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Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 7:52:36 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Upfront message: I'm trying to identify issues within the air system. Do not be surprised there are / are going to be issues.. Please refrain from posting if you are planning to flame the game or the test results.. Flaming does not help:

NOTE: Strategic bombing campaign scenario is used, Allied Human, axis AI on normal, weather is RAIN

I've not used fighters AT ALL.. Not a single one on the allied side. I've used 15th USAAF two weeks and the 8th USAAF one week. These results are ofcourse not representative but I think I'm on to something that needs looking into...






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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
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RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 7:52:59 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
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From: the Netherlands
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AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
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RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 7:53:21 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
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From: the Netherlands
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AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
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RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 7:54:09 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
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_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 4
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 7:54:30 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
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_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 5
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 7:55:01 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
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From: the Netherlands
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AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 6
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 7:59:00 AM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		what's the time and date, then i'll check with real figures for the times?

http://world-war-2.info/facts/

12,000 heavy bombers were shot down in World War 2

2/3 of Allied bomber crews were lost for each plane destroyed

3 or 4 ground men were wounded for each killed

6 bomber crewmen were killed for each one wounded

Over 100,000 Allied bomber crewmen were killed over Europe

if it would help? or i'll site back and watch and stay quite

< Message edited by zakblood -- 12/6/2014 9:02:04 AM >

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
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RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 7:59:45 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Preliminary conclusions: It is possible to plaster critical sites (Berlin). Flak is not efficient (that might be an altitude thing) and bombing is very accurate, even from high altitudes. I wasn't impressed by fighter response. At best 30-40 fighters intercepted large raids and they inflicted some losses, but nothing critical...

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 8
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 8:00:19 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		This is the first two weeks of May

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to zakblood)
Post #: 9
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 8:02:15 AM   
zakblood


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Status: offline 		ah ok ty, will go off and look

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/rafhistorytimeline1944.cfm

http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/USN/LLMay44.htm

German its a bit harder

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1983/mar-apr/murray.htm

a good read is,

Case studies in the achievement of air superiority for complete listings

< Message edited by zakblood -- 12/6/2014 9:08:05 AM >

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 10
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 8:12:02 AM   
KenchiSulla


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From: the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

ah ok ty, will go off and look

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/rafhistorytimeline1944.cfm

http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/USN/LLMay44.htm

German its a bit harder

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1983/mar-apr/murray.htm


Hey Zakblood, my point is that I flew into the heart of the Reich using no fighter cover and my bombers took 3.5% losses while doing good bomb damage to the local industry. I fear that if you select a critical industry and focus on pounding it you can fairly easily collapse the German Industry (since losses are light you can keep bombing)..

I'm not claiming that this is the case but was one of my concerns with the game and my first personal experience is hinting in that direction....

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to zakblood)
Post #: 11
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 8:35:51 AM   
Helpless


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Status: offline 		Do you play with FoW on?

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RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 8:40:48 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		A question for the expert:

At what range will fighters intercept incoming raids? It looks like the band is very narrow. Groups that are within 20 miles (2 hexes) have intercepted the bombers and groups that are within 40 miles have not... This might limit the amount of intercepts?

Note that flak is not hitting much if it is flying above 22000 feet. I'll try a raid at 15000 to see what the effect is....

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 13
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 8:41:14 AM   
KenchiSulla


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From: the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Do you play with FoW on?


I've got both sides on manual now to see if I can increase the intercept count

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 14
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 8:47:40 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Woah, I've lowered the altitude of incoming raids to 15K and placed more fighter groups in the direct lane of the raid...

OUCH




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_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 15
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 8:48:00 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
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From: the Netherlands
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AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 16
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 8:48:23 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
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From: the Netherlands
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_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 17
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 8:51:20 AM   
Helpless


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Joined: 8/27/2004
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quote:

At what range will fighters intercept incoming raids? It looks like the band is very narrow. Groups that are within 20 miles (2 hexes) have intercepted the bombers and groups that are within 40 miles have not... This might limit the amount of intercepts?


There is no hardcoded range limit. If air group is in range and raid is properly detected it can be intercepted from the very distant air base. Raid losses can be very heavy when intercepted with no escorts.

quote:

Note that flak is not hitting much if it is flying above 22000 feet. I'll try a raid at 15000 to see what the effect is....


Heavy/mid flak should be quite effective at 22k.

quote:


I've got both sides on manual now to see if I can increase the intercept count


I'm asking about FoW because when it is on factory damage is an "optimistic" estimate which is much lower than actual damage. Subsequent reconning should increase the accuracy.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 18
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 9:10:57 AM   
KenchiSulla


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From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		I'll test the FLAK results further but the gap between 15k and 27k is enormous (100:3 destroyed)

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 19
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 9:57:54 AM   
jnpoint


Posts: 549
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From: Holstebro, Denmark
Status: offline 		Nice to know, Cannonfodder, that people like you tests the realistic outcomes of the game, especially because it claims to be very realistic. I don't have the insight or knowledge to test such a game. I haven't bought it yet though, still waiting to see if it is a hit among the players.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 20
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 10:10:39 AM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		i have to wait until santa drops it off, or so says the GF who is ordering it as one of my gift at xmas :(



< Message edited by zakblood -- 12/6/2014 11:14:15 AM >

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Post #: 21
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 10:13:30 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Requesting for someone to confirm test results. Flak losses drop sharply above 15k feet and above 19k feet(in other words at 20k feet you see extremely low losses






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_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to jnpoint)
Post #: 22
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 10:15:02 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jnpoint

Nice to know, Cannonfodder, that people like you tests the realistic outcomes of the game, especially because it claims to be very realistic. I don't have the insight or knowledge to test such a game. I haven't bought it yet though, still waiting to see if it is a hit among the players.


Jnpoint, I think the air system is very, very well done in this game. It's probably just a matter of tuning. I work as a Controls Engineer and the general experience is you can design a good system but tuning takes time....

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to jnpoint)
Post #: 23
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 10:15:20 AM   
zakblood


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Status: offline 		so seems flying higher is good, but bomb accuracy will be lower so more trips needed then?

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Post #: 24
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 10:16:42 AM   
KenchiSulla


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From: the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

so seems flying higher is good, but bomb accuracy will be lower so more trips needed then?


I don't think the altitude effect on bombing is noticeable but further testing is needed ofcourse....

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to zakblood)
Post #: 25
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 10:16:54 AM   
jnpoint


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From: Holstebro, Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

i have to wait until santa drops it off, or so says the GF who is ordering it as one of my gift at xmas :(




Sorry about my English, but what is GF?

(in reply to zakblood)
Post #: 26
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 10:18:30 AM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
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Status: offline 		girl friend or boss lady

she who is to be obeyed at all time, so i call her, well can't say it but was the leader of the German people in ww2

< Message edited by zakblood -- 12/6/2014 11:19:54 AM >

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RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 10:19:05 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
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From: the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Requesting for someone to confirm test results. Flak losses drop sharply above 15k feet and above 19k feet(in other words at 20k feet you see extremely low losses







I see a bit of a 1st order system in this....

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 28
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 10:25:50 AM   
Helpless


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Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		Flak fire indeed depends on the altitude so does the bombing accuracy. Flak efficiency max is indeed ~15K (depending on weather and flak placement(city or usual ground unit))

However I've seen much higher flak losses on high alt than in your example. The tricky part is that various type of damage done to the aircraft are weighted at the and before it goes to one or other category. In other words, damage done by A2A combat can contribute to the total losses, but it could be recorded as flak if damage by flak is prevailing.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 29
RE: Strategic bombing - Testing - 12/6/2014 10:28:37 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		That seems to be consistent with what I've seen so far. The battle with the highest flak losses is the one where I tweaked fighter group placement. It saw a large number of intercepts, probably leaving more bombers damaged and later destroyed by FLAK.

Following result is nice to see.. Flew the bombers at 3k towards Berlin. Not a single 88mm Gun fired.. but they got torn to bits by light flak and bomb damage was minimal...




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_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 30
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