (many mortars but also new AT regiments had been deployed to key sectors), 200 tanks and 100 aircraft.

However, Soviet air reconnaissance had detected substantial German fortified zones running from the Uka to the Dombas so it seemed that some of the additional German resources had been allocated to defensive preparations.

Most of the Soviet combat Fronts now controlled 5 Armies and the largest concentration was still around Moscow itself or on the Tula-Voronezh sector. Neither the Volkhov Front in the far north nor the 3 Fronts on the lower Don had been a priority for reinforcements. In addition to the front line formations Stavka had gathered substantial reserves behind Moscow, around Tambov and in the Stalingrad sector. This secondary line was designed both as an additional defensive belt and as a source of immediate replacements for the front line formations.






Despite some arguments to the contrary [2], the Red Army remained on the defensive. While theoretically the Germans could launch their main offensive almost anywhere along the front, Stavka's attention was on the Tula-Ryazan-Voronezh triangle.

This sector was held by the all of two fronts (Leningrad and Bryansk) and the bulk of 2 others (Western and South Western).

Almost 2 million men were dug in expecting to face the main German offensive. Even ignoring the Stavka reserves, each front was deployed in a deep echelon with reserve formations up to 100 km from the current front line.

Soviet reconnaissance had identified what were believed to be 7 Pzr Corps facing this Soviet build up. A further 2 corps were believed to be on the Larna sector facing NW Front. It was feasible that this mass of German armour could swing south, or even try to take Moscow by a direct assault, but all the evidence was that eliminating the Soviet concentration around Tula would be the first step to their Summer offensive.




(Soviet forces taking a break before the coming storm)

Soviet industry was steadily recovering but there was a growing shortage of trucks and manpower reserves were limited.



[1] – consequence of using random weather – around Moscow, mud could continue for another two weeks
[2] – there are now some exposed Romanians around Rostov that it would be nice to use to train up my Tank Corps, but I am not going to risk any attacks at this stage.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by loki100 -- 10/29/2014 9:13:36 AM >


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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942) - 10/29/2014 11:56:02 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Why are your MiGs not deployed, Comrade? They are outstanding aircraft, and highly effective against the fascist airmen.

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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942) - 10/29/2014 9:56:35 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Why are your MiGs not deployed, Comrade? They are outstanding aircraft, and highly effective against the fascist airmen.


good question, and since we've just had another turn of solid mud, between terrorising the Germans with my U2s, I had a dig around. Now I am not sure how the air combat model works, so this involves a lot of guesswork but up to this I've been playing this by instinct and just assumed a fighter that is no longer in production is not as good as one that has just entered production.

What I've done is to dig out the key characteristics of the main Fighter units in action - have ignore axis allies and his ME-110s (which even my U2s can beat up)

The first two values are the ones shown when you select an air group. I presume that they are composite values and mean pretty much what they say. I've then go into the detailed logs for 3 performance issues - combat speed, rate of climb and max altitude as I assume these are important in any modelling of air combat. Finally I've looked at the effectiveness of the primary weapon system.

By now (June 42) the only thing the Mig has in its favour is altitude and max speed, but it climbs badly and its now under-gunned compared to my fighters using the 20mm ShVAK.

Ignoring the lend lease stuff and the LaGG-3s my main fighters are much the same, the Yak-7s have a small advantage in climb rate, the La-5s are a bit faster. But none come anywhere near the core performance of the BF-109. The only gain I have (assuming in all the combat data a higher value is better) is that if I can come into range then the Soviet fighters are more powerful.

To me all this sounds right. At this stage the VVS aimed to tangle up the German fighters and take their losses. The reason for fighters was to challenge German dominance in the air so they didn't have a free ride and protect Soviet bombers supporting ground operations. Soviet doctrine was that air power existed to support the Red Army, the airforce's formal title was VVS:RKKA (ie the combat airforce of the Red Army), not as an arm in its own right.

Looking at combat resolutions, that is pretty much what is happening, SigUp is shooting down few of my bombers despite winning the air to air combats.

Looking at the changes for the rest of 1942, I'm in trouble till the Yak-9s deploy in numbers.




Attachment (1)

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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942) - 10/30/2014 1:45:25 AM   
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In my admittedly limited experience with WITE, playing either side, it seems that the German and/or Soviet air forces may take some losses, but basically neither side can stop the other from performing its core bombing and ground support missions. I don't know how that compares to historical but I assume it isn't right.

As for Soviet planes and upgrades during 1942, I simply assumed that the newer models were better so I tried to phase out the older ones as best I could. As above I don't know how that compares to historical, nor in game terms if it was always helpful. I'd be interested to hear from more veteran players about these issues.

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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942) - 10/30/2014 6:59:57 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

In my admittedly limited experience with WITE, playing either side, it seems that the German and/or Soviet air forces may take some losses, but basically neither side can stop the other from performing its core bombing and ground support missions. I don't know how that compares to historical but I assume it isn't right.

As for Soviet planes and upgrades during 1942, I simply assumed that the newer models were better so I tried to phase out the older ones as best I could. As above I don't know how that compares to historical, nor in game terms if it was always helpful. I'd be interested to hear from more veteran players about these issues.


I'd be interested as well, it seems you can invest an awful lot of time in managing the air war but I'm really not sure there are huge returns

Most of the time I've seen bombers targetted by defending fighters is if you make the mistake of an unescorted raid and get caught - I've done this a few times when forgetting to do the select-shift routine for a ground attack. Makes me wonder if each fighter can only shoot once in a given combat and tend to hit fighters?

Having said that in the turn we've just run I saw a mixed attack trigger both fighter and Il-2 losses in air combat. I've been setting the combat resolution to the slowest level as it is quite informative as to what hits what and what is effective - the Il2s rockets seem to quite a killer, but its interesting to see the disruptions add up. No use in a raid not connected with combat but you do see how a pre-attack bombing raid can aid a subsequent ground attack.

... after 5 turns of solid mud its amazing what you find interesting

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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942) - 10/30/2014 3:09:13 PM   
jwolf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

... after 5 turns of solid mud its amazing what you find interesting


ROFL that is certainly true!

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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942) - 10/30/2014 8:51:36 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

... after 5 turns of solid mud its amazing what you find interesting


ROFL that is certainly true!


aye think of it as the WiTE equivalent of cabin fever ... but things have finally changed

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T51 – T52 (4 – 17 June 1942) - 10/30/2014 8:53:58 PM   
loki100


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T51 – T52 (4 – 17 June 1942): “Protect the Homely Earth”

By the 11 June the ground had finally dried out enough to allow significant combat operations. Almost a year after they had invaded the Soviet Union, the Germans commenced their second summer offensive, this time seeking the knock out blow that had eluded them in 1941.

The opening phase was a relatively limited infantry assault aimed at formations of Leningrad Front guarding the western route to Tula.



Soviet intelligence detected elements (from north to south) of 53, 9, 20, 7, 13 and 12 Infantry Corps indicating that at least 2 armies had been committed. More than anything else, the presence of 20 corps, redeployed from its victory at Sevastopol, convinced Stavka that this was the main German offensive.


(Elements of 32 Army west of Tula)

Tactical and air reconnaissance detected a major build of German armour both behind the infantry and at Voronezh (where elements of 17 Infantry corps had eliminated a Soviet bridgehead over the Don. Increasingly it was becoming clear that the Germans had taken Stavka's gambit at Tula, what was not clear was whether the Red Army would survive the coming battles.

Leningrad and Bryansk Fronts were given permission to adjust their lines so as to avoid encirclement and pull back from any exposed salients. However, this was exactly the attack that Stavka had expected and for the moment it was decided to contest the Tula-Ryazan-Voronezh triangle. Not least fresh reserves were forming up under the operational control of the freshly deployed Voronezh Front. While there was no expectation that Tula could be held, Stavka believed that given the depth of the Soviet defensive belt this offered an opportunity to inflict severe losses on the German Panzers.

The air war continued unabated. Soviet fighter losses remained high but Soviet bombers were able to hit both the German front line divisions and major armoured concentrations.



In the meantime, away from the Tula sector, the final deployments for the planned Operation Yaroslavl were being made.



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T53 (18 – 24 June 1942) - 11/1/2014 11:57:47 AM   
loki100


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T53 - 18-24 June 1942: “Until the Agony”

Slowly the cold of the winter, and the misery of the spring rains seemed like a period of ease as the heat built over central Russia and every movement raised clouds of dust.

At Tula, the Germans carried on with their methodical preparations. They seemed content to launch massive infantry attacks at a few strongpoints, weakening the outer Soviet defensive belt but making no real progress.


(shows the German deployments after I'd finished my reconnaissance and bombing raids)

No one, from the riflemen in the weakened front line to Stavka located at (redacted for security reasons) had any illusion this was because the Germans lacked the determination to prosecute their attack.

In the skies, the air battles continued unabated. If the German fighters were dominant, they were also outnumbered. The result was relatively heavy losses among their bombers and reconnaissance planes. Equally the VVS was able to carry out several massive bombing raids trying to disrupt the German build up of their armoured forces.

However, it was on the Larna sector that the real drama unfolded. While Stavka accepted the need to operate on the strategic defensive in 1942, there was also a view that being too passive would allow the Germans to concentrate on their chosen targets. With what seemed to be 3 Infantry and 2 Panzer Armies around Orel, they had to be weak somewhere else. A renewal of the Rostov battles was considered and rejected for the moment.

The result was the Yaroslav Offensive [1].

Vatutin's NW Front had 2 of the most experienced armies in the Soviet OOB (52 and 55) and 4 Shock was released from Stavka reserve. The goals were the liberation of Kalinin [2] and to inflict heavy losses on the German forces in this sector. At worst, it was hoped to draw off German reserves from their own offensive at Tula.

The extent of the build up and pre-attack preparations had been detected by the Germans but the initial attack still managed a degree of operational surprise.



The initial stage was a renewal of the nightly harassing raids by the U2s on the German infantry dug in along the 40 mile front from the Volga reservoir south of Kalinin to the Senezhkoye reservoir.

This time daylight brought no respite.

6 Air Army, reinforced to almost 900 planes struck again in the morning. A series of raids hammered both the German front line and detected reserve formations on the Larna and at Shkahovskaya.

In confusion as to the actual target, the Germans committed most of 5 Panzer division to try and shore up the lines held by 42 Infantry Corps.

However, they were too late, almost 200,000 men backed by 2,200 guns and yet more ground strikes fell on the 268 Infantry Division. Outnumbered 8-1, and with their reserves and artillery disrupted by the Soviet air attacks, they fell back abandoning their long prepared defensive positions [3].




(Elements of 4 Shock breaching the German defensive lines)


In terms of overall numbers, I have managed to reach my target of 8 million men and am close to 100,000 guns (if there is one thing I have learned from Oshawatt, its that you can never have too many guns). Given the depth of my reserves, I can absorb an awful lot of losses and still recreate my front line armies.



Discussion

Thought it might be useful to use that set piece attack to explore the impact of pre-attack air operations.

I hit the Germans with 2 raids. The first was their usual night time visit by the local U2s.



As you can see, that disrupted 67 elements, mostly various artillery pieces. This was followed in by a large day time raid that disrupted another 57 (most the damage done by the Il-2s). I also bombed one of the potential reserve formations (I hadn't spotted the others)

I then did a pre-attack bombardment from some artillery brigades I raised a while back (this did no damage). The final attack was devastating.



For comparison I then reran that final attack but without the air attacks.



Given the randomness of the combat system, I realise that one instance is not enough, but I think some things are clear. The German base value in the second attack is higher and they have 600 more elements 'ready'. My start numbers are much the same in each case.

Its clear in the second instance the random rolls went in the German favour 450 went to 611 compared to 421-301 and against me 449-745 compared to 448-1267. But, if my CV had only gone to 745 in the first attack, I'd have still won the battle.

Not convincing proof, but enough to convince me that if an attack really matters, ground attacks in advance certainly improve your chances.

[1] – Named after one of the Princes of Tver who managed to rally early Russian resistance to the Mongols. He set in train a series of victories that threatened to reduce Moscow to a secondary power. This did not end well for Tver … after all Ivan the Terrible had to start his career somewhere.

[2] – I'm a little worried at the VP situation and retaking a few cities in the north west may give me some head room to absorb any losses in the south/centre.

[3] – I don't think there is any reason to create a lot of Infantry Corps this early but I wanted some. My view is they are not much use on the defence, as, unless it is a critical location, the Germans can go around them. They are for attacks, and as here, I'd managed to stack the equivalent of 54 CV into 2 hexes, enough to breach a level 3 fort. This also seemed to be the best use of my relatively few Gds Infantry divisions. There is a similar formation in reserve in the South.

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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942) - 11/1/2014 1:33:30 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

In my admittedly limited experience with WITE, playing either side,
it seems that the German and/or Soviet air forces may take some losses,
but basically neither side can stop the other from performing its core
bombing and ground support missions. I don't know how that compares to
historical but I assume it isn't right.

As above I don't know how that compares to historical, nor in game terms if it was always helpful.
I'd be interested to hear from more veteran players about these issues.


133. Reworked the rules for Interception Air Doctrine.
Previously it was impossible to scramble more than 50-70 fighters, whether there were 100, or 200, or 300 incoming aircraft,
regardless of doctrine settings. Sometimes higher doctrine setting could result in worse CAP than lower value.
Under new rules, the game will try to scramble as much as 50% of the number of incoming aircraft when set to 100,
100% when set to 200, etc. However it will be getting progressively harder to scramble more than 25%, 50% and 75% of
the desired number of aircraft,
with each step requiring to pass one leader air skill test.

This is a MASSIVE change that will have major impact on the airwar.

People carefully read the change log.



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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942) - 11/1/2014 1:48:59 PM   
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Bombing target hexes before the attack works dispite allot of people saying it does not.

It can be the little edge that pushes the numbers from a lose to a win.

The attack you won reduced the fort value from 3 to 0 and the one you lost from 3 to 2.

Hvy atry will have a greater impact dropping forts as it should under .08.

So as SHC building a few 1000 hvy guns will be more important then building a million mortars.

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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942) - 11/1/2014 2:55:35 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Bombing target hexes before the attack works dispite allot of people saying it does not.

It can be the little edge that pushes the numbers from a lose to a win.

The attack you won reduced the fort value from 3 to 0 and the one you lost from 3 to 2.

Hvy atry will have a greater impact dropping forts as it should under .08.

So as SHC building a few 1000 hvy guns will be more important then building a million mortars.


I agree that the gain is on the margins. What interested me in that instance was the second time it was clear that my command rolls were less effective but I'd have still won due to the bombing routines, so its a sort of insurance policy.

First time the fort was level 2 when the attack went in so that was similar (I've been using the slower combat resolution settings as I'm not exactly attacking a lot and it can be very informative). So the drop 2----0 was the result of the retreat.

Again, from this process of observation, mortars do seem to inflict a lot of disruption hits which makes them valuable - it also reflects the real Soviet OOB at this phase when they substituted masses of mortars as they had a major bottleneck in artillery production.

About the air war. Is the relatively low response to an enemy incursion the reason at the moment why we are effectively both winning on our own turn and losing on the other. In my turn, I can send in a lot of air units, both fighters and bombers and swamp any axis response. SigUp reports much the same in my turn that I commit much less than he does - which given the qualitative difference in our fighters is a recipe for disaster?

Sounds like the 1.08 version will play more intuitively - ie what you think should be going on is what is actually going on? Good to drop some of the more obtuse routines that otherwise constitute effective use of the air war.

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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942) - 11/1/2014 6:49:16 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Bombing target hexes before the attack works dispite allot of people saying it does not.

It can be the little edge that pushes the numbers from a lose to a win.

The attack you won reduced the fort value from 3 to 0 and the one you lost from 3 to 2.

Hvy atry will have a greater impact dropping forts as it should under .08.

So as SHC building a few 1000 hvy guns will be more important then building a million mortars.



About the air war. Is the relatively low response to an enemy incursion the reason at the moment why we are effectively both winning on our own turn and losing on the other. In my turn, I can send in a lot of air units, both fighters and bombers and swamp any axis response. SigUp reports much the same in my turn that I commit much less than he does - which given the qualitative difference in our fighters is a recipe for disaster?

Sounds like the 1.08 version will play more intuitively - ie what you think should be going on is what is actually going on? Good to drop some of the more obtuse routines that otherwise constitute effective use of the air war.


It will be historical, as in the GHC player can mass the LW and keep air superiority in any given area. But SHC will have air superiority over the rest of the front.

.01 - .07 unhistorical but WAD

.08 historical and WAD.




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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942) - 11/2/2014 4:56:45 AM   
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The Luftwaffe lost air superiority on all fronts by the end of the war.

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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942) - 11/2/2014 8:20:36 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

The Luftwaffe lost air superiority on all fronts by the end of the war.


Yes, but not in 42 or 43.

Which we know can easly happen without house rules.

unhistorical.


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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942) - 11/3/2014 11:55:14 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

The Luftwaffe lost air superiority on all fronts by the end of the war.


Yes, but not in 42 or 43.

Which we know can easly happen without house rules.

unhistorical.



all in all sounds a lot better, at this stage in the war all the VVS could do was not to lose air superiority unless the Germans really put in a sustained effort. The Voronezh battles at the start of Blau are informative in that the VVS just could manage even a semblance of resistance due to the concentration of German airpower.

It wasn't till Kursk that they could actually stand toe to toe with the Luftwaffe ... at the cost of horrendous losses but the Germans never gained air control - either offensive or defensive - in 1943, if the Soviets were prepared to match them.

Be interesting to see the impact of more AA generated attrition. SigUp seems to have spent a lot of time making sure each of his Pzr divisions has attached AA and that is already causing me rather painful losses.

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Post #: 261
T54: 25 June – 1 July 1942 - 11/3/2014 11:56:28 AM   
loki100


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T54: 25 June – 1 July 1942: “I like a look of Agony”

The final week of June saw the return of sweeping mobile warfare. No longer were gains or losses counted in kilometres as both sides struggled for small advantage on a narrow front. This time the German spearheads struck 150 km deep into Southern Russia breaching the middle section of the Don.


(this is before my recon and response)

Stavka had been misled by the apparent build up at Tula as it became clear, that at least 6 Pzr Corps and 4 Infantry Corps had been rapidly deployed behind the Aidar. The resulting Derkul pocket trapped 9, 18 and 54 armies and portions of 61 Army.


Soviet troops in the Derkul pocket await their fate

While their opening blow may have fallen on an unexpected sector, Stavka had the reserves to recover. Southern Front's 16 and 38 Armies fell back behind the Don and South West Fronts 12 Army deployed to guard the Don crossings at Svoboda. Soviet positions to the north of the main spearhead were rapidly filled out by reinforcements from Stavka Reserve including armour and units of the newly raised Voronezh Front.


Tank crews digging in to their new positions

The Khoper was covered by a hastily organised operational group drawn from the reserves at Saratov. To the south, the Trans-Caucasus Front's 60 and 40 Armies took up a defence line along the Chir and Tsymla rivers while 61 Army held the old positions protecting the Donets crossings. Further reserves, released from the Caucasus were added to the formations in the Stalingrad sector.



Although the Germans had spotted and exploited one of the weak links in the Soviet defences, they had also committed the bulk of their armour to a sector with poor communications and supply lines. Reconnaissance indicated that one Panzer army was embroiled in the Larna battles and another still in reserve around Orel.

To Stavka, it was clear that gaining control of the Don crossings at Svoboda and the rail from Bobrov to Talovaya were critical if they were to be able to sustain their offensive.



Given the gap between the armour and their infantry support, it was estimated that it would take 3-4 weeks for the Germans to eliminate the Derkul pocket and be able to support the German armour. This presented a vital chance for the Soviets to regain their balance and to make the German Panzers pay a high price for their gains. Even as fresh formations moved into the Bobrov-Borisoglebsk defence line the VVS struck the first counterblow.

Given the importance of preventing the Germans reinforcing their offensive, it was decided to maintain the Yaroslavl offensive. 52 Army quickly occupied positions the Germans had abandoned on the south side of the Volga reservoir and 4 Shock pushed towards the Lama even as fresh reinforcements were moved up. The VVS continued to pound the German front line and identified reserve formations.



The possibility of an offensive in the Tula sector was discussed, but for the moment, Stavka wanted to keep those reserve formations available in case they were needed in the South.

Both sides suffered heavy losses. The Germans lost nearly 5,000 men, 35 tanks and 110 planes. Soviet losses were just under 45,000 men, 100 tanks and 270 planes.

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Post #: 262
RE: T54: 25 June – 1 July 1942 - 11/3/2014 1:08:38 PM   
jwolf

 

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No more boring mud turns now, that's for sure. 

I'm very interested to see how this offensive will play out.  I think you're right that the RR crossing at Svoboda is key (assuming the Germans don't just capture Voronezh itself outright).  The German units across the Don are indeed in a supply dead zone as you said.  But I assume they were well topped off with fuel for at least one more turn.  They'll need infantry support pretty soon and the question is how fast SigUp can get some infantry over the river.  I think he can clean out all or nearly all of the pocket in one turn, but that would commit all his infantry in the area.  In any case, your title "I like a look of agony" is certainly appropriate.

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Post #: 263
RE: T54: 25 June – 1 July 1942 - 11/3/2014 7:32:50 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

No more boring mud turns now, that's for sure. 

I'm very interested to see how this offensive will play out.  I think you're right that the RR crossing at Svoboda is key (assuming the Germans don't just capture Voronezh itself outright).  The German units across the Don are indeed in a supply dead zone as you said.  But I assume they were well topped off with fuel for at least one more turn.  They'll need infantry support pretty soon and the question is how fast SigUp can get some infantry over the river.  I think he can clean out all or nearly all of the pocket in one turn, but that would commit all his infantry in the area. 


In an odd way its nice not to be looking at the same area of the map all the time. I'm really not sure how effective this choice was, the conservative version would have been to take out my forces west of the Don and then stop and reassess. I think that SigUp really needs to get that rail junction or will have problems, but then I've been surprised before at his very methodical planning for big operations.

My logic for the infantry is it'll take one turn (maybe a bit more) to clear out the pocket, one turn up to the Don, one to cross it, thats quite a long time for the Pzrs to operate in an exposed position with dodgy supply lines - I must confess I'm drawing some hope from 821Bobo's current battles in a similar sector - realise that is happening a bit later in the year.

I think he potentially has one Pzr army/3 mot/pzr corps uncommitted. I'm assuming one Pzr Army, presumably the one that starts with AGN (4 Panzer?) is tied up in my activities on the Lama. I'm not sure what a single Pzr Army can do, guess it could try to force the Don around Voronezh, but there are some nasty surprises lurking around there.

Equally, while I'd rather sit back, if he weakens the Moscow - Orel defense I'm in a position to take some advantage. I'm not keen on spending too many APs on Inf Corps this early, but I have formations like and 1 and 3 Shock there that would give me very strong line rifle corps and with component divisions that would convert to Gds after a couple of victories.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf
In any case, your title "I like a look of agony" is certainly appropriate.


ah, the Empress of gloom, Emily Dickinson. If you ever need a depressing line you can find it somewhere in her works. She wrote the classic line of regret for something you have done (and know there is no way to make up for it) ... "good morning midnight, I'm coming home" ... the rest of that poem being equally grim.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 11/3/2014 8:36:16 PM >


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RE: T54: 25 June – 1 July 1942 - 11/3/2014 7:58:53 PM   
jwolf

 

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I think you're counting on too many turns for his infantry before they'll join their armored brothers along or across the Don.  But it should make for an exciting period in the war for us armchair generals on the sidelines.    My only regret is that SigUp is still in early spring in his AAR so I can't get his take on this critical part of the war or at least not at the same time.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 265
RE: T54: 25 June – 1 July 1942 - 11/4/2014 5:51:26 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

I think you're counting on too many turns for his infantry before they'll join their armored brothers along or across the Don.  ....


My logic is that to get across behind Boguchar, they need one turn to reduce the pocket, its about 10 hexes then to the Don so that is another and the turn they cross the Don they won't get much further?

I'm expecting some pressure between Svoboda and Voronezh next turn, he is close enough for infantry to move up and attack?

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RE: T54: 25 June – 1 July 1942 - 11/4/2014 9:36:34 AM   
Peltonx


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Infantry will get close to 16 Mp's withen 10 hexes of railheads.

As long as GHC is withen 20 hexes of a rail head they will have 30-35 MP's.

Fuel drops will keep MoT units about 20 past 20 hexes and if he was smart
he would have hold one PZ Corp withen HQBU range so he could follow up his
first thrust with a 2nd.

Skilled GHC players generally will have 3 PZ Corp ( 1 all MoT) punch a hole, with several high morale inf Corp push through
and 1 PZ Corp in reserve that does a HQBU the turn of break though.

Turn 1 3 PZ Corp punch hole, one pz Corp does HQBU and fuel drops to MoT Corp.
Turn 2 MoT and reserve Corp at full MP's, the 2 low MP Corp widen flanks and push some, high morale infantry move up supporting flanks and finally the 2 high MP pz Corp push deeper east.

Not sure if he was set up right but if he was you be toast at this pt.

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Post #: 267
RE: T54: 25 June – 1 July 1942 - 11/16/2014 8:30:16 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Infantry will get close to 16 Mp's withen 10 hexes of railheads.

As long as GHC is withen 20 hexes of a rail head they will have 30-35 MP's.

Fuel drops will keep MoT units about 20 past 20 hexes and if he was smart
he would have hold one PZ Corp withen HQBU range so he could follow up his
first thrust with a 2nd.

Skilled GHC players generally will have 3 PZ Corp ( 1 all MoT) punch a hole, with several high morale inf Corp push through
and 1 PZ Corp in reserve that does a HQBU the turn of break though.

Turn 1 3 PZ Corp punch hole, one pz Corp does HQBU and fuel drops to MoT Corp.
Turn 2 MoT and reserve Corp at full MP's, the 2 low MP Corp widen flanks and push some, high morale infantry move up supporting flanks and finally the 2 high MP pz Corp push deeper east.

Not sure if he was set up right but if he was you be toast at this pt.


yep, that is a pretty accurate summary, add to which 10% of my front line strength evaporated and we get the next update ...

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Post #: 268
T55-56: 2 - 15 July - 11/16/2014 8:34:32 PM   
loki100


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T55-56: 2 - 15 July: "Midsummer ... in the Mind"

The start of July saw political and military disasters that rivalled the losses of 1941. The bulk of 4 armies were destroyed in the Derkul pocket and this was followed by the loss of most of 16 Army that had fallen back across the Don. In 2 short weeks, 3 armies of the Southern Front had been destroyed and 2 from the Trans-Caucasus Front badly damaged.

Worse was the political damage and the resulting implications. The Derkul region had been the last corner of the Ukraine held by Soviet forces, so the Soviet state was reduced to holding the centre of Russia itself with the long line of the Volga now threatened by the Germans [1].


(read as: We must defend the Mother Volga – historically one of the Stalingrad posters but it seems to fit this situation)

Losses in the two encirclements, plus massive desertions saw the Red Army lose almost 10% of its effective forces, as Stavka struggled to find a new defensive line [2].




This gives some idea of how much I've just had to give up to try and recover manpower. As below, SigUp suspended his offensive for one turn which is quite a loss to him given the relatively short period he has in the Summer of 1942 to inflict real damage.


[1] – in reality the loss of direct control over the Ukraine was one of a number of reasons why Soviet morale fell apart in the Summer of 1942, it also offers a way to rationalise the consequences of the new patch.
[2] – SigUp agreed not to attack on T56 as I had to pull back radically in an attempt to recover the strength of my units that had been in contact. Of importance, I've had to stop trying to contest the rail line at Bobrov, which I think was my last chance to ensure his crossing of the Don was hampered by poor supply.

Comments;

The new patch is great but be careful about applying it to an active phase of the war. The key problem is that it vastly improves the swapping routine, removing a lot of stuff and updating with better versions, but at the moment units in contact can only grow to 60% of TOE. Even with a turn of no fighting, my front line strength has dropped from 8,000,000 to 7,300,000 and then back to 7,500,000. Of these, roughly 430,000 are combat losses, but I recruit 100,000 men a turn so my numbers should be around 7,750k-8,000k. There is a post in the 1.08 discussion thread that shows this in more detail.

The good thing is that it has removed some older stuff from my TOEs to replace them by more modern weapons sitting in my production pools, such as




(this shows a T-70 undergoing field repairs, I like it that almost everyone is carrying out a highly technical repair task, apart from the bloke with the big hammer – especially given how light the armour was on the T-70).



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by loki100 -- 11/16/2014 9:36:21 PM >


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RE: T55-56: 2 - 15 July - 11/16/2014 8:59:33 PM   
M60A3TTS


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If there is a way to do it, and SigUp would agree, I'd look to restore your NM setting from 95 to 100. A 38 base morale is just brutal now.

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