Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Unit strength question

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Unit strength question Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Unit strength question - 12/11/2014 12:50:44 AM   
Christolos


Posts: 953
Joined: 4/24/2014
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline

What is the difference between the attack strength shown on the unit icon on the map, the attack strength listed in the unit report, and the attack strength shown in the unit panel.

The example in the SS below shows a unit icon attack strength of 10, attack:20 in the unit report, and an attack of 10+8 in the unit panel. Which attack value is actually used in combat, if this is a valid question.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by CC1 -- 12/11/2014 2:41:08 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Unit strength question - 12/11/2014 2:15:26 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
I can tell you that the "10+8" is the anti-personnel(10) + the anti-armour(8) strengths.

Otherwise I just treat the strength points as a relative value - the seem to scale with the size of a game - so a Corps might have strength 10-10 in one game, and a platoon might have 20-20 in another - but the platoon is not twice as strong as the corps!! But the 10-10 corps will be twice the strength of a 5-5 unit of any size in its game, and the 20-20 platoon twice that of a 10-10 unit in its game.

I think.....

(in reply to Christolos)
Post #: 2
RE: Unit strength question - 12/11/2014 11:02:35 AM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline
And please note that neither is used directly in the combat calculations. They are merely indicators for the player to gauge the relative strength of units.

Best wishes,
Steve

_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 3
RE: Unit strength question - 12/15/2014 7:51:41 PM   
awbergs

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 4/23/2013
Status: offline
The 20 is the sum of all attack values: anti-armor, -personnel, -air (high), and -air (low). I don't know if arty would be included. But I pretty much just use the strength on the counter. I like that things feel less exact and that I can plan more on instinct, and the outcome tends to match expectations. If I want to be more careful though, I do give some basic thought to unit equipment (what I have vs. what I'm going up against; if i have enough anti-armor equipment to counter their armor, etc).

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 4
RE: Unit strength question - 12/15/2014 9:14:44 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
I expect only Norm knows exactly what is going on with these numbers. I've seen some units that have larger Artillery strengths than Anti-Personnel strengths. Part of it, of course, can be due to conversion of reals to integers - rounding/truncating, etc. Regardless, they are only to enable the player to estimate the strength of their units. The actual values used in combat are derived from the equipment parameters.

Note that there is another complicating factor that can be overlooked: See 19.2 in the manual. Some equipment get more shots than others. For example, motorized equipment gets 3 shots for every 1 or 2 shots by infantry. So, tank units tend to be deceptively stronger than their numbers indicate, relative to infantry units.

(in reply to awbergs)
Post #: 5
RE: Unit strength question - 12/16/2014 5:54:12 PM   
kmitahj

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: awbergs
The 20 is the sum of all attack values: anti-armor, -personnel, -air (high), and -air (low). [...]

Just by accident. I did think along the same lines initially. In fact I thought so until recently when I decided to spend some time to find an algo to calculate basic strengths (AP, AT, DEF etc.) based on unit's equipment list (and other unit attributes) in a way which is consistent with numbers displayed by TOAW gui.

There are many different strengths used within TOAW engine, all calculated by the same basic procedure (let's call it CalcUnitStrength). Amongst them are basic strengths as AT (anti-tank), AP, AA(l), AA(h), DEF, ARTY and some more exotic which we would rather call capabilities: Recce, Engineering, RailRepair, Minor/Major Ferries, AirmobileLift, TrafficControl...
For GUI related purposes basic strengths (AT,AP,AA l/h, DEF) are scaled down from raw numbers provided by CalcUnitStrength. Lets call APraw unit's anti-personal strength calculated via basic procedure. APgui value (used on unit icons, in upper-right UnitBox, and in 'Strengths' sub-panel of UnitReport dialog) is derived from APraw:
IF APraw > 0 THEN APgui := 1 + INT(APraw/ScalingDivisor) ELSE APgui := 0 END;
To find out ScalingDivisor for given scenario TOAW scans through all units (of both forces) looking for highest value among unit's AP and DEF values. Then ScalingDivisor := INT(MaxAPOrDEFValue/30. In unlikely special case when all scenario AP,DEF values are < 30 no scaling is needed and so ScalingDiviosr is set to 1. For example for my test case scenario (DNO) max APraw=2185, max DEFraw=2663 so ScalingDivisor:= INT(2663/30) = 88;
The goal here is to have gui basic strength values normalized (mostly) within 0-31 range. Note however that only AP and DEF are used to find out scaling divisor (which makes sense as these are the only two painted directly on unit's icons) so at least in theory one can construct scenarios with unit's ATgui (or AA or ARTY) values > 31 (with unit using equipment for which AT > AP, DEF values).
Back to raw values. APraw is sum of APraw values calculated for each equipment line (that is EquipAP * EquipNumber). However each such value may be modified by various factors depending on given equipment capabilities as defined by equipment flags (also note that EquipAP values used here are as seen by TOAW engine which may be different from "uncooked" values in Equipment database file). Finally per unit modifiers are applied (like proficiency/readieness/supply, Global Shock/Handicap etc...)
Here comes important point: there is only one strength calculating procedure but it has a parameter which defines the context from which the procedure was called (like GUI context or combat resolution context(s)). Depending on the context provided some of the modifiers are skipped. For that reason even APraw or DEFraw values calculated in GUI context are not exactly the same as used inside combat resolution procedure.
And as last niusanse: for GUI purposes raw values are calculated with assumption of zero range. So if an arty unit has combination of tubes of differnet ranges then actual AP value used in combat maybe much less then one would expect based on value displayed by GUI (same for air units with planes of different range).

Now knowing the above: what the Attack number is? "By eye" in my test case scenario it is usually equal or only slightly larger (by 1 or 2) then APgui+ATgui value (however for very small units you shall be able to find reverse case: for such units all Attack=APgui=ATgui=1 thus Attack< APgui+ATgui).
It turns out that amongst many Strengths defined inside TOAW engine there is one "composed" Strength called (you guessed) "Attack" which is simple sum of (EquipAP+EquipAT)*EquipNumber for all unit's equipment items adjusted only by per-unit modifiers. That is in this case there is no per-equipment modifiers applied at all. This is one source of difference, the second are rounding effects of INT arithmetic: scaling down separately AP and AT and then adding them up will in general give slightly different result then scaling down sum of the two.
Is such combined "attack" strength used somewhere besides the GUI? - frankly I don't know as I didn't checked it yet. If I had to guess: it may be (just maybe) useful in calculating A.R. value (Assault Ratio) for which raw, unmodified (by terrain etc.) values are supposed to be used. Or it may be just a leftover without any use besides that specific GUI place. To be investigated in due time I guess...

As an example of difference between "Attack" and AP+AT combination here is one of possible test cases: find a unit for which APCs are present in large number comparing to other equipment. Then change unit's Order Emphasis from Minimize to Ignore Losses and observe AP, AT and Attack values. Note that if you change Emphass from within UnitReport dialog you will have to close and reopen the dialog again to observe any changes (no autorefresh). If you have chosen right unit (APC-heavy) and have a bit of luck you shall observe changes on AP and/or AT values but will never see any change in Attack number of UnitReport panel. It is because OrderEmphasis is one of modifiers applied for APC equipment (even in GUI context) but as said above there is no per-equipment modifiers applied to "Attack" strength. Of course it is not a hard proof - mere a hint of difference between AP+AT and that composed "Attack" strength.





(in reply to awbergs)
Post #: 6
RE: Unit strength question - 12/17/2014 3:21:39 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
Kapitan Kloss!

Good seeing you around... the actor from 'Stawka większa niż życie', Stanisław Mikulski, died on the 27th November. :(

Klink, Oberst

_____________________________

My Blog & on Twitter.
Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

(in reply to kmitahj)
Post #: 7
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Unit strength question Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.686