HQ Buildup in 1.08

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

HQ Buildup in 1.08

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> HQ Buildup in 1.08

Page: [1] 2 3 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/7/2014 8:24:30 PM

Oshawott

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
Status: offline

It's a failure in my opinion. It looks more intelligent but it is even worse then the old system. It's the equivalent of muling HQs.

Following example from a game against experienced human player.

On T4 I cross the Dnepr. Always one HQ Buildup per turn. Sometimes two.

Attachment (1)

Post #: 1

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/7/2014 8:25:20 PM

Oshawott

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
Status: offline

On T5 I enlarge the bridgehead

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Oshawott)

Post #: 2

HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/7/2014 8:25:57 PM

Oshawott

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
Status: offline

On T6 I break out

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Oshawott)

Post #: 3

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/7/2014 8:27:00 PM

Oshawott

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
Status: offline

On T7 all hell breaks loose. More encirclement and a giant Bryansk pocket.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Oshawott)

Post #: 4

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/7/2014 8:27:27 PM

Oshawott

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
Status: offline

Giant pocket

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Oshawott)

Post #: 5

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/7/2014 8:29:20 PM

Oshawott

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
Status: offline

The whole HQ buildup system has nothing to do with 2nd world war. It's pure fantasy. After T7 my opponent quit out of frustration. I understand I would probably quit myself. What's the point.

I think it's time to move to a different game. War in the West here I come!

(in reply to Oshawott)

Post #: 6

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/7/2014 8:41:05 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oshawott

The whole HQ buildup system has nothing to do with 2nd world war. It's pure fantasy. After T7 my opponent quit out of frustration. I understand I would probably quit myself. What's the point.

I think it's time to move to a different game. War in the West here I come!

don't go (even to such a nearby place

) ... I really like your AARs

but yes, that is pretty silly and implausible.

do you have any feel for what the best response would have been?

_____________________________

(in reply to Oshawott)

Post #: 7

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/7/2014 9:33:26 PM

Oshawott

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
Status: offline

quote:

do you have any feel for what the best response would have been?

I think the only thing you can do is run away and set up a checkerboard. How far depends on the number of HQ buildups your opponent did. I can tell you more when I get T8 back from Pelton.

But it's just poor game design. You shouldn't be able to build up to 175% east of the Dnepr on T6. Those divisions at Bryansk pretty much all have 60% fuel left or are doing another HQ buildup. T8 would have been pure insanity.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 8

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/7/2014 10:16:33 PM

charlie0311

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline

Did you do anything "heroic" with the FBD's? ie, move them in a leapfrog manner? If I'm not clear enough, what did you do with FBD's 2 and 3?

(in reply to Oshawott)

Post #: 9

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/7/2014 11:03:48 PM

Oshawott

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
Status: offline

I did nothing unusual. Yes they are teaming up in the south but that doesn't bring much. Just at the beginning when you go through rough terrain you gain a hex or two. The problem is the 25 hex limit for HQ buildups.

Just wait for those super accurate Axis players to come up with the perfect setup for HQ buildups. It will be Stalingrad in 41 again. Looks like Mike 29 has figured it out. Apparently, he made it to Lipetsk on T10. Would be cool to get an update from him where he is on T17.

(in reply to charlie0311)

Post #: 10

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/8/2014 1:50:43 AM

timmyab

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline

I've long thought that HQ buildup could be scraped altogether. Axis logistics are plenty generous enough without it.

(in reply to Oshawott)

Post #: 11

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/8/2014 4:01:41 AM

Saper2229

Posts: 186
Joined: 3/9/2011
From: Russia
Status: offline

The Soviets player must have some expirience how to stop Germany panzers. Not line defence, only deep and strong fort hex. After 1:1=2:1 this is a hard game (1.08) for non expirience Soviets.

(in reply to timmyab)

Post #: 12

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/8/2014 4:33:49 PM

Northern Star

Posts: 1881
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline

Against you is completely useless... Against your wall of steel HQBU is not enough... It doesn't increase the CV. Maybe some napalm can be useful...

_____________________________

War in the East alpha tester

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPV9JWWtOQ0

(in reply to Saper2229)

Post #: 13

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/9/2014 12:13:49 AM

Peltonx

Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3738743

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/10/2014 5:33:24 PM >

_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to Northern Star)

Post #: 14

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/9/2014 2:46:48 PM

HITMAN202

Posts: 714
Joined: 11/10/2011
Status: offline

Pelton, my friend, your comments are correct (IMO) but you're making things a little too personal (IMO). That's what's so fun about trash talking, you can throw out strong opinions as long as you trash/thrash yourself to boot.

Oshawott, Pelton is merely criticizing your impressive skill at WITE. The best players kick ass (so to speak) on the good. It's a harsh fact of life. Outstanding Soviet players constantly guard against massive isolations. Look how smokindave stopped Pelton's dangerous pincer on Moscow; in fact fairly easily. Your opponents don't.

_____________________________

WITE is a good addiction with no cure.

(in reply to Peltonx)

Post #: 15

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/9/2014 4:26:25 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Pelton, my friend, your comments are correct (IMO) but you're making things a little too personal (IMO). That's what's so fun about trash talking, you can throw out strong opinions as long as you trash/thrash yourself to boot.

Oshawott, Pelton is merely criticizing your impressive skill at WITE. The best players kick ass (so to speak) on the good. It's a harsh fact of life. Outstanding Soviet players constantly guard against massive isolations. Look how smokindave stopped Pelton's dangerous pincer on Moscow; in fact fairly easily. Your opponents don't.

I'm sorry but I disagree. I know we are all meant to put up with Pelton's rudeness and over the top posts but that one is by far the worst I've seen. Its not trash talk - its insulting and bullying. He's driven other people off the WiTE forum as they are not prepared to put up with his insults.

If that post is allowed to stand then I'm probably off too. Lots of nice people around who its fun to interact with, learn from and disagree with. But if that sets a standard for what is deemed to be acceptable then I'm none too keen to maintain an association.

_____________________________

(in reply to HITMAN202)

Post #: 16

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/9/2014 4:52:05 PM

HITMAN202

Posts: 714
Joined: 11/10/2011
Status: offline

You misunderstood what I said. Trash talking should be humorous and expose the writer's frailties and balance the criticism(s). I agree, Pelton's blob is unwarranted and, to be frank, abusive.

I called him out and I'm sure he will apologize.

Don't stop posting. Your AAR's are awesome.

< Message edited by HITMAN202 -- 12/9/2014 6:07:38 PM >

_____________________________

WITE is a good addiction with no cure.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 17

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/9/2014 5:08:11 PM

charlie0311

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline

Ah, are we seeing the free markets at work here? ie the "invisible hand".

ps. it pleases me to be a little obscure and I don't really like to type long explanations, sooo... pm me if you would like some more.

< Message edited by charlie0311 -- 12/9/2014 6:09:18 PM >

(in reply to HITMAN202)

Post #: 18

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/9/2014 5:09:29 PM

Northern Star

Posts: 1881
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline

I am playing a Road to Leningrad pbem against the best Soviet player here in the forum: Saper.
I can say that so far HQBU is useless because he always has high cv stacks even without railing the hell out of the south like in a campaign 41.
About the offensive language of someone in the forum, no problem: there is always a little green button to press... I never used offensive language and I expect the same. Now I see no other solution than to press it.

< Message edited by Northern Star -- 12/9/2014 6:12:22 PM >

_____________________________

War in the East alpha tester

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPV9JWWtOQ0

(in reply to HITMAN202)

Post #: 19

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/9/2014 6:20:10 PM

M60A3TTS

Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline

You can also PM the board moderator, Joel Billings. He's been around a long time to be familiar with this sort of thing.

(in reply to Northern Star)

Post #: 20

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/9/2014 7:45:50 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Pelton, my friend, your comments are correct (IMO) but you're making things a little too personal (IMO). That's what's so fun about trash talking, you can throw out strong opinions as long as you trash/thrash yourself to boot.

Oshawott, Pelton is merely criticizing your impressive skill at WITE. The best players kick ass (so to speak) on the good. It's a harsh fact of life. Outstanding Soviet players constantly guard against massive isolations. Look how smokindave stopped Pelton's dangerous pincer on Moscow; in fact fairly easily. Your opponents don't.

I'm sorry but I disagree. I know we are all meant to put up with Pelton's rudeness and over the top posts but that one is by far the worst I've seen. Its not trash talk - its insulting and bullying. He's driven other people off the WiTE forum as they are not prepared to put up with his insults.

If that post is allowed to stand then I'm probably off too. Lots of nice people around who its fun to interact with, learn from and disagree with. But if that sets a standard for what is deemed to be acceptable then I'm none too keen to maintain an association.

I agree with you. Should not have to put up with it. And putting people on ignore is not the solution to it.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 21

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/9/2014 7:49:02 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Northern Star

there is always a little green button to press... I never used offensive language and I expect the same. Now I see no other solution than to press it.

That isn't a solution. The entire board can read it. Using the green button does not stop it.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to Northern Star)

Post #: 22

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/9/2014 8:55:46 PM

Northern Star

Posts: 1881
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline

I'll inform Joel and Erik about this. This behavior should not be allowed in this forum.

Edit: PMs sent

< Message edited by Northern Star -- 12/9/2014 10:12:02 PM >

_____________________________

War in the East alpha tester

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPV9JWWtOQ0

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 23

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/9/2014 10:44:59 PM

darbycmcd

Posts: 394
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline

Well, I guess I am the no-skill 10 year old who was playing Oshawott so I guess I should respond. Basically, the root problem for me, and I suspect some other players, is that HQBU is very unhistorical, in that it does not in its present incarnation model anything like offensive supply preparation on the east front. What this leads to is very unhistorical capabilities for the attacking side. What Pelton and others advocate is completely correct, the defending player should adapt to the game situation and employ counter-measures, in this case more running. But for me, I don't want to play an Eastern Front themed sandbox game, I like a more historical simulation. I want each side to have realistic capabilities so we can play around with meaningful alternatives. I think at some point in the game evolution, that has been lost to the very vocal group that just wants a good game. It isn't wrong, but I think you can see that there is very little of the historical crowd hanging out here. For example, when there was a discussion about how HQBU was going to be changed, how many times did anyone talk about historical capabilities at all? I don't remember a single time. So we end up with 25 hexes, or 250 miles, no matter the weather or conditions.... is that realistic? We don't know. Is it realistic that divisions should be able to move MORE when they have participated in stockpile operations? well we never talked about what actual units do when they do whatever HGQBU is supposed to be. The only discussion is what makes the game 'balanced' but that generally means how to make sure germany can knock the SU out of the war, and that of course is a problem because the WAR WAS NOT BALANCED.

So for me, it just becomes sort of not worth playing. I think for a guy like Pelton, who has a certain approach, the game is great when he gets to find new and exciting ways of using game mechanics to do what he always does, in this his limited understanding of military operations is not a factor, and he doesn't care (or in fact care to learn). But one of the things I have liked about Matrix games usually is that this type of gamer is in the minority, at least until now.

By the way, if the posting style that Pelton demonstrated is allowed to continue, I will stop frequenting these boards, which will probably result in fewer purchases from me (just a few, but still...). I have seen other game forums and it can get very ugly if that childish behavior is allowed to persist.

(in reply to Northern Star)

Post #: 24

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/9/2014 11:09:57 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd

I think for a guy like Pelton, who has a certain approach, the game is great when he gets to find new and exciting ways of using game mechanics to do what he always does, in this his limited understanding of military operations is not a factor, and he doesn't care (or in fact care to learn). But one of the things I have liked about Matrix games usually is that this type of gamer is in the minority, at least until now.

That's why I rarely play PBEM any more. I don't bother reading the rules with a fine tooth comb looking for exploits. Or say, in ACW2, put everything east and move. That isn't the American Civil War, that's a travesty.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to darbycmcd)

Post #: 25

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/10/2014 12:06:07 AM

darbycmcd

Posts: 394
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline

Yeah, I agree. And it is really too bad. It is interesting to me to compare the community here with WitP. That game also has some gamey exploits, for sure. But the average gamer there is more interested in avoiding them, in order to have a more... authentic (is that the word I am looking for?) experience. This community sort of got overrun by some particular folk who seem to be able to post quite often, but aren't interested in history much. When it started I thought there would be some interesting discussions with folks like yourself, El Jefe, Flav, and many others. But they seem to have drifted away. And it has hurt the game. Another example, the debate on national morale. The historical reality as demonstrated by unit performance was never considered, just what allowed the germans to attack enough... it just seems sort of a pity. I love, for example, HOI, but that isn't what I want when I play this game.

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 26

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/10/2014 12:40:44 AM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

I think Japanese players enjoy the journey they take playing the game.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to darbycmcd)

Post #: 27

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/10/2014 6:11:19 AM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

Oshawott, which HQs and units were doing HQBU each turn? Do you have this data?

edit: by the way, posting this in the AAR subforum was the best way to make sure I miss the discussion (I have email subscription of all subforums except AAR and looking for opponents). Just in case you will have more issues to report - use the technical issues or war room or main forum. Thanks

< Message edited by morvael -- 12/10/2014 7:20:00 AM >

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 28

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/10/2014 6:29:02 AM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd
Yeah, I agree. And it is really too bad. It is interesting to me to compare the community here with WitP. That game also has some gamey exploits, for sure. But the average gamer there is more interested in avoiding them, in order to have a more... authentic (is that the word I am looking for?) experience. This community sort of got overrun by some particular folk who seem to be able to post quite often, but aren't interested in history much. When it started I thought there would be some interesting discussions with folks like yourself, El Jefe, Flav, and many others. But they seem to have drifted away. And it has hurt the game. Another example, the debate on national morale. The historical reality as demonstrated by unit performance was never considered, just what allowed the germans to attack enough... it just seems sort of a pity. I love, for example, HOI, but that isn't what I want when I play this game.

I guess I'm more in the "authentic" camp as well, and never tried to abuse some rules in the game. There are many issues in WitE's subsystems, especially the unlimited rail throughput and very generous resource and truck allocations for the Axis side, which in turn make other subsystems look wrong, even those which when considered in isolation look reasonable. There are also issues with lack of incentives for certain historical tactics or strategy, namely VP for doing suboptimal things in the game, without which one can't blame players of retreating deep into Soviet Union and not fighting forward (for example). Some of these issues are not possible to address even in a big patch, but I hope WitE 2.0 will bring many improvements (as we know from WitW there will be limits on the rail system, and replacements will be also part of freight moved, not teleported from an abstract pool to units). WitE 1 is here for the fans of the East Front to enjoy until the better game will be out. I suggest partially adapting to what the rules require (you can't totally ignore the realities of the game), and finding an opponent willing to accept some house rules that you find unacceptable. That's the best way to enjoy the game IMHO, as I don't think playing AI is worth the time spent with the game.

(in reply to darbycmcd)

Post #: 29

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/10/2014 9:28:48 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

One more comment then I'll shut up.

I'm in the realistic camp but realised a long time ago that east front games tend to attract a small community of players who are (a) convinced the 'wrong' side won and (b) prioritise game play and rule exploitation over any sense (and often knowledge) of realism.

One reason I really like reading Oshawatt's AARs and take his views seriously is he seems to be both damn good at this game and aware of when competent game play slips over the edge into rules abuse.

The general advice is that if you want to play complex chess - where the only things not doable are those actively forbidden - then play with someone like minded is good. Equally if you are prepared to accept some constraints, both in the exploitation of opportunities and mindset, you may be lucky enough to play with someone like minded (an advantage I currently have with SigUp).

The problem with Pelton's post is it is explicitly designed to silence and bully those who do not share his rather individual approach and beliefs. So what will happen, is that more and more of those who take a different view to him will shut up and stop posting. As that happens more the only voices on this forum will be those whom Pelton approves of - to the detriment of the game, and the community who like this sort of game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

You misunderstood what I said. Trash talking should be humorous and expose the writer's frailties and balance the criticism(s). I agree, Pelton's blob is unwarranted and, to be frank, abusive.

I called him out and I'm sure he will apologize.

Don't stop posting. Your AAR's are awesome.

Ah. I'm really sorry, I did slightly misunderstand your post. I agree about the fun of trash talk in context. I'll never forget an epic 3 way PBEM of Revolution Under Siege. The game was good fun but I was more interested in the emails - each a perfectly judged combination of insults, propaganda and outright fabrication. But Trotsky is forever now in my mind the man who ran off in his gilded train taking the Red Army's stocks of caviar and Armenian prostitutes with him, while I still maintain to this day that I did sink the Royal Navy at Saratov.

But if that post stays unedited, then I can only see it as a measure of what is tolerable, and as such it makes this forum not a great place to be associated with.

_____________________________

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 30