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WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/7/2014 10:26:22 PM

epidemic

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I've been wanting to get into a Gary Grigsby game, but can't decide where to start.

As background, I've only been wargaming for a couple of years so have waited before diving into a Grigsby game. I own CMANO (love it and have over 200 hours in), Unity of Command (so-so), Flashpoint Campaigns Redstorm (like it, but find the air component too limited), Alea Jacta Est (like it), Frontline Road to Moscow (somewhat simplistic), and Command Ops Battles from the Bulge (love it, though I find the highly autonomous AI somewhat disconcerting).

Anyway, I keep seeing the community's devotion to Grigsby games and want to give one a try. I see that both WITE and WITP-AE are on sale right now, so they seem like a good place to start. I like the idea of a strong naval component in WITP-AE, but WITE is the newer game and so it may be more polished. I should also mention that I will probably only ever play SP against AI, if that makes a difference.

Any recommendations would be appreciated. Happy Holidays to all.

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/7/2014 10:35:35 PM

bairdlander2

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WitE is newer engine,easier to "jump" into than WitPAE.

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/7/2014 11:02:23 PM

MrsWargamer

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Well it depends on what you like.

Because WitP is clearly a naval game with a strong dose of air warfare with a garnish of land operations.

WitE is massive land battles with supporting air, and there really is no need to put much thought into anything naval.

WitW is likely somewhere in the middle, because clearly you need to understand ambib assault, but the land war is serious too, and the air war is important.

But these games are VERY detailed, and a great deal of work and thinking for the most part. It's the deepest part of the pool eh.

I think you might want to go with War in the West actually.

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/8/2014 12:40:25 AM

Bullwinkle58

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I own both AE and WitE. I've played AE and before that WITP nearly every day since late 2005. I currently have a PBEM game of AE going. I'm active in the forum, the most active on the Matrix site, every day.

I never got into WitE. Partly the design, partly me. Looking at the forum traffic it's past its peak. Much of the energy will transfer to WitW. From everything I've seen WitW fixes many of the things that made WitE problematic, especially the air war. WitW is brand new, however, premium priced, and may need a patch or two to get a final balance.

AE is a PTO game, but it also includes continental warfare in China, Burma, India, Oz, and the USSR. (And North America if you've got big, brass ones.) It is more detailed than either of the War in X games--you control air units down to individual pilots, for example, individual ships to their COs, etc. It is VERY logistics heavy, since the PTO was based on that due to geography and distance.

Matrix will take your money for any of the three. Before you buy, though, come over to the AE forum and hang out, read some AARs. The ones in the top of the stack tend to be the most active. (Capt. Mandrake writes an AAR unlike any I've ever seen.)

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/8/2014 12:40:35 AM

Wolfe1759

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By far the easiest of GG's games to get into is World at War A World Divided.

I've got all the GG games but WaW is the one I play by far the most, I'm actually quite amazed it is designed by the same person that did WITP/WITE/WITW as it is so different in terms of complexity.

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/8/2014 12:42:25 AM

Jim D Burns

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If you do get WitP AE, I recommend you install the DBB mod with the extended map and stacking limits before you dive in. It's a long intense process learning the game and DBB is put together by many of the guys who did AE originally. I view it as a patch to the games campaign and the stacking limits really improve the land game a lot.

https://sites.google.com/site/dababeswitpae/

If you�re going to invest the time to learn the game, then you might as well learn with the DBB campaign since most people play it or some variant of it these days.

Jim

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/8/2014 2:31:44 AM

epidemic

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AARs are a good idea to help choose. Thank you for the suggestion. I've started reading them. So far, based on a small sampling, the WitE/W AARs are seeming more combat-focused compared to those for WitPAE, which seem to spend a lot more time on logistics. Also the WitPAE ones seem much longer.

Is this initial impression consistent with your longer experience?

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/8/2014 2:59:39 AM

GaryChildress

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As you have observed, WitP/AE is VERY logistics oriented and games can take a few RL years to complete depending upon the scenario, the rate of turn around on turns and whether one has turns set at 1 day/turn or more. I don't know much about WitE. I owned it at one point (I think I lost it in a RL issue I had a while back). I haven't sought to reinstall WitE as it never really caught on with me. I suppose it's a matter of taste depending upon whether a person is into logistics or would rather just skip straight to the combat aspect of wargaming.

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/8/2014 12:15:27 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: epidemic

AARs are a good idea to help choose. Thank you for the suggestion. I've started reading them. So far, based on a small sampling, the WitE/W AARs are seeming more combat-focused compared to those for WitPAE, which seem to spend a lot more time on logistics. Also the WitPAE ones seem much longer.

Is this initial impression consistent with your longer experience?

AE PBEM games last for real-time years. Look at the start dates for the popular, long-running games. Some are 2011.

AE, like the PTO itself, has several phases. 1942 for Japan is rapid expansion and conquest, while for the Allies it is a case of run and survive. 1943 is fairly balanced as the USN comes on-line and various land upgrades are brought into the OOB. 1944-45 the Allies become a fearsome war machine that drives on the Home Islands with a goal of utter defeat for Japan.

However, as in all GG games, the victory conditions make it very possible for Japan to win the game, even if not the war. Auto-victory is possible if victory point ratios get too lopsided. This separation of game from war is a topic often discussed and debated in the forum.

Yes, there is a lot of logistics. A large part of the key theater was island-hopping. Japan must have petroleum to survive and it has to be carried home. I was a USN submarine officer and the sub war is the best-modeled I've ever seen. The MK14 dud problem is fully modeled and drives Allied players to drink. But the logistics is at the core of the two sides' "problems." Carrying the Allied stuff forward and defending it is a key part of the strategy. For Japan, careful planning and balancing competing demands as the noose closes is intense. The economic models don't just deliver "stuff" to be hauled though. The game models Supplies, Fuel, Oil, Resources, Light Industry, Heavy Industry, Arms Points (Japan only), Vehicle Points (Japan only), Ship-building Points (merchant and naval separate) (Japan only), Repair Points (Japan only), Engine Factories (Japan), Aircraft Factories (Japan and some Allied), and Aircraft R&D (Japan.) Managing the Japanese economy and keeping it from collapse is considered by most the hardest challenge in the game. For those who like detail and strategic, multi-year planning, it's a wargame nirvana.

In short, there is a LOT of combat in AE, but it ebbs and flows. There are combat animations which make the battles, to me, much more real than a simple text report of results. That is one thing that made WitE "cold" to me. When one of my surface TFs encounters an IJN TF, and the animation window opens to show three Kongo-class BBs facing my four heavy cruisers I sometimes feel physically sick. The battle plays out round by round, shell by shell, hit by hit. Some big battles take 20 minutes if you let them run. It's intense.

But not for everyone. AE is the mega-est of the mega-games. Not for everyone. A fair proportion of those who buy it don't ever learn it and abandon it. But if you put in the time and if you like the era and theater there's nothing like it. Given the economics of wargaming these days I doubt there will ever be another game like it. The sale price is a steal for what it delivers. IF you WANT it.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 12/8/2014 3:02:04 PM >

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/8/2014 1:38:17 PM

TulliusDetritus

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I have played both games since their release. I always tried to stay away from WitP PBEM though (a huge committment: > 1000 turns

). But did WitE PBEM (a lot of fun).

Two different universes

You have to ask yourself what do you prefer. A huge mega land conflict in which the direction of your attacks are evident. Go west (aka Berlin) if Russian, go east and destroy the Red Army as Axis. But no naval, the air war is abstracted and logistics are not really handled by the player.

Or maybe you prefer the air, naval, amphibious side of things (I do). WitP AE is the Logistical Paradise (the part of the game I like the most). Literally. As others have said DBB [mod] + extended map + stacking units limit is a good choice.

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/9/2014 10:08:43 PM

epidemic

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Thanks everyone. Your passion for these games (or simulations) is obvious. I'll keep reading AARs and watching YouTube videos of the gameplay. From what I've seen so far, the turns take a very long time to consider and then resolve. Thus, it seems like the key to understanding and enjoying them (especially WitPAE) is to adopt a thoughtful, long-term mindset. Although I started this thread saying that I'm a single-player type gamer, after reading some AARs, I could see myself being drawn to the multi-player side for something like WitPAE. There is something kind of stately and zen-like about playing out a long strategic game with a patient, thoughtful opponent over the course of a year or two.

< Message edited by epidemic -- 12/9/2014 11:09:37 PM >

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/9/2014 11:04:04 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: epidemic

Thanks everyone. Your passion for these games (or simulations) is obvious. I'll keep reading AARs and watching YouTube videos of the gameplay. From what I've seen so far, the turns take a very long time to consider and then resolve. Thus, it seems like the key to understanding and enjoying them (especially WitPAE) is to adopt a thoughtful, long-term mindset. Although I started this thread saying that I'm a single-player type gamer, after reading some AARs, I could see myself being drawn to the multi-player side for something like WitPAE. There is something kind of stately and zen-like about playing out a long strategic game with a patient, thoughtful opponent over the course of a year or two.

The email interactions and the AAR if done are a whole 'nother level to AE. As I said, if you haven't, read a few dozen pages of Cap. Mandrake's. He doesn't let the game get in the way of the good times.

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/10/2014 12:12:17 AM

epidemic

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Right your are. Less with the zen and more with the good times.

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/14/2014 2:41:16 PM

epidemic

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Thanks again to all that replied. After considering your advice and reading AARs (and watching "The Pacific" series), I bought War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition last night. I'm now getting the game set up and starting in on the manual. I also started reading John Toland's The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire. I'm about 200 pages in and am shocked by the incredible series of misunderstandings, missed opportunities, and even mistranslations that, at least in part, led to the war with Japan.

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/14/2014 2:57:34 PM

Trugrit

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Welcome to WITPAE,

These are two books I highly recommend:

"Fire in the Sky: The Air War in the South Pacific" by Eric Bergerud.

"Touched with Fire: The Land War in the South Pacific" by Eric Bergerud.

< Message edited by Trugrit -- 12/14/2014 3:59:11 PM >

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/14/2014 7:51:26 PM

berto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

These are two books I highly recommend:

"Fire in the Sky: The Air War in the South Pacific" by Eric Bergerud.

"Touched with Fire: The Land War in the South Pacific" by Eric Bergerud.

+1

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/14/2014 8:25:11 PM

Bamilus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: epidemic

Thanks again to all that replied. After considering your advice and reading AARs (and watching "The Pacific" series), I bought War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition last night. I'm now getting the game set up and starting in on the manual. I also started reading John Toland's The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire. I'm about 200 pages in and am shocked by the incredible series of misunderstandings, missed opportunities, and even mistranslations that, at least in part, led to the war with Japan.

Great book and great game. I haven't had the time to play WITP:AE but I'm glad I bought it if only to support the developers. Hope you enjoy both.

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RE: WITE or WITP-AE? - 12/15/2014 3:32:00 PM

Ostwindflak

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Congrats on the purchase epidemic, you sound like the type of person who will enjoy WitP AE. I have had the game for over a year and in that time have been playing a campaign as the Allies off and on. I may not play for a month, but when I have the time to sit down I will play for a few hours at a time.

I can say with conviction that WitP AE is the only game I own where I dread hitting the "end turn" button. I second and triple guess myself all the time as I have found the littlest oversight or something I missed in the SIGint report can lead to something awful.

It truly is a remarkable game and a labor of love. Put the time in on learning from the forums and the manual, mostly from the vast knowledge of the many experienced players, and the game will be a classic and a go to game for many years to come.

Good luck!

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