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1.08 WITE ERRATA

 
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1.08 WITE ERRATA - 11/24/2014 11:31:29 AM   
Update


Posts: 122
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		I mentioned in the WITW-forum that the TOE(OB) of WITE has quite a few mistakes and appreviations when it comes to ground unit compositions. Now I decided to start posting, as time permits, my notes on the German subject and, naturally,Finnish. I know that I am most likely to receive quite a lot of FLAK (pun intended) but I hope that, instead of just screaming "You are wrong", the critics would also point out the mistakes (there surely are some)and site the relevant source.
I have used the original German documents (from NARA-files) and also the published research of such experts as Dr. Leo Niehorster (German World War II Organizational Series), a sample is found here: http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/41_organ_army/_41_org_army.htm
along with some other internet and paper sources. Finnish units will be corrected from Finnish language sources, of course.
There will be, especially in these first postings, units that are not to be found in WITE units listings due to them missing. I will get to those corrections ASAP. Just take it as needed units not modelled in WITE.


_____________________________

Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army.

Attributed to Josef Stalin, 1948.
Post #: 1
RE: 1.08 WITE ERRATA - 11/24/2014 12:00:21 PM   
Update


Posts: 122
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		Here is the first unit posting: Jäger Division TOE(OB).

Sorry, Deleted it. Will get back later with a fix.

< Message edited by Pertti -- 11/25/2014 10:40:46 AM >

_____________________________

Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army.

Attributed to Josef Stalin, 1948.

(in reply to Update)
Post #: 2
RE: 1.08 WITE ERRATA - 11/24/2014 12:05:54 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		Add one more step to the process when you upload the file. Put your word file into a zip, then rename the zipped file .txt and you should be able to preserve your layout.

You can edit your post, delete the current upload and save, then edit again and add a new upload and you're good to go.

Jim

_____________________________


(in reply to Update)
Post #: 3
RE: 1.08 WITE ERRATA - 11/25/2014 9:15:39 AM   
HOTEC

 

Posts: 425
Joined: 11/23/2013
Status: offline 		Only portions of the KStN remain after the destruction of the military archives at Postdam in April 1945. So, a few scholars delicated to re-organize the KStN through interviews, memoirs and archives. A cosmic size of others just copy in faith. Apart from the best educated guesses, nothing for the compositions are certain, officially.

Leo W.G. Niehorster's is good but up to 1943. For covering the whole period, George F. Nafziger's is a good reference but not detailed as Leo's. The composition of Reconnaissance Battalion in late stage of war is unclear but may be supplemented by Pier Paolo Battistelli's Panzer Divisions: The Eastern Front 1944-45. Nigel Askey is good too but up to end of 1941.

Panzer Division is a mixed type unit in terms of mechanized and motorized compositions. There are only 32 slots available including 1 mandatory slot for support ground element. They are not enough to hold a full Panzer Division in accordance with the KStN and its variant. It is either to have trading off some or taking away from the main body but putting them as the attached unit. (Naming these attachments are headache - by commander's name as kampfgruppe or the number of regiment of the division. 32 is a computer number. Perhaps, we have to wait the popularity of 64 bits in market to have the increase of slots.) In light of this restriction, the compositions (the number and type) in some Panzer Divisions as shown are quite improvising by choice. As there are some new ground elements for the kind reconnaissance, infantry heavy weapon in 1.08, the composition in attached units are certainly enriched.


By the way, when FLAK-ed, what is preferrable ammo to fire - the Proximity type or Direct-impact type?

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 4
RE: 1.08 WITE ERRATA - 11/25/2014 9:43:29 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pertti

I mentioned in the WITW-forum that the TOE(OB) of WITE has quite a few mistakes and appreviations when it comes to ground unit compositions. Now I decided to start posting, as time permits, my notes on the German subject and, naturally,Finnish. I know that I am most likely to receive quite a lot of FLAK (pun intended) but I hope that, instead of just screaming "You are wrong", the critics would also point out the mistakes (there surely are some)and site the relevant source.
I have used the original German documents (from NARA-files) and also the published research of such experts as Dr. Leo Niehorster (German World War II Organizational Series), a sample is found here: http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/41_organ_army/_41_org_army.htm
along with some other internet and paper sources. Finnish units will be corrected from Finnish language sources, of course.
There will be, especially in these first postings, units that are not to be found in WITE units listings due to them missing. I will get to those corrections ASAP. Just take it as needed units not modelled in WITE.



Info would be helpful to WitE 2.0 I am sure.


_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to Update)
Post #: 5
RE: 1.08 WITE ERRATA - 11/25/2014 9:56:55 AM   
Update


Posts: 122
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		Burns: Thanks for the instructions. I am starting to feel my age when trying to deal with these dang contraptions called computers.

HOTEC: You are absolutely right about the Panzer problems. 32 slots is not enought to cover COMBAT troops within pazer divisions. When I started to go through these, I realized that I have to be somewhat creative in the way I list the components. Hopefully WITE 2.0 will fix the problem. One solution would be to build the divisions with it subordinate units (Rgt, Bn, etc) and put the actual unit lists within these. Kind of like attachments work right now.

About documents: I always, when possible, prefer to go to the original sources. That´s why I mentioned the NARA-files which contains, among other things, the microfilmed captured GERMAN KStN-files. There are pretty much most of the theoretical compositions of the different divisions and Heerestruppen (Higher HQ troops). So, it is possible to fix the TOE(OB) part of WITE/WITW pretty well. (All the 1-32 different infantry Welles, standard 43 and 44 Panzer division KStN etc.)

Anyway, please use impact type of fusing, it is easier to avoid.


_____________________________

Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army.

Attributed to Josef Stalin, 1948.

(in reply to HOTEC)
Post #: 6
RE: 1.08 WITE ERRATA - 11/25/2014 2:08:02 PM   
HOTEC

 

Posts: 425
Joined: 11/23/2013
Status: offline 		Division kept the updated KStN and destroyed the previously approved. Only the military archives kept the changes in Postdam, unfortunately.

Stacking is traded off if it is subordinated instead of attachment.

(in reply to Update)
Post #: 7
RE: 1.08 WITE ERRATA - 11/25/2014 2:48:01 PM   
Update


Posts: 122
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		You are absolutely right about the Potsdam, too bad.

The subunit idea that I mentioned is not working in 1.08, It requires rewriting that part of programming, hence WITE 2.0.

The fortunate thing is that people kept files and memos that were captured by Western Allied (who knows what Russians have in their archives?) and they were stored to NARA and then, in 1960's, microfilmed.
Now these films are starting to get posted to internet in PDF-forms for all to read. And there is a lot to get from them. I attached a jpg picture of one page of these files here as sample. (YES, it seems to have worked! )

These types of documents are the ones I am referring to when talking about surviving KStN-tables.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army.

Attributed to Josef Stalin, 1948.

(in reply to HOTEC)
Post #: 8
RE: 1.08 WITE ERRATA - 11/25/2014 3:23:45 PM   
HOTEC

 

Posts: 425
Joined: 11/23/2013
Status: offline 		Yes, it works no doubt.

The collapse of German's Army was so far: refitting the existing units seemed impossible; the productions crippled by Allied bombing; lost of oil fields in Rum and Hun in terms losing their mobility.

How to get the actual strength?

(in reply to Update)
Post #: 9
RE: 1.08 WITE ERRATA - 11/25/2014 10:21:26 PM   
Steelers708

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 12/7/2010
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pertti

You are absolutely right about the Potsdam, too bad.

The subunit idea that I mentioned is not working in 1.08, It requires rewriting that part of programming, hence WITE 2.0.

The fortunate thing is that people kept files and memos that were captured by Western Allied (who knows what Russians have in their archives?) and they were stored to NARA and then, in 1960's, microfilmed.
Now these films are starting to get posted to internet in PDF-forms for all to read. And there is a lot to get from them. I attached a jpg picture of one page of these files here as sample. (YES, it seems to have worked! )

These types of documents are the ones I am referring to when talking about surviving KStN-tables.





I don't mean to be pedantic but what you're actually showing there is a Kriegsgliederung chart, a K.S.T.N chart looks like this(forgive the link for some reason I can't attach one of my own, must be doing something wrong):

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn.jpg


(in reply to Update)
Post #: 10
RE: 1.08 WITE ERRATA - 11/26/2014 4:12:55 AM   
HOTEC

 

Posts: 425
Joined: 11/23/2013
Status: offline 		The K.S.T.N. chart (some of them amended by hand) is, sort of, information explosion for too many non-combat personnel and equipment. It is hard to image that the every squad leader is firing his MP 38 in one hand and his handgun in the other, like Rambo. Subjective selection is inevitable. Ideally, the major composition of a division used in the game for each belligerent nation should come from an author so that the error(s) during selection would be cancelled out each other, hopefully. That cannot be true. So, FLAK-ing is without the end.

(in reply to Steelers708)
Post #: 11
RE: 1.08 WITE ERRATA - 11/26/2014 6:36:44 AM   
Update


Posts: 122
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		Steelers708:

I know what you mean about the difference, I was kind of expecting for somebody to point this out. Just trying to simplify things for the people, since this is not a research paper.

Personally, I think that for the purpose of this game the type of gliederung that I used in the example gives ample information about the composition of units. The REAL KStN are way too detailed for casual use, though they are exellent to check the weaponry issued etc. (WWII Day By Day-site is a nice visual presentation of these!)

Since this is a game not simulation (in the sense that things happen as in history and person has no change to make changes), I think that we need only the unit composition fo game starting date and then the German "wish-list" of things that should be in the unit. The actual composition will then be determined by game events.

Like this: 1941 start, units are pretty much full TOE. Combat etc happens. Summer 1942 the units are trying to fill up with theoretical TOE ("wish-list") of summer 1942 according what you have in your production stores. What they end up with depends on how you are succeeding during the game.
That's why, for example, the infantry division TOE calls for 36x105FH and 12x150FH since that what Germans planned but due to casualties exceeding production during winter 41/42 they could only give full compliment at that time to units involved to southern push to Stalingrad and Caucasus.

_____________________________

Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army.

Attributed to Josef Stalin, 1948.

(in reply to Steelers708)
Post #: 12
RE: 1.08 WITE ERRATA - 12/2/2014 4:45:18 AM   
Naughteous Maximus


Posts: 301
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		I think the radius for some of the soviet aircraft are wrong. I see some planes with double-digits, other's with triple-digits.

< Message edited by Naughteous Maximus -- 12/2/2014 5:53:07 AM >

(in reply to Update)
Post #: 13
RE: 1.08 WITE ERRATA - 12/2/2014 5:50:52 AM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

I think the radius for some of the soviet aircraft are wrong. I see some planes with double-digits, other's with triple-digits.
Should be fixed in 1.08.01

(in reply to Naughteous Maximus)
Post #: 14
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