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Issuing Complex Orders? - 11/30/2014 5:10:02 PM

raventhefuhrer

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Hello, I was wondering if it's possible to 'link' or queue up commands for units?

For example, can I tell a unit to move to a bridge and begin the process to blow it up as soon as he arrives? As opposed to sending him there, and making him wait 15 minutes doing nothing while my command cycle flips over? Or alternatively, can I tell a unit to blow a bridge and then move once finished? Alternatively, I've had a situation where my command cycle is 29 minutes, I tell a unit to blow a bridge, and then on my second turn the bridge is blown and he spends 28 minutes idle until my next cycle comes.

Another example, could I tell a unit to hold somewhere (for example the edge of a town) and then automatically displace at a certain point, to a location of my choosing? Right now I have the problem where I'll put a unit on the edge of a town, and then if I want to move him I need to wait for my command cycle, issue an order, and then wait 30+ minutes for him to receive the order and begin moving. By then it's usually too late and he gets overrun.

Just trying to look for ways to fine tune my battleplan a bit more.

< Message edited by raventhefuhrer -- 11/30/2014 6:15:20 PM >

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 11/30/2014 5:39:06 PM

TheWombat_matrixforum

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I believe stuff like this is slated for the next iteration of the game system, Southern Front or whatever it's called. I know it's been talked about.

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 11/30/2014 6:09:56 PM

CapnDarwin

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Multiple state orders is the #1 item on the list for 2.1. We are looking at 3 to 5 waypoints were the order can be set and case sensitive SOPs can be set or adjusted. This will be your Move Deliberate to X, blow bridge, move to Y and hold. Type of orders.

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OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 11/30/2014 6:52:40 PM

raventhefuhrer

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That's great.

Right now the biggest issue I have with the game is that control of my units isn't streamlined enough or versatile enough, so I'm glad that you seem to recognize this and are taking steps to improve it.

I would also ask, is reduction in wait time for unit responses being contemplated? For example, an idle tank platoon that I issue an order to won't move for 30-40 minutes. Or could you give me some insight as to why the wait time is so long? I understand that readiness plays a factor and everything, but in my mind a tank should hear their orders on the radio and move out within a few minutes. Likewise, Mechanized infantry should just need a few minutes to yell for everyone to jump back into the Bradley and take off to where ever they need to go. Obviously if they're actively engaged with the enemy in combat at close range this is one thing, but this isn't always the case.

Also, do units respond quicker if their headquarters is closer to them?

< Message edited by raventhefuhrer -- 11/30/2014 7:55:19 PM >

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 11/30/2014 7:26:56 PM

Alchenar

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e: e-war is a thing. But besides seeing on the C3 tab that Ewar is 'high' it's really unclear what specific effect that has on anything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

Multiple state orders is the #1 item on the list for 2.1. We are looking at 3 to 5 waypoints were the order can be set and case sensitive SOPs can be set or adjusted. This will be your Move Deliberate to X, blow bridge, move to Y and hold. Type of orders.

The first mission of the US campaign has two issues that illustrate the problem of this not yet being a feature:

1) if you want to blow up any bridges as initial orders then your guys sit about for half an hour before you can issue new orders to them, after which it's likely another 25 minutes before they start to act on them. Any time you want to blow up a bridge it's likely you want your unit to start withdrawing the moment it's done, so a 55 minute wait before they start moving is excruciating.

2) Your artillery shows up in waves between command cycles. Stacked on the same hex.

Here is what I find happens: Unit A arrives, defaults to on-call > Fires, Moves > Soviet AI starts plotting counter-battery fire > Unit B arrives on the hex unit A was on > Unit B dies when the shells start falling.

So in addition to complex orders, we really really really need the ability to issue initial orders to units before they arrive on the field.

< Message edited by Alchenar -- 11/30/2014 8:32:26 PM >

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 11/30/2014 7:27:17 PM

budd

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i'm starting to come around on the order delay thing being a problem. Not in all instances, but when a unit is in screen mode which i've been paying particular attention too. So much so that i'm gong to do another install pre-2.06 and compare. I usually just chalk things up to chaos of war and work around it, but the order delay in screen mode while playing with limited orders is getting a little frustrating. I've been trying to get in front of things happening by anticipating and giving orders early. Having a unit already in screen mode with no enemies in its LOS and giving it bug out orders and plotting the waypoints pretty much the opposite way of the oncoming enemies and having the turn play out and having enemy units enter LOS and go toward my unit one hex at a time until there on top of it and having my unit stay there the whole time until wiped out because the order time to move hasn't arrived yet, remember this unit is already in screen mode and the enemy ends up in the same hex without my unit moving.This is also an HQ unit. I'm going to see if i have a save and rerun it a few times to see if it changes. This particular instance was very frustrating. I would be curious what others think about this. I've played about 10 battles so far under 2.06 just curious what other people's opinions are who have logged more play time.

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 11/30/2014 7:43:00 PM

Mad Russian

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Check the unit information tab. It tells you when they will execute their next order. That can give you the insight you may be looking for.

The reasons for order activation are numerous. No order in real life is activated the moment it's given. Some of them have tremendous delays. Mostly do to the readiness of the unit to activate any new order it gets. So, we have continually worked at tweaking that time between what could be excessive in real life terms to being a PITA in game terms.

That is a fine line to balance on but we are trying.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 11/30/2014 8:34:22 PM

budd

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I understand what your saying and appreciate all the effort toward balancing tough issues. I tried to replicate the situation that frustrated me and it's happened more than once. I'm aware of the order execution times in the unit field.

This HQ unit just finished blowing the bridge and was in screen mode prior to the top picture which is taken after i give it deliberate move orders, the LOS overlay is on, this unit's preferred stand off range is 3 hexes.It is 432 and the next unit action is 507.

Second shot. Unit hasn't moved, enemy has entered its preferred stand off range and the unit is taking fire. it's 501, next action at 502.The unit is in good defensive terrain, but shouldn't the unit be moving off?

third shot is 6 minutes later, in the next instance the unit is dead without ever moving. Also the Abraham unit at the end of the red fire line was also in screen and given an order to to moved away from enemy, it gets hit with artillery fire and takes ATGM fire and only ends up moving away 1 hex north after being reduced to 1 strength and retreating.Stand off range 5 hexes, yes it is in good defensive terrain.

Maybe units in screen are just holding on to long in good defensive terrain. Interested in others opinion on the matter.

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 12/1/2014 9:25:07 PM

istari6

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I think I'm seeing the same thing in 2.06. Units with Screen orders are waiting too long, if they're in good terrain to start with. M3A1 Bradley Scouts on Screen are waiting until T-80BVs are 1 hex away, then failing to displace before getting blasted. Don't recall them being quite so "sticky" in previous versions. I know the OTS team is trying to walk a very difficult balance in getting the AI to make rational decisions under different Order types. Perhaps Recon units can use the former Screen logic pre 2.06?

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 12/1/2014 10:24:48 PM

cbelva

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quote:

ORIGINAL: **budd**

i'm starting to come around on the order delay thing being a problem. Not in all instances, but when a unit is in screen mode which i've been paying particular attention too. So much so that i'm gong to do another install pre-2.06 and compare. I usually just chalk things up to chaos of war and work around it, but the order delay in screen mode while playing with limited orders is getting a little frustrating. I've been trying to get in front of things happening by anticipating and giving orders early. Having a unit already in screen mode with no enemies in its LOS and giving it bug out orders and plotting the waypoints pretty much the opposite way of the oncoming enemies and having the turn play out and having enemy units enter LOS and go toward my unit one hex at a time until there on top of it and having my unit stay there the whole time until wiped out because the order time to move hasn't arrived yet, remember this unit is already in screen mode and the enemy ends up in the same hex without my unit moving.This is also an HQ unit. I'm going to see if i have a save and rerun it a few times to see if it changes. This particular instance was very frustrating. I would be curious what others think about this. I've played about 10 battles so far under 2.06 just curious what other people's opinions are who have logged more play time.

You are making my job easier. I am an advocate for a light trigger for units in screen. When a unit enters the standoff range of a unit in screen, I want to see my unit withdraw back to keep the distance. That would solve some of the problems you are seeing. We had it prior to 2.06. HOWEVER, some of the players on several different forums were complaining rather loudly that units were bugging out too fast in screen. They wanted their units to sit around when they spotted the enemy, shoot off a few rounds, and then before being overrun bug out. The problem, while they are sitting around trying to decide whether to shoot or not, the enemy gets too close and, well, you have seen the results. I argued against this change, but the players won out over my concerns. I did warn them that there would be people not happy with seeing their units get overrun. Units do pull back in screen, just not fast enough for my tastes. And yes some do get overrun.

The situation you are describing is what screen should be for. Getting units out of trouble before they are overrun. They can shoot up until their standoff threshold is reach, and then they should pull back. It you want them to stand and fight, give them a hold order.

As someone who has worked in a battalion/brigade command post (TAC), I can tell you that there is a delay from the time you give an order to move, and when the unit actually starts to carry out that command. To cover situations when it is impractical to give commands, units have SOPs and battle drills. IMHO that is what screen should be doing for you. And with the orders delay it is not easy to "anticipate" when to give them orders to pull back. Right now, FPRS is limited in the area of SOPs. We realize that and hopefully we can change that as we develop the engine. Having the limitations that we have now, it is hard to balance to make it do everything that everyone wants to do. The powers that be have had to make some decisions. Not everyone will like the decision. I am one of them. If we can introduce the limited SOPs to the orders in Southern Storm, that should go help quite a bit.

You feedback is invaluable to us. We appreciate all your comments.

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 12/1/2014 10:54:44 PM

Mad Russian

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For the record I'm another supporter of Screen orders being activated quickly.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 12/1/2014 11:15:34 PM

CapnDarwin

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I am working a few minor tweaks to recon and units using screen to make them a little more prone to scooting if under duress. Won't be perfect and as Charles and Mad Russian have pointed out, we won't be able to really make it work for everyone until we redo the orders and SOP system for 2.1. The new system will give players a bit more control on how brave/foolish certain units are in the face of fire/losses.

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OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 12/1/2014 11:22:58 PM

raventhefuhrer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

For the record I'm another supporter of Screen orders being activated quickly.

Good Hunting.

MR

Me too. Right now it seems to me that units get overrun too easily, and staging a credible fighting retreat is almost impossible.

Example, on the first US Campaign there is a small town called Holm-Seppensen (or something similar) in the bottom right of the map that overlooks a Soviet advance. I've been trying to figure out a way to have my guys fire into the Red Hordes a few times and inflict kills before pulling back to a second position, but I can't make that happen.

Using Screen makes them move in seemingly random directions without any notion of where the fallback position should be, resulting in everyone pretty much getting overrun. And if I try to move them manually after my first turn, the delay is far too long.

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 12/2/2014 12:16:28 AM

budd

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is the type of threat to the unit taken into account or can it be taken in to account.Will they just scoot from any type of enemy that enters there standoff range or is there a threat level in use? If you make any adjustments they won't affect the hold order will it? So far i think the hold order is working better in this version.

now excuse me i have to get back to a time to dance... #%#%#^##$%^$^$

< Message edited by **budd** -- 12/2/2014 1:18:13 AM >

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 12/2/2014 3:03:19 AM

cbelva

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quote:

ORIGINAL: **budd**

is the type of threat to the unit taken into account or can it be taken in to account.Will they just scoot from any type of enemy that enters there standoff range or is there a threat level in use? If you make any adjustments they won't affect the hold order will it? So far i think the hold order is working better in this version.

now excuse me i have to get back to a time to dance... #%#%#^##$%^$^$

I was talking to Rob about this very thing this evening because I was having trouble getting the AI to attack in a scenario I have been working on. The AI units would round a ridge line and see the objective that was covered with enemy units and then turn and run away. And he said there is somewhat of a fear factor coded into the game. If the AI senses that attacking would be suicide, they might withdraw to try something else. In my case they tended to "hide".

From my experience there is a threat level in use. I have seen unit retreat before armored forces, but not smaller recon units. Rob or Jim would have to explain it better than I could. My knowledge is just based on what I have seen the AI do.

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RE: Issuing Complex Orders? - 12/2/2014 3:39:30 AM

budd

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thx for the info. It's a cool concept and i can imagine how hard it would be to code an AI for that and balance it. It would be great if units in screen were able to use a threat level to decide whether to stay or go....... O sh*t thats a lot of tanks...time to go guys. Like you were saying if i want them to stay put and get pummeled i'd issue a hold order. Maybe in 2.1 we will be able to set a bug out distance for units in screen. I'm not sure i want them to flee as soon as a unit hits there stand off range either though. The trails and tribulations of developers